RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[TightHEAD]

RWC FINAL



England XV


SA XV

[mikey_dragon]

Well done TH, was about to post this myself but you’ve beat me to it. What do you think the teams will be?

[Guest]

Probably best to merge the new thread with this existing thread: https://www.606v2.com/t69165-rwc-final-england-v-wales-match-thread

[Taylorman]

They do say it’s the game played in heaven. Didn’t know they played it in Disneyland as well.

[TightHEAD]

This place would go in to melt down!

[majesticimperialman]

What make you think it would be England v Wales for third place?

It could be New Zealand v Wales.

[RiscaGame]

What make you think it would be England v Wales for third place?

It could be New Zealand v Wales.

What are you on about?

[majesticimperialman]

What make you think it would be England v Wales for third place?

It could be New Zealand v Wales.

What are you on about?

Oops miss read the post

[Dirtydave]

As a wales fan, this potential final makes me happy, but scares me more...

I'd love to beat England in the final moreso than NZ, but I'd also hate to lose to England moreso than NZ

[TightHEAD]

It would be epic Dave.

Its going to happen.

[Dirtydave]

I really hope you're right, and as a Welshman I will 100% be cheering England on tomorrow morning!

[TightHEAD]

Likewise with Wales vs SA, its time the NH stood up and boss this RWC. C'mon Wales

[Dirtydave]

I'm not sure Wales will have the energy, this will be their 4th game in 18 days. Especially with the power coming off the SA bench up front.

However, I watched every SA game in the RWC, and I don't think that much of them, restrict their ability to kick penalties deep in your half and they get frustrated

[TightHEAD]

Wales have AWJ Dave, SA will fear him.

[Old Man]

I'm not sure Wales will have the energy, this will be their 4th game in 18 days. Especially with the power coming off the SA bench up front.

However, I watched every SA game in the RWC, and I don't think that much of them, restrict their ability to kick penalties deep in your half and they get frustrated

Dave I think you need to dig a bit deeper.

This season in eight matches (ignoring Canada and Namibia) SA scored 19 penalties 2.75 per match, 30 tries 3.75 per match, of which 25 were scored by the backline and 5 by the forwards.

There is more to this Springbok team under Rassie than the previous Boks under Allister Coetzee.

What does frustrate the Boks and will most likely put them off their game, and that is Garces, he is pedantic and clueless most of the time.

I fear someone will be carded and that will influence the match.

[Dirtydave]

Old man

Why would you ignore Canada or Namibia, both are world cup games, and SA scored what? 7/8 maul tries in those 2 games to kill them off?

Like I said, rassie has been great at returning to values, and territory is priority number one for SA!

They have barely thrown a ball in anger in their own half in this world cup, they thrive off being given a platform, and keeping the pressure on. That pressure is entirely up front, and the likes of Pollard and De allande knocking at the direct door!

Willie has done well to be a playmaker out wider, and has put Am, Nkosi, Mpipi, and Kolbe in, but most of these tries were untouched run ins off the back of pressure up front.

Negate their platform, and they can struggle!

[Old Man]

Old man

Why would you ignore Canada or Namibia, both are world cup games, and SA scored what? 7/8 maul tries in those 2 games to kill them off?

Like I said, rassie has been great at returning to values, and territory is priority number one for SA!

They have barely thrown a ball in anger in their own half in this world cup, they thrive off being given a platform, and keeping the pressure on. That pressure is entirely up front, and the likes of Pollard and De allande knocking at the direct door!

Willie has done well to be a playmaker out wider, and has put Am, Nkosi, Mpipi, and Kolbe in, but most of these tries were untouched run ins off the back of pressure up front.

Negate their platform, and they can struggle!

Reason I ignored Canada and Namibia is due to the fact that it skews the numbers.


SA scored 19 tries in those two matches. Six of those were scored by forwards, however only three were from mauls.

Yes, of course SA plays off a platform, mostly from 9, and yes they attack mainly in the opposition half, however when the opportunity of counter attack is on inside their half they will take it, and have scored a number of those this year.

As far as your assertion of untouched tries, you will find the basis of scoring tries is to put your wings away into space, and although cover defense sometimes catch the outside backs it is inevitable that with enough space wingers will go over untouched.

You are correct SA forwards do most of the work, but then you have to concede many teams use their forwards with the same purpose.

