Japan 2019 - Pool C - Argentina England France Tonga USA

First topic message reminder :

Team	Played	Won	Drawn	Lost	Tries	PF	PA	+/-	BP	Points
England	2	2	0	0	11	80	10	70	2	10
Argentina	2	1	0	1	6	49	35	14	2	6
France	1	1	0	0	0	2	23	21	2	4
USA	1	0	0	1	1	7	45	-38	0	0
Tonga	2	0	0	2	2	17	63	-46	0	0

France 23-21 Argentina                  
England 35-3 Tonga      
England 45-7 United States
Argentina 28-14 Tonga                       


2 October 2019                   France v United States                 Fukuoka Hakatanomori Stadium, Fukuoka
5 October 2019                   England v Argentina                    Tokyo Stadium, Chōfu
6 October 2019                   France v Tonga                            Kumamoto Stadium, Kumamoto
9 October 2019                   Argentina v United States             Kumagaya Rugby Stadium, Kumagaya
12 October 2019                 England v France                         International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
13 October 2019                 United States v Tonga                  Hanazono Rugby Stadium, Higashiōsaka

I simply cannot stand Huget...

There are not many players more unlikeable in world rugby than Huget.

He should be on a football pitch not a rugby one! I'm amazed his own teammates don't give him an earful for his behaviour. I would if he was on my team!

America are good enough to be competitive in the middle of the field. France aren't good enough to get beyond it

3point game.

Not many saw this coming, only Mae!

We'll learn more about France from the Tonga game than this one, but it's poor by France to only be 12-9 up at this stage.

England were much changed against USA and put a lot more points on them than this. Are USA looking better for alreadying having had that first runout?

Regardless the only thing we'll be able to glean from the two USA matches is that England have the stronger second string.

... they finally get the idea that they probably better get on an win this one just in case they lose it....

eirebilly wrote:I simply cannot stand Huget...

I agree, footballer surely?

What is this saluting all about?

I like him. Come on Huget! Don't let the basterdes get you down...

Killer blow for the USA you'd think. Will be interesting to see if France can now go on and secure the bonus point.

TightHEAD wrote:What is this saluting all about?

To their President - Napoleon Macron.

I dislike it

I salute your circumspection on the topic

Bonus point try. Timed to perfection by the French...

All teams have played 2.

England - 10
France - 9
Argentina - 6
Tonga - 0
USA - 0

Tonga and USA aren't mathematically out, but they'll probably be safe to book their flights now.

If England beat Argentina on Saturday, Argentina will be mathematically out, England will be mathematically through and France will just be looking to avert disaster against Tonga on Sunday to join them.

If Argentina can turn over England then bonus points will become important - especially if England get a losing bonus point. France will need to target one against Tonga, while Argentina will have to target one against the USA to match the points England took. Both France and Argentina will be on slightly shorter turnarounds, although France played a weaker team today so should be on full strength.

I honestly cant see England loosing to either France or Argentina to be honest. England will win with TBP's every game.

eirebilly wrote:I honestly cant see England loosing to either France or Argentina to be honest. England will win with TBP's every game.

We don't have too, but I'll take two comfortable boring wins.

eirebilly wrote:I honestly cant see England loosing to either France or Argentina to be honest. England will win with TBP's every game.

In 2015 I thought we would win both our (big) games though. We had beaten both in the 12 months previously.

I'm more confident than I was in 2015, because the teams we are playing are that much weaker. And two more TBP's shouldn't be out the question. But, it's still a World Cup and until qualification is assured I won't be counting any chickens.

I am in a paradoxical situation at the moment. I am far more worried about playing France than Argentina, but only because I am worried that if we lose to Argentina the pressure is on... and we don't respond well to pressure! On the other hand, I am not massively worried about playing Argentina because their pack looks soft and overall they look a poor team. England have all the tools to beat them, and really should do it, but I have said this kind of thing before!

It is a strange situation I find myself in.

If Saturday was an autumn game at Twickenham I wouldn't give Argentina a hope in hell. But obviously it isn't, so there are nerves. Hopefully just from us on here, and not with the players!

