RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[Taylorman]

Yes, picked Youngs to be the weak link for England before the match. Luckily others played to higher standards. He’s also been poor on previous AB tests, some time ago now though. Am surprised England’s really had he and Care for how long? Ten years or so? Seems like it anyway.

[LondonTiger]

There were some good reasons that Youngs was "slow" to the breakdown as discussed on the match thread.

He kicked less last week (but to better effect) with the game plan being to move the ball some distance from the breakdown. There were a lot of longer passes off both hands delivered flat and fast and accurately. Something in the past he has failed to do.

He completely negated anything and everything Smith tried to do. While I am biased, I am also at times quick to criticise Lenny. Since the start of last season he has been good for England, delivering the game plan Eddie has asked for but poor for Leicester due to continuing to play in the same manner.

I wish he would run more, like he used to, but Eddie has his demands. He has worked very hard to be the scrum half that Eddie wants, the effect of which has reduced his own attacking highlights reel to the overall benefit of the side.

That he has been the starting SH at 3 World Cups for 3 different coaches is quite telling.

[yappysnap]

Actually I think you're pretty correct there LT. He's not perfect but thinking back on it his passing was very good off both hands and when he was at the rucks he kept the pressure on NZ.

He is quality and perhaps the criticism is due to him never quite living up to his intial promise.

And obviously Care was far better and should be there, Youngs is a distant 2nd

[No 7&1/2]

Thing is miaow when you say these things now I go away and double check to make sure I'm correct. You expect englsnd to win. It's ok to write it down!
Youngs has got better than the warm ups thankfully. Painfully slow to the ruck and at making a decision particularly in the first half though.

[No 7&1/2]

Sam Burgess has retired. Could have been such a good blind side if he'd stuck around.

[LondonTiger]

Actually I think you're pretty correct there LT. He's not perfect but thinking back on it his passing was very good off both hands and when he was at the rucks he kept the pressure on NZ.

He is quality and perhaps the criticism is due to him never quite living up to his intial promise.

And obviously Care was far better and should be there, Youngs is a distant 2nd

[George Carlin]

Have updated the OP with some stats because the head to head is interesting to see.

[TightHEAD]

Good work someone had to since someones interest has diminished in the RWC.

[LondonTiger]

Well, I have read a number of articles now suggesting that Ford should be on the bench due to his defensive deficiencies.

[TightHEAD]

The same people that wanted him on the bench vs NZ.

How many tackles has Ford missed this RWC out of interest?

[lostinwales]

Well, I have read a number of articles now suggesting that Ford should be on the bench due to his defensive deficiencies.

Some of the authors should probably be locked in a seat like Alex in a clockwork orange with a loop tape of Ford ripping the ball off the New Zealand no.3.

[LondonTiger]

To be fair, reading Telegraph article at the moment - and it is not just defensive issues. Some saying he will be more effective off the bench when the "big" SA pack tires - ignoring that they will have an entire front 5 to bring on, some suggesting he has yet to prove himself when the team is not playing well.

Too many seem to be suggesting that to beat SA we need to mimic them - which frankly is Love sacks.

[Scottrf]

Why do people keep calling the SA pack big?

[Duty281]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/oct/30/england-sweat-on-kyle-sinckler-after-restricted-part-in-training-session

Doesn't sound too promising for Sinckler.

[TightHEAD]

Why do people keep calling the SA pack big?

Because the media are lazy and relying on rugby myths to make up their stories whilst they pretend they are interested.

[robbo277]

It's the metres he concedes, not the tackles he misses (as that is not many). With SA's forwards and De Allende more likely to target his channel, Farrell is less likely to concede ground and let SA create a platform. Stop them getting on the front foot and the Wales game shows they have very few ideas other than kick poorly.

I see the merit, but I'd prefer to keep Ford in there for the control he brings. South Africa kicked a lot against Wales, but not accurately. If we keep Ford in there and can win the kicking duel we can control the territory.

It will be interesting to see how we work our kicking and chasing strategy, against Australia we wanted them to run infield into where our defence was strongest. Against NZ we tried to get them wide to shove them into touch. Against SA I think we'll see quite a few to compete, rather than giving them the option of running at all.

[Gooseberry]

It's not that long ago that half the board was saying Youngs needed to be benched for Heinz, and prior to that that England were mad for taking only two SHs because Youngs might need dropping.
Oh Taylor he was at 9 for the 2014 game against NZ, Tuillagi at 13 ( not 12) too.

You could colour me amazed if we dont see Ford start the final given the way England came through in the semi, and how instrumental he was to that. It may be a very different opposition but England will want to focus on having their best players on the pitch now theyve shown this line up can deliver in attack and defence.

