RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[BigTrevsbigmac]

As good as the last performance was & I do not mean in anyway to denigrate it, because I believe it was the best England performance ever.
I do think the bounce of the ball  favoured  us at times particularly the regather after a kick ahead.
I know you make your own luck at times but this next game it maybe the ball bounces the other way & we find we don’t regain possession.

[Scottrf]

We set up in a way to counteract the New Zealand restarts. Look at 69.30. Short NZ restart, multiple England players go past Read when he knocks it back and Curry gathers. Smart anticipation and planning.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

If we win it, do the whole squad get a medal?

I feel sorry for players like Launchbury, Singleton and Genge who have hardly had any time on the pitch, a winners medal would go someway to easing the frustration after all the time and effort they have put in supporting the others.

Spencer must think Christmas has come early, not played a minute and guaranteed some sort of medal. might not even set foot on the pitch during a game.

[LondonTiger]

Yes, all get a medal.

[lostinwales]

Genge's time will come. Singleton was always a spare part but he should have chances too. Launchbury I do feel sorry for, because he's such a talent, but he is 4th choice.

[Gooseberry]

It shows a lot of faith to keep England unchanged, save for the injury to Heinz. It was a performance worthy of winning any World Cup knockout game last week but it wasnt the perfect performance by any stretch, so still room for England to move in a forward direction. I felt 10-0 was light at half time so hopefully if we can play a similar half of rugby we can get our attacking game firing a little more accurately and hopefully make the second half more comfortable.

You're right. 10-0 was at least one score light.

Delighted to see Sinckler is fit. Would've been awful to have been ruled out, so close to the final.

It was but its not like they have any players who would obviously improve things. Overall I felt they were better in that game than against Aus where they shipped far too much possession and relied on the opposition mistakes to gift them chances. Whilst far more ruthless with the ball they had and winning by a huge score at the end there was long periods they didnt look in control. Against New Zealand even when they gifted a try through an error at the line out it never really felt like they were in trouble. For the majority of the game they well dominant and playing in the right half of the pitch, despite having two backs with impaired mobility. 
England should have won by more in that game and less in the Aus one, but I see that as a sign they had it right in the semi just some bad luck/moments of poor execution. I dont agree with that they had the bounce of the ball at all, certainly not the bounce of the TMO. You make your own luck is a thing, England put the ball in places tpo pressure New Zealand and followed up on it. Aside from the one slip their line out was impeccable despite New Zealand targeting it. 
The only non injury change that might have been on the cards was flipping back to Farrell at 10, but for me Englands territorial kicking was better with Ford in, and they had no issues with defence. I guess Nowell could have a case for the bench, but thats almost tinkering for the sake of it.

Continuity has served England well. They have the right players that have put them playing their best rugby since 2003 if not ever. More of the same is all they need, no desperate searching for something extra. they are better than SA if they continue as they have done. 

Its maybe rough on the squad players but worse for those who didnt come at all after being key parts of building the side like Hartley, its easy to forget its his captaincy that was credited with getting England off to such a positive start under Jones. He does only have himself to blame though I guess, stopped being good enough. Brown it seems his lack of discipline cost him a last chance, he started and ended his England career in the same way. Quite the opposite for Tuillagi who really looked to have no hope of another shot at a world cup after missing most of a 3 year period of his career to injury and suspension. Came close to signing for a French club several times but in the end his loyalty to Tigers and their faith in him has paid off for everyone, hes a more rounded player now than he was in 2011 and still young enough to make another world cup. 

South Africa are going to win arent they.

[TightHEAD]

ENGLAND STARTING XV
15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 38 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 41 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 78 caps) C
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 64 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 94 caps)
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 44 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 30 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 33 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 80 caps)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 18 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 50 caps)

Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 20 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 67 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 94 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 40 caps)
20 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks/ Newcastle Falcons 17 caps)
21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 3 caps)
22 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps)
23 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 46 caps

[Rugby Fan]

...I feel sorry for players like Launchbury, Singleton and Genge who have hardly had any time on the pitch, a winners medal would go someway to easing the frustration after all the time and effort they have put in supporting the others....

Players feel very different. Some are proud to have been part of the squad, others will feel they haven't earned it if they didn't play.

[Afro]

Glad to see Wilson keeping is place, he did really well when he came on getting a turn over.
It is also nice that EJ as kept faith with Ford and Farrell. partnership.

I feel it will be a different type of game than ENG V NZ, more aggressive type of game.
SA will want to get their big forwards running and smashing England backwards. 

But despite all that i do believe England can and will cope very well.

Handy if we need a bit of girth towards the end

[Duty281]

Great to hear England are unchanged. Great team. Great everything.