Thinks USA can consider themselves a bit hard done by - how France didn't get a YC in the first half after numerous infringements in the red zone is a mystery - plus there was a blatant forward pass in the build up to France's 3rd try.

Yeah silly card offences and all bets can go out the window (although we did a number on Argentina in an AI with 14 vs 15 thanks to the Daly red card).

It is not impossible but England will have to play really badly to lose either.

lostinwales wrote:Yeah silly card offences and all bets can go out the window (although we did a number on Argentina in an AI with 14 vs 15 thanks to the Daly red card).

It is not impossible but England will have to play really badly to lose either.

Did we only have 14, I thought we had the full compliment with the May twins on the wings

Not surprising from France. So potent, yet utterly disorganised, and eminently beatable for both England and Wales.

I thiink they'll wise up and give England a good game, but can't see them threatening a win. 15 point win for England.

USA had them on the ropes, and they went for points each time. Decent team, but totally incapable of stringing passes together in attack while running forwards. 13 looked a threat, 15 was like a mini Basteraued, but wasn't impressed by McGinty. Some decent, workmanlike players for the USA, but I think they should have opted for a scrum from at least one of those penalties about 8m out and just tried to get a score. In the end, that lack of try threat did for them.

The penalty that took it to 12-9 sharpened France up, as did replacements. Just kept it tight, bashed away, and abou 15 phases and 50m later, wrapped up the game. It took that to focus French minds. But what was a penalty to make it a 3 point gme here could be the kick that gives France's opposition a 3 score lead against proper opposition.

Just don't see it in France. Lose admirably to England, and might gve Wales a test up front, but literally all you ever have to do against them is make them clear. Make them make as many 'transitions' - exits, restarts - as possible and they WILL f it up. They will fall on their own sword time and time again.

England likely to just blow them away in first quarter.

miaow wrote:Not surprising from France. So potent, yet utterly disorganised, and eminently beatable for both England and Wales.

I thiink they'll wise up and give England a good game, but can't see them threatening a win. 15 point win for England.

USA had them on the ropes, and they went for points each time. Decent team, but totally incapable of stringing passes together in attack while running forwards. 13 looked a threat, 15 was like a mini Basteraued, but wasn't impressed by McGinty. Some decent, workmanlike players for the USA, but I think they should have opted for a scrum from at least one of those penalties about 8m out and just tried to get a score. In the end, that lack of try threat did for them.

The penalty that took it to 12-9 sharpened France up, as did replacements. Just kept it tight, bashed away, and abou 15 phases and 50m later, wrapped up the game. It took that to focus French minds. But what was a penalty to make it a 3 point gme here could be the kick that gives France's opposition a 3 score lead against proper opposition.

Just don't see it in France. Lose admirably to England, and might gve Wales a test up front, but literally all you ever have to do against them is make them clear. Make them make as many 'transitions' - exits, restarts - as possible and they WILL f it up. They will fall on their own sword time and time again.

England likely to just blow them away in first quarter.

People were worried about France and Argentina as "tournament teams" before the World Cup. Even though their form was poor, they normally raise it for World Cups. They still could, but neither have done much so far. I'd be surprised if either beat England and I'd be surprised if France therefore beat whoever they played in the quarters (most likely Wales).

I think both still are tournament teams. They're better than they have been and have raised their games. I can guarantee Argentina will give England hell for 50-60 minutes, and I'm certain France will play decently up front against England...but maybe they'd prefer to lose and face the easyside of the draw, with Wales and no NZ? Bring that on, I say.

The issue is it's a group of death. Argentina/France are used to cruising or scraping past the minnows, then shocking someone who tops their group - like Ireland. Or they get past someone like Scotland and, once in the semi final, have something to play for. Argentina's best finish is 3rd, no, in 2007? Who did they beat? France in the groups, Scotland in the QF, then lost the semi final to SA. It's often just a case of the draw being kind to teams that then 'creates' a tournament team. France are yet to actually win a RWC - the fact they've knocked out the NZ bottlers a few times skews how good they actually are, and how much of a threat they should be in WCs. They're always big and strong and that's sometimes enough for the luck to go their way.