Mind I said the opposite before the semi

[Scottrf]

Would be a big mistake to bench Ford considering the form of our FHs and how much it helps vary our attack.

[TightHEAD]

Why should we match SA, we have the players to be 20 points up at half time if we back ourselves.

Maybe that's arrogant but its true.

[robbo277]

The only argument I could see for benching Ford would be if you wanted to finish with your strongest team instead of start.

The Sinckler news isn't the best, but I'm sure if there was serious doubt then Williams would be in Japan, even if he was sat in a hotel room waiting for a call.

Edit: I guess we dont know that Williams isn't out in Japan. As Exeter played Friday he could have flown without announcement as hes only going as cover? But he's not their officially in any case.

[Gooseberry]

The only argument I could see for benching Ford would be if you wanted to finish with your strongest team instead of start.

The Sinckler news isn't the best, but I'm sure if there was serious doubt then Williams would be in Japan, even if he was sat in a hotel room waiting for a call.

Edit: I guess we dont know that Williams isn't out in Japan. As Exeter played Friday he could have flown without announcement as hes only going as cover? But hes not their officially in any case.

I mean you could always just leave him on for 80 minutes 

Sinckler would be a loss, but from what I read hes in light training which suggests its pretty minor. I guess he could end up getting benched to reduce the risk of a mid game tear. Sounds like both Farrell and May should be fine. 

England have been very fortunate with injuries in this world cup. You do make your own luck to some extent in that regard through good player management, high levels of fitness and winning games at a canter, but its still a huge plus for them. Wales' casualty list reads like a pals regiment at the Somme.

[robbo277]

They could leave Ford on for the 80, but I think Farrell and Manu are their 80 minute players in that midfield, which would mean Slade and Joseph into the back 3 on the current bench. Possible. Or someone could go unused.

I'd say they might start Sinckler still as they did with May. Get him to run himself out then replace him. May, for example, would be no good on the bench because if he came on and could only do 10 minutes it would cost another sub.

But then being a prop they could have a 45 minute blast of Cole, bring Sinckler on and if he only lasted 10 they can always bring Cole back on due to the rules around props. Would allow Cole to play the lions share of the minutes then Sinckler could either close out or just give Cole a bit of a spell.

[Guest]

Why do people keep calling the SA pack big?

Because it is. Those stats on weight are clearly balls. The SA back row dwarfs any other.

[Scottrf]

The stats are wrong, brilliant. Let’s add that to Tuilagi’s awful defence.

[Soul Requiem]

The stats have both PSTD and Vermuelen at over 18.5st each while Kolisi isn't a giant by any stretch of the imagination.

[Afro]

I agree with Miaow. Some of their official weights look low to me. Think the commentators alluded to the same on Sunday

[king_carlos]

Why do people keep calling the SA pack big?

Because it is. Those stats on weight are clearly balls. The SA back row dwarfs any other.

Kitshoff - 6'0" and 120kg
Mtawarira - 6'0" and 116kg
Malherbe - 6'3" and 125kg
Koch - 6'1" and 118kg
Lood de Jager - 6'9" and 125kg
Etzebeth - 6'8" and 123kg
Snyman - 6'9" and 120kg
Mostert - 6'6" and 110kg
Pieter-Steph du Toit - 6'6" and 120kg
Vermeulen - 6'4" and 120kg

The depth and physicality of their locks is ludicrous.

It's going to be a battle of two extremely physical sides with different means of using it. South Africa use that depth and the number of carriers they have to hammer at sides around the fringes. England use their forwards to shift the point of attack around the fringes.

Kolisi at the breakdown against Underhill and Curry will be a fascinating battle. I love watching all three of them play.

Vermuelen and Billy's battle has been written about lots already.

I think that who Louw gets subbed on for will be telling of where the match is heading. If he comes on for Kolisi then SA will be comfortable at the breakdown and looking to keep their carriers on the pitch. If Louw comes on for PSdT or Vermuelen then the breakdown will likely be under pressure with England winning that key battle.

[Guest]

The stats are wrong, brilliant. Let’s add that to Tuilagi’s awful defence.

Lol. Id.

[Afro]

Kitshoff - 6'0" and 120kg
Mtawarira - 6'0" and 116kg
Malherbe - 6'3" and 125kg
Koch - 6'1" and 118kg
Lood de Jager - 6'9" and 125kg
Etzebeth - 6'8" and 123kg
Snyman - 6'9" and 120kg
Mostert - 6'6" and 110kg
Pieter-Steph du Toit - 6'6" and 120kg
Vermeulen - 6'4" and 120kg

Not sure where you took your's from, but that backs up the point of the official weights on the World Cup sites. Some of yours are 5-10 kgs heavier than the official weights.