All I am saying to you is if Wales only focus on our forward strengths they will lose sight of the dangers out wide. And judging by our number of tries being scored out wide, that might be a problem for them.

[BamBam]

TightHEAD you've got the date wrong mate, the final is on the 2nd

[Dirtydave]

Old man

I never said to ignore the backline, I said negate their platform.

[TightHEAD]

TightHEAD you've got the date wrong mate, the final is on the 2nd

Looks like another case of over moderation, but in this case its probably more realistic!

[TightHEAD]

Ford or Farrell at 10 for the final?

[TightHEAD]

So Ford or Farrell?

[Guest]

On to the final then - hard to look past an England win all things considered, particularly as there haven't been too many upsets this WC.

[Guest]

Some key questions over injuries as well.

Have to wait and see who comes out of the SFs fit.

Questions marks over a few English players - May, Farrell, Nowell, and of course Heinz has gone for Spencer. Attritional SF took it out of them.

Same for SA but few signs of injury bar bumps and bruises. Perhaps the key question is Cheslin Kolbe. Nkosi didn't get a sniff and looked average at all the extra bits - kick recepit, kicking, tackling etc. Kolbe is the kind of wizard, the kind of 'out' ball, that can be the difference between SA holding on in vain, and putting England to the sword. So big call over him.

[Poorfour]

The England player I’m most worried about is Sinckler. England have options to replace everyone else, some of who offer as much or more physicality even if they lose a little in guile and skill - but the closest we have to a spare tighthead is Marler, and I don’t think South Africa are the ideal team against whom to find out whether he can do it or not.

[majesticimperialman]

Two team's that have different styles of play. If England play like they did against NZ i can only see an England win. But how many injuries do England actually have?

SA have some very big hard hitting players,( big lumps) it will be interesting how England will play this one. What with EJ being at the game today he will have picked up some nice tips on how SA will play against England.

Did SA pick up any injuries that could alter the game in England's favour. Will Cheslin Kobe be availible?

[Poorfour]

On to the final then - hard to look past an England win all things considered, particularly as there haven't been too many upsets this WC.

That’s an odd thing to say, given Japan’s performances against Ireland and Scotland, Uruguay’s win over Fiji, Fiji’s win over Georgia, the USA’s win over Tonga. As long as you weren’t exclusively focused on Tier 1 nations, there’s been an upset in every round bar the quarter finals - but that was offset by both semi-finals going against rankings and tournament form.

I am hoping for an England win, and I think they have enough to do it if they can take the game to South Africa. I also think that Eddie has them mentally ready to raise their game again... but we will have to see if the physical toll of the semi-final leaves them with too many key players sidelined.

[SecretFly]

Two team's that have different styles of play. If England play like they did against NZ i can only see an England win. But how many injuries do England actually have?

Well maybe. But let's try this. NZ thought they might have been hijacked by Ireland so they gave us the kitchen sink in that game. England thought NZ were going to be the most dangerous team they played so they gave NZ the kitchen sink.
SA now fear that England might embarrass them, so maybe they'll throw the kitchen sink at the final.

How many kitchen sinks are left? Biggest kweskin!

[lostinwales]

One more thing about England. We have been a little under the radar coming into the RWC. Expected to do well but ... starting with the 6N and looking back over the last couple of years there have been a few failures.

When this RWC is done and regardless of the result next Saturday there will be a fair few English players in the team of the tournament and ranked amongst the best in the world.

[Guest]

I would expect England to kick the ball a lot more against this SA team that they did against NZ, maj.

[Poorfour]

Two team's that have different styles of play. If England play like they did against NZ i can only see an England win. But how many injuries do England actually have?

Well maybe.  But let's try this.  NZ thought they might have been hijacked by Ireland so they gave us the kitchen sink in that game.  England thought NZ were going to be the most dangerous team they played so they gave NZ the kitchen sink.
SA now fear that England might embarrass them, so maybe they'll throw the kitchen sink at the final.

How many kitchen sinks are left?  Biggest kweskin!

It is indeed. If England find themselves short of their big Sinck, I will be much less confident going into the final. But I doubt anyone will be throwing him anywhere. For one thing, he’s a lifter, not a jumper.

[TightHEAD]

Think he'll start with Ford for his tactical kicking, SA didn't offer much to be honest but then again they didn't have too.

[maestegmafia]

Well done South Africa in an immense match you were hard fought victors

Good luck in the final

Let’s hope wales can do the first win over the all blacks in a very long time.