England by 15.

[Collapse2005]

Yes, all get a medal.

Its as if you have won already. Just kidding I do think England will win however SA seem to be crafty enough to win ugly which makes for an interesting game.

Its quite a turnaround for both teams who were both really average in 2018. Kudos to them.

[Scottrf]

Yeah debating medals does seem to be tempting fate.

[Rugby Fan]

Yes, all get a medal.

Its as if you have won already.

The losers gets medals as well.

[Afro]

They all get runners-up medals too if we lose....

[Afro]

Would Heinz get a medal (whichever colour) given he has left the squad? And if yes, Spencer too?

[LondonTiger]

Would Heinz get a medal (whichever colour) given he has left the squad? And if yes, Spencer too?

Yes and yes.

[Afro]

That's going to make World Rugby cross having to splash out on additional medals!!

[RiscaGame]

It shows a lot of faith to keep England unchanged, save for the injury to Heinz. It was a performance worthy of winning any World Cup knockout game last week but it wasnt the perfect performance by any stretch, so still room for England to move in a forward direction. I felt 10-0 was light at half time so hopefully if we can play a similar half of rugby we can get our attacking game firing a little more accurately and hopefully make the second half more comfortable.

You're right. 10-0 was at least one score light.

Delighted to see Sinckler is fit. Would've been awful to have been ruled out, so close to the final.

It was but its not like they have any players who would obviously improve things. Overall I felt they were better in that game than against Aus where they shipped far too much possession and relied on the opposition mistakes to gift them chances. Whilst far more ruthless with the ball they had and winning by a huge score at the end there was long periods they didnt look in control. Against New Zealand even when they gifted a try through an error at the line out it never really felt like they were in trouble. For the majority of the game they well dominant and playing in the right half of the pitch, despite having two backs with impaired mobility. 
England should have won by more in that game and less in the Aus one, but I see that as a sign they had it right in the semi just some bad luck/moments of poor execution. I dont agree with that they had the bounce of the ball at all, certainly not the bounce of the TMO. You make your own luck is a thing, England put the ball in places tpo pressure New Zealand and followed up on it. Aside from the one slip their line out was impeccable despite New Zealand targeting it. 
The only non injury change that might have been on the cards was flipping back to Farrell at 10, but for me Englands territorial kicking was better with Ford in, and they had no issues with defence. I guess Nowell could have a case for the bench, but thats almost tinkering for the sake of it.

Continuity has served England well. They have the right players that have put them playing their best rugby since 2003 if not ever. More of the same is all they need, no desperate searching for something extra. they are better than SA if they continue as they have done. 

Its maybe rough on the squad players but worse for those who didnt come at all after being key parts of building the side like Hartley, its easy to forget its his captaincy that was credited with getting England off to such a positive start under Jones. He does only have himself to blame though I guess, stopped being good enough. Brown it seems his lack of discipline cost him a last chance, he started and ended his England career in the same way. Quite the opposite for Tuillagi who really looked to have no hope of another shot at a world cup after missing most of a 3 year period of his career to injury and suspension. Came close to signing for a French club several times but in the end his loyalty to Tigers and their faith in him has paid off for everyone, hes a more rounded player now than he was in 2011 and still young enough to make another world cup. 

South Africa are going to win arent they.

Sorry. I wasn't suggesting that England were threatened by the score only being 10-0, I just meant that they left a couple of scores out there. That's probably being pretty harsh though.

I really can't see England losing (and I hope I am not tempting fate for you guys). If I was to bet, I would probably back by 11-15. England are more than equipped to deal with a power side and the form they are in, they will take some stopping. The depth in the squad is incredible and was the reason why I bet on England to win the tournament, after the 2nd warm up in Cardiff.

[Poorfour]

Yes, all get a medal.

Its as if you have won already. Just kidding I do think England will win however SA seem to be crafty enough to win ugly which makes for an interesting game.

Its quite a turnaround for both teams who were both really average in 2018. Kudos to them.

Interestingly, there was an article (I think in the Guardian) about Eddie before the tournament that included a quote from 2016 in which he predicted there would be a blip in 2018.

But looking back on 2018, there was still a sense that England were building. There was a combination of factors that led to the losses (a makeshift back row, Toonie working out how to isolate runners, an outright error from Nige in the Scotland match when England might have changed the momentum in their favour, the daft idea of preparing for tests at altitude at sea level), but at the same time there were aspects of the way England played that have a direct through line to where they are today - in particular the fast starts against South Africa in the first two tests.