This WC, Argentina specifically have suffered where Japan have not. Japanese players have barely played pro rugby all year, instead training in house. Occasional Super Rugby performances. The Jaguares excelled in Super Rugby, but then almost took breathers when they joined up with Argentina. They've been poor for a while, and last summer's tour games from Wales and Scotland were warning signs that Ledesma isn't really up to the job, and Argentina aren't what they might be.

They both have something to offer, but they look a bit like Scotland to me - half a gameplan. A fit, firing, and well drilled tier 1 nation should have enough to beat them in 4th gear with relative 'ease'.

Haven't really seen Tonga fire any meaningful shot yet, but I fancy their chances against France today. Probably won't win, but I think we'll see a bit more from them in attack. Push them close for 60 minutes, at least. This will be 'their' game - the one they targeted.

Nicely worked try for France.

there are some big men for Tonga in the back line.

That Raka reminds me of a young Goneva. What a player.

France lead by 10 points at half time.

Could we see a Tonga fight back in the second half?

Brilliant, Brilliant try by Tonga.

France are a mob!!!

We see it all the time, but when a defender wraps their arms around the tackled player, either side of the body, how are they competing for the ball and how can the attacker ever release the ball?

French club rugby doesn’t do anything for Pacific island players, they’re all knackered. It’s no coincidence their best players play elsewhere.

Not great from France. Well done to Tonga.
France through. Who will finish top of the group, we shall see next weekend.

The Frogs are useless. No sweat for England next week. Hope Jones rests anyone who isn’t 100%.

Well France won but only just, 23-21 Tong nearly caused an up set.

But well done France a win is a win after all.

France will certainly be up for it. Again, all depends which France turn up. Wouldn’t get to cocky.

You would expect England to win. France though are a strange one.

All these statements about ‘depends which France turns up’ are years out of date. France have been average at best for ages. England will beat them easily. As will Wales in the 1/4s.

We shall see. Will be interesting.

I expect France to crumble at some point. I wouldn't even discount (sadly) yet another card as someone else tries to take Farrell's head off.

The question is will this happen from the start if we get a couple of tries early on, or will they put together some of their best moves for the first 20 minutes or so.

People will talk about the Calcutta Cup, but that's twice this World Cup France have threatened to throw away good starts against weaker teams. And you can couple that with them doing the same against Wales at home in the Six Nations - who were good enough to complete the comeback and win the game.

Fitness issue? Mentality issue?

Then the USA game was the other way round- although they made a lot of changes. Is squad depth the problem? Although against Argentina and Tonga the slide came in before the bench was used.

France have shown glimpses of their beat especially with Raka on the wing, but they haven't shown they have the 80 minute game to compete with anyone in the top 6 in the world, which is an issue as we move into this stage of the world cup.

Mid-day temperatures in Tokyo were ove 30 degrees. 24 hours later, they were 20 degrees. I've seen a lot written about how teams which can best adapt to the conditions will thrive but the truth is, they are volatile.

When England play France in Yokahama next week, the forecast is for a return to the high 20s, and occasional showers. Whichever quarter-final we get, it will be in Oita under a closed roof, which has so far been a bit of a greenhouse.

However, by the time of the semi-finals nearly three weeks aways, we could have more seasonal weather like we saw in Tokyo today. There'll be no advantage for teams which have adapted to conditions which no longer exist.

I think we have to be cautious about reading too much into France’s result. Bear in mind that this was their 4-day turnaround game and they now have a full week before meeting England.

I still think England should have the ability to win the game comfortably if they can maintain control of the tempo and not get sucked into an open game.

Agreed with Poorfour. Particularly from a Welsh perspective. France will do 'what they need to' to win. Expect different team against England, but even then, they know losing might benefit them - Wales and SA instead of Oz and NZ.