Vermeulen's official weight is 108kg, which is ballsacks

[Guest]

Exactly. Thank you.

You could literally do a like for like and see Wales were probably shy of about 40kg on the Boks.

Pieter SDT v Wainwright: no contest
Kolisi v Tipuric: close
Vermeulen v Moriarty: no contest
AWJ & Ball v Etzebeth& LDJ: probably close here but in terms of power, youd pick the Boks, offsetting any similarity in size.
Malherbe v Francis: clearly Malherbe is fatter
Owens v Mbonambi: maybe Ken shades it
Wyn Jones v Beast: surely Beast, but Wyn is a bit fat.

It's then the bench where they're massive as well.

Marx, Mostert, Snyman, and Louw are all big for their positions.


Yet Wales were heavier in the stats?

No chance. The Boks would go under their weight classifications as a point of gamesmanship. If any team prepares for a 900kg scrum instead of a 940kg scrum, they're in for a rough old game. Not saying teams are fooled by it, but fans are, seemingly.

[protea438]

Kitshoff - 6'0" and 120kg
Mtawarira - 6'0" and 116kg
Malherbe - 6'3" and 125kg
Koch - 6'1" and 118kg
Lood de Jager - 6'9" and 125kg
Etzebeth - 6'8" and 123kg
Snyman - 6'9" and 120kg
Mostert - 6'6" and 110kg
Pieter-Steph du Toit - 6'6" and 120kg
Vermeulen - 6'4" and 120kg

Not sure where you took your's from, but that backs up the point of the official weights on the World Cup sites. Some of yours are 5-10 kgs heavier than the official weights.

Vermeulen's official weight is 108kg, which is ballsacks

On his profile it says 260 pounds. So its around 118 kg

[Guest]

SA will have just used the weights when the team was cutting. I'd imagine they are much heavier now than they were 2-3 months ago.

[Afro]

Kitshoff - 6'0" and 120kg
Mtawarira - 6'0" and 116kg
Malherbe - 6'3" and 125kg
Koch - 6'1" and 118kg
Lood de Jager - 6'9" and 125kg
Etzebeth - 6'8" and 123kg
Snyman - 6'9" and 120kg
Mostert - 6'6" and 110kg
Pieter-Steph du Toit - 6'6" and 120kg
Vermeulen - 6'4" and 120kg

Not sure where you took your's from, but that backs up the point of the official weights on the World Cup sites. Some of yours are 5-10 kgs heavier than the official weights.

Vermeulen's official weight is 108kg, which is ballsacks

On his profile it says 260 pounds

Which is 117kg. Official World Cup site, which the pack weights that flash up in the game are based on....

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/player/37137


I've pulled a load of the official weights and heights for both England and SA. Will put up what the official weights show shortly

[Afro]

SA will have just used the weights when the team was cutting. I'd imagine they are much heavier now than they were 2-3 months ago.

Same for all teams though I would have thought, so the comparison to England's official weights/heights is even more interesting

[Guest]

I'm removing this Miaow - this is potentially libellous and we cannot post comments like this on here

What did I say? Apologies, genuinely wasn't sure what I said? Roughly?

[protea438]

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Source ?


Also removed from here

[Afro]

	Heights cm		_	Weights kg
	ENG	SA	_	ENG	SA
All	188.0	191.9	_	114.9	113.3
Starting Pack	187.5	192.3	_	115.0	112.5
Starting Front Row	182.0	183.3	_	116.0	112.3
Starting second row	197.5	204.5	_	117.0	120.5
Starting back row	186.3	193.0	_	112.7	107.3
All front row	184.0	184.2	_	115.8	113.3
All second row	197.7	203.3	_	117.0	117.5
All back row	186.8	192.3	_	112.0	109.0

[king_carlos]

Having been thoroughly emasculated by standing next to Vermeulen I'd bet my life he weighs more than 108kg!

Some pro players do look remarkably normal in real life. I went through airport security coming back from Japan at the same time as the Australia squad and Michael Hooper looks fairly human for a man who dominates collisions.

Vermeulen is a mountain of a man though.

[Afro]

So England's starting pack is 2 inches per man shorter, but nearly half a stone per man heavier according to official stats, which I don't believe

[Gooseberry]

They could leave Ford on for the 80, but I think Farrell and Manu are their 80 minute players in that midfield, which would mean Slade and Joseph into the back 3 on the current bench. Possible. Or someone could go unused.

I'd say they might start Sinckler still as they did with May. Get him to run himself out then replace him. May, for example, would be no good on the bench because if he came on and could only do 10 minutes it would cost another sub.