What a brilliant Rugby World cup

[No 7&1/2]

Going to have to go back to the match in the ais and remind myself of the tactics there. That was the match jones deliberately cut the preparation for practicing for the group stage from memory.

[maestegmafia]

Good luck to both teams this going to be an incredible finale to a wonderful RWC.

What a wonderful game we have

[Guest]

On to the final then - hard to look past an England win all things considered, particularly as there haven't been too many upsets this WC.

That’s an odd thing to say, given Japan’s performances against Ireland and Scotland, Uruguay’s win over Fiji, Fiji’s win over Georgia, the USA’s win over Tonga. As long as you weren’t exclusively focused on Tier 1 nations, there’s been an upset in every round bar the quarter finals - but that was offset by both semi-finals going against rankings and tournament form.

In my mind there have been fewer upsets than previous tournaments, but perhaps not? Certainly tier 1 there has been, but compared to the undercards, it would make an interesting comparison. Perhaps no 'big' upsets would be the fair call - Japan are barely tier 2, for instance, on home turf and all that comes with it. It's not like Wales losing to Fiji or England going out in the groups. Likewise, the QF and SF results have all gone as expected - apart from England beating NZ. But was that a huge upset? Did anyone think that was impossible? Far from it. Maybe it's just a sign that there is a real mix of ability and form among the top nations now, and there are fewer favourites/underdogs in tier 1 matches.

[Guest]

Forgot about Sinckler.

Yes, agreed he would be a big, big loss. Cole is decent, but as part of a duo. Sicnkler - as we saw v Australia - is one of the key carrying strike runners along with Jamie George. Has enough short distance speed and power to get through a weak tackle, through a gap, and then has the hands to deliver the pass. Cannot see Cole doing any of that, and fewer options means fewer chances and breaks from others as well.

There is no reserve TH, yes? It would be Genge on to the bench with Marler at #18?

[BamBam]

Thanks for setting up the match thread TightHEAD

[TightHEAD]

Hope so this has been a great competition and deserves a great final.

[No 7&1/2]

Maes rather than post on both of these why not just get rid of one and join it up.

[TightHEAD]

Thanks for setting up the match thread TightHEAD

No worries Bam

[TightHEAD]

Hope Spencer is up to it. Massive opportunity for him

[Guest]

Going to have to go back to the match in the ais and remind myself of the tactics there. That was the match jones deliberately cut the preparation for practicing for the group stage from memory.

A game decided by controversy and fine margins of a refereeing call at the death.

Can see England's forwards having a tough old time against the Boks. SA play similar rugby to Wales and Ireland, soaking up pressure, swamping the opposition, competing at the breakdown.

England's kicking game seems well placed to counter that - particularly as they have superior kickers in their team. Pollard is decent, Le Roux is decent, but Farrell is better.

[No 7&1/2]

Oh no match is decided by 1 refs decision. Far more to it than that. That simply ignores all the decisions and mistakes and moments of luck and brilliance in the rest of the game. An easy way out.

[TightHEAD]

For this game think I would have gone for Wigglesworth.

[Guest]

Of course,that goes without saying. We both know that's a bit facile. But, ultimately, the ref gave an absolue homer of a decision, as Peyper did with Farrell on Rodda (?) ("your played dipped the shoulder also"). It happens.

If there are parallels to draw between NZ and SA - both 1 point losses, no - and that NZ probably showed more fear/respect of Ireland over England, which was misplaced, might SA bring their A game and be fizzing at the right time - payback for, admittedly, what was a friendly game, but one that was, ultimately, decided by a refereeing decision rather than a successful or unsuccessful kick at goal.

[No 7&1/2]

So we agree that it wasnt a game decided by that moment then or not? Personally though that tackle was ok and the rodda one a pen try and likely yellow. We beat sa so 1 point win think that's what you meant? I mean for instance that's the same game as snyman s shoulder to kruis' head. Easy to ignore other mistakes or misses and point to 1 instance.
Anyway the reason I wanted to go back was no couldn't remember the to and fro and how each team approached it albeit with england deliberately handicapping.

[Guest]

Well it wasn't solely decided by the shoulder charge non-call - as obviously there are 79 minutes of rugby played before then - but that, ultimately, i.e. at the end, that decision did decide the game.

[Soul Requiem]

A game is decided by multiple moments throughout it.

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