It feels now as if the final piece to fall into place was having all the right personnel available at once. Everyone feels a bit sad for Launchbury - but how often have Itoje, Kruis and Lawes all been fit at the same time? I don't think Underhill and Curry had played together for more than half a game before the warmups, and we hadn't seen the best of Manu, Billy or Mako for a long time. Whatever the physios were doing, getting all of those players in the right shape at the right time has been a huge factor in England delivering the gameplan that Eddie wants.

I don't know the Springboks side of the picture in anything like the same detail, but there seems to be a similar story there - bringing through the likes of Kolisi and Kolbe seems to have made a big difference in how the team has come together.

Looking to the future for England, most of the squad have another RWC in them. At a guess, Marler, Cole, Lawes, Youngs and Wilson won't make the next RWC but most of the others could (as could Marler, if he felt like it), and in several positions there's some real talent emerging - albeit also some gaps in a few spots.

[Afro]

I am excited what this team can achieve in the future. As an England fan it is exciting to watch them play (not sure whether that transfers to neutrals?), we are seeing some great performances and a large proportion of the side are still young and have another World Cup in them.

And neither Mako or Billy are playing as well as we know they can, so there is potentially more to come immediately. Win or lose on Saturday, I am looking forward to the next couple of years from this team

[Soul Requiem]

Cole and Youngs are the two you'd expect to see replaced sooner rather than later, getting to 100 caps might be it for the pair of them, Marler won't play for a few years now and certainly won't be touring anywhere. Lawes I reckon will still be around in four years as a squad option unless some young gun starts tearing up trees, Wilson I think will be used as a transitional bench player for the next year or so.

[Rinsure]

If we win it, do the whole squad get a medal?

I feel sorry for players like Launchbury, Singleton and Genge who have hardly had any time on the pitch, a winners medal would go someway to easing the frustration after all the time and effort they have put in supporting the others.

Spencer must think Christmas has come early, not played a minute and guaranteed some sort of medal. might not even set foot on the pitch during a game.

Dai Young has said he's been texting with Launch, and Launch is frustrated, wants to get back to Wasps and contribute there. I'm sure he's still contributing and supporting the squad, but he's looking forward to getting some game time!

[No 7&1/2]

It's the only murmur of discontent. And that's come from a welshman.

[SecretFly]

That's going to make World Rugby cross having to splash out on additional medals!!

Well put it this way, if the price of additional medals doesn't go above 2 grand, WR will be happy enough to fork out England's fine to pay for them.

[Gooseberry]

That's going to make World Rugby cross having to splash out on additional medals!!

Well put it this way, if the price of additional medals doesn't go above 2 grand, WR will be happy enough to fork out England's fine to pay for them.

That already got given to a needy charity apparently (rumour has it a benevolence fund for Scotland)

[Poorfour]

Cole and Youngs are the two you'd expect to see replaced sooner rather than later, getting to 100 caps might be it for the pair of them, Marler won't play for a few years now and certainly won't be touring anywhere. Lawes I reckon will still be around in four years as a squad option unless some young gun starts tearing up trees, Wilson I think will be used as a transitional bench player for the next year or so.

Lawes is 30 - I can't see his body being able to sustain the way he plays for another 4 years, and if we haven't found someone who can do a similar job by then we will be in trouble.

As for Marler, who can say? He skipped a tour, then he retired, then he un-retired. If he enjoyed the experience in Japan he might carry on, or he might not. That said, he's only 18 months younger than Lawes, so maybe not. It may depend on whether Eddie carries on until 2023. But I think there is a decent chance that in 4 years time he will still be England's best scrummaging loosehead; the question is whether he's reconciled in his own head to being away from his family for long periods.

Wilson might make the bench in the short term - but with so much back row talent to come through it's a question of when they are deemed ready rather than anything else.

One thing this RWC has taught us is that Eddie has some quite specific views on what he wants in his players, and a very good sense of who is capable of delivering it and when to bring them in. I thought he was taking a big risk bringing so many relatively untried players into the squad, but bar McConnochie (who hasn't really had a chance) all of them have had a genuinely positive impact.

And if Curry and Underhill are wearing winners' medals on Saturday evening, that has the mark of genius about it. I think those who'd seen them expected one or both of the Currys to excel at international level - but not so soon, and almost no-one outside of Wales had heard of Underhill before Eddie namechecked him. And yet they've come off best against two of the best backrow pairings in the world. (I wonder how much of a hand Richard Hill had in that?)

[SecretFly]

That's going to make World Rugby cross having to splash out on additional medals!!

Well put it this way, if the price of additional medals doesn't go above 2 grand, WR will be happy enough to fork out England's fine to pay for them.

That already got given to a needy charity apparently (rumour has it a benevolence fund for Scotland)

So England's fine pays off Scotland's fine? WR are good at money laundering.....