But then being a prop they could have a 45 minute blast of Cole, bring Sinckler on and if he only lasted 10 they can always bring Cole back on due to the rules around props. Would allow Cole to play the lions share of the minutes then Sinckler could either close out or just give Cole a bit of a spell.

Tuillagi got pulled off in the semi (double entredres aside) once he started to flag and DROPPED A TACKLE. 

May looking like he should be fully fit, he only had bruising as with Farrell. If hes still hampered then bench or not he just shouldn't be playing, it will slow him from the minute he comes on the length of time he has on the pitch isnt the issue, its that hes just not mobile enough (also Farrell).  Sincklers injury is a sore muscle, something that can easily turn into a tear if he plays for a long period. If hes fully healed fine start him, if not the bench is more sensible. Its nothing that will significantly hamper his ability to play, but the longer he does the greater the risk of it becoming serious. 

In terms of the ford on for 80...if the theory is we should have our best XV on as much time as is possible then just start the best ones and keep them on till they are blowing out their rses rather than relying on premeditated early replacements and 50 minutes of Slade, theres enough of that in the christmas shops. I personally dont have a great issue with JJ or Slade being left unused, it might even save the tax payer a bit in funding knighthoods. Between this lot and the cricketers and executing all the traitors the Queens going to have a very busy new year.

[king_carlos]

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Source ?

Steroids in rugby is a topic these boards have done plenty of times and there are several topics we can dig up devoted just to that if we're going to discuss it. There was one discussion on it a few years back with some fascinating input from a couple of Doctors who posted on the board then.

Discussing it here though will likely do nothing more than derail this thread!

[king_carlos]

Kitshoff - 6'0" and 120kg
Mtawarira - 6'0" and 116kg
Malherbe - 6'3" and 125kg
Koch - 6'1" and 118kg
Lood de Jager - 6'9" and 125kg
Etzebeth - 6'8" and 123kg
Snyman - 6'9" and 120kg
Mostert - 6'6" and 110kg
Pieter-Steph du Toit - 6'6" and 120kg
Vermeulen - 6'4" and 120kg

Not sure where you took your's from, but that backs up the point of the official weights on the World Cup sites. Some of yours are 5-10 kgs heavier than the official weights.

Vermeulen's official weight is 108kg, which is ballsacks

Just Wikipedia for those, Afro.

[king_carlos]

It's sounding like England will be full strength with Farrell and May expected back from dead legs, Sinckler fit and Nowell expected to be available for selection.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Daly

16.Cowan-Dickie 17.Marler 18.Cole 19.Kruis 20.Wilson 21.Spencer 22.Slade 23.Nowell

Given that it's often been unclear what Jones first choice side is throughout his tenure it's amusing that the side for the final is looking like it will pick itself. It really is typical of how dear Eddie seems to get things to fall together when it matters.

[Soul Requiem]

I'd rather have JJ on the bench, doesn't cover as many positions than Slade but if we need something to happen in the final quarter then he's your man.

[Gooseberry]

Pretty mad to think England will go through the tournament having only used a player of Launchberrys standing for 49 minutes in one game against the weakest side in their pool.

[king_carlos]

I'd rather have JJ on the bench, doesn't cover as many positions than Slade but if we need something to happen in the final quarter then he's your man.

Issue there is losing the dual playmakers that England rely on were Ford or Farrell to go off injured.

I'd be happy with either Slade or JJ on the bench though. JJ is the better defender in wide channels which would help shut down Le Roux and Kolbe. Slade is excellent at marshalling the defenders inside him which would help cut down de Allendes threat.

Slade does offer an enormous left boot when kicking to touch from penalty's though. Daly offers that left foot angle as well but not the accuracy of Slade.

They are good conundrums for England to have though.

[LondonTiger]

Pretty mad to think England will go through the tournament having only used a player of Launchberrys standing for 49 minutes in one game against the weakest side in their pool.

And Joe is not happy according to Dai Young https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/england-rugby-news-wasps-rugby-17165617

[Guest]

Ah right, drugs...

[Afro]

Ah right, drugs...

More the implication

[king_carlos]

Pretty mad to think England will go through the tournament having only used a player of Launchberrys standing for 49 minutes in one game against the weakest side in their pool.

And Joe is not happy according to Dai Young https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/england-rugby-news-wasps-rugby-17165617

48 of his 62 tests caps have been starts so he's not a player accustomed to sitting out games.

He's a terrific player but the depth England have at lock is excellent. Undoubtedly his line-out work being a notch below Lawes, Itoje and Kruis being the main factor.

At 28-years old he has time to fight his way back in though.

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