France can beat Wales. Their physical power means, if conditions are sloppy, and it's hard to string phases together, their set piece and power game can be hard to beat. It also means turnovers, and they still look a threat when the game breaks up. They probably have the best 3 scrum halves in the tournament - Wales might have pushed them close with Webb, and the All Blacks' 9s are good as well. But that strength alone makes them a threat.

Said it for years, but if you make France do exit after exit, and make them play a transitional game, and keep them pinned back down in their half, they hate it. And you should win easily.

Difference between France in the last 12-18 months and the previous 6-7 years is they do actually look capable of pulling out one off performances. They were awful 4 years ago. They were still pretty bad 8 years ago. Now, there's a bit more to them. They're just far from a finished product.

Miaow I don’t think France so called physical power is a key of their game plan anymore... look at their forwards, they are one of the lightest scrum around (and one of the poorest as well). They are trying to morph their game on something where speed and movement are essential (hence the replacement of the likes of Picamoles by someone like Ollivon). The truth is they can’t take on teams like Tonga on a purely physical challenge anymore. They were 2nd best in all collisions today while the rucks were a free for all (not sure where this ref is coming from but he wouldn’t get a job in pro rugby over here). Today was a misery for French fans and players have only themselves to blame for the 14+ knockons. Their defense although a bit better remains suspect while their kicking game is not good enough to be a challenge against proper opposition.
As you mentioned above they are not a settled team with a clear game plan. Capable of the occasional flashy play which relies on high risk and inconsistent rugby which won’t make the cut against any settled tier 1 team (by tier 1 I mean the top 6 + maybe japan, France , Scotland and Argentina are probably in tier 1.5). Quarter final is as good as it gets for a team like that and that’s mainly down to Argentina being poorer than what they should be.

Interesting, thanks for your thoughts whocares. I'll agree totally that the lack of a good kicking game is one of France's clear weak points. If they spent even *some* time working on that, they would be a much better team - but it's the area I believe both Wales and England will look to beat France.

I do think it's hard to judge them so far though. They don't have a settled team, but maybe that helps them? It stops the players getting lazy, or losing interest, if there's a chance of starting? Dupont is the hehartbeat of the French team - if he plays well, it doesn't matter if France don't have a great #10.

I'm not writing France off just yet. There's too much talent in their team, and I think we saw an improvement under Guy Noves that suggests the tide was turning, and France are slowly making their way back to the top table again. I wouldn't be shocked to see France make a semi final - even if, for selfish reasons, I hope they don't!

France have of not played very well at all in this Rugby World Cup, but if go back and look at France in the past 2/3 6 nations, France all ways seem to have at least 1 good game up their sleeve. So maybe next week's game against England could be the game that show France could be a dangerous team.

Although England are through all ready they should not take this game lightly. England need to to their game plan and play to win the game and not take it for granted that the game is in the bag.

I don't think France care who they meet in a QF, whether it's Wales or Australia.  It's much of a muchness.  They've been mostly beaten by both in the last number of meetings (one win out of the last five meetings each between those two sides).  There's usually not that much of a gap in scorelines in recent times but Australia seem to have a bigger edge in putting the points on than Wales.

But overall, does France really have to expend energy against England to try to avoid any particular QF opponent?  I think they'll be content enough to just be through, as usual.  WC for them then begins in earnest.  Not saying they won't try to win against England.  But will France do a full bodies-on-the-line effort?  Not so sure.

SecretFly wrote:I don't think France care who they meet in a QF, whether it's Wales or Australia.  It's much of a muchness.  They've been mostly beaten by both in the last number of meetings (one win out of the last five meetings each between those two sides).  There's usually not that much of a gap in scorelines in recent times but Australia seem to have a bigger edge in putting the points on than Wales.

But overall, does France really have to expend energy against England to try to avoid any particular QF opponent?  I think they'll be content enough to just be through, as usual.  WC for them then begins in earnest.  Not saying they won't try to win against England.  But will France do a full bodies-on-the-line effort?  Not so sure.

I would imagine NZ are the team everyone wants to avoid as long as possible.

France last game could be a weak match up with two teams trying to lose