[Soul Requiem]

Lawes has a habit of continuously proving everyone wrong, before the last world cup he was seen as nothing more than a half back bully who was going to be jettisoned once Itoje came into the side, his transformation in the past four years has been incredible. He has an almost lazy personality where he's so laid back which belies the graft he puts in and unlike a fair few locks it's down at breakneck speed.

[robbo277]

It is frustrating for any rugby player to not play. Whatever level you're at. There's no midweek tour games, no releasing unused players to their clubs, it's pretty much a unique beast in that regard.

Genge, Singleton, Ludlam, Francis, Cokanasiga and McConnochie might think themselves lucky to have got on the plane and just be happy to he there, but someone like Launchbury has been a key player for England for years is more likely to feel upset about being marginalised. Perhaps that's why there is no Hartley, Robshaw, Care or Brown. If they're not in the 23 they're not in the 31 because how would they take not being involved?

I did ponder whether we'd pick Launchbury and try and match South Africa's 6 forward bench. It's an option with Slade on there, but probably more reactionary than is necessary right now. Would send out a bad message I think, that we're worried about their forwards. Which we shouldn't be. Respectful, but not worried.

[Rugby Fan]

There must be a lot of useless trivia surrounding the final. I've seen the following:

Apparently, South Africa have never scored a try in a World Cup Final. They have also never lost a final (2 appearances). If South Africa win, they'll be the first team to do so while dropping a match along the way.

If England win, I think they'll be the first side to beat Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in consecutive weeks since England managed it at Twickenham during the 2002 Autumn international season.

If England win, then vision coach Sherylle Calder may be be the first player or coach to be involved with three World Cup winners. She worked with England in 2003 and South Africa in 2007.

[SecretFly]

Just shows the money England gotta spend. They have a designated coach for virtually all human senses, thoughts and dreams. And an Elite Specs Savers coach too???

[Afro]

There must be a lot of useless trivia surrounding the fina. I've seen the following:

Apparently, South Africa have never scored a try in a World Cup Final. They have also never lost a final (2 appearances). If South Africa win, they'll be the first team to do so while dropping a match along the way.

If England win, I think they'll be the first side to beat Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in consecutive weeks since England managed it at Twickenham during the 2002 Autumn international season.

If England win, then vision coach Sherylle Calder may be be the first player or coach to be involved with three World Cup winners. She worked with England in 2003 and South Africa in 2007.

Don't forget that if they win England will be the first team to be gifted the World Cup due to not having to play all their scheduled games

[Rugby Fan]

Don't forget that if they win England will be the first team to be gifted the World Cup due to not having to play all their scheduled games

I believe World Rugby have already ordered new medals made out of Kit Kat foil to represent the compromised nature of any England victory.

[Afro]

Presumably from the 2 finger Kit Kate's, not the 4?

[SecretFly]

Presumably from the 2 finger Kit Kate's, not the 4?

In an English 'V'

[Gooseberry]

If England win, I think they'll be the first side to beat Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in consecutive weeks since England managed it at Twickenham during the 2002 Autumn international season.

Aside from England in the 2002 and 2011 AI's has anyone ever played Sanzar on consecutive weekends? Its surely the first time in a world cup?

[Gooseberry]

Don't forget that if they win England will be the first team to be gifted the World Cup due to not having to play all their scheduled games

I believe World Rugby have already ordered new medals made out of Kit Kat foil to represent the compromised nature of any England victory.

Secretfly will be turning them into hats whilst Maiow argues with his own reflection that they are bigger than the real gold ones despite the official weight being lower.

[lostinwales]

In a few years time we'll be arguing over where the next Itoje is going to come from, and there won't be one.

[SecretFly]

Don't forget that if they win England will be the first team to be gifted the World Cup due to not having to play all their scheduled games

I believe World Rugby have already ordered new medals made out of Kit Kat foil to represent the compromised nature of any England victory.

Secretfly will be turning them into hats whilst Maiow argues with his own reflection that they are bigger than the real gold ones despite the official weight being lower.

You never got enough of it when Alfa Commidian Rays are coming in from Planet KeK, and everyone's going to Die when they use their brain transfix odolisers on full power!!!!!!

You can't eat KitKats quick enough when that schidt's goin' down!

[Collapse2005]

Yes, all get a medal.

Its as if you have won already. Just kidding I do think England will win however SA seem to be crafty enough to win ugly which makes for an interesting game.

Its quite a turnaround for both teams who were both really average in 2018. Kudos to them.

Interestingly, there was an article (I think in the Guardian) about Eddie before the tournament that included a quote from 2016 in which he predicted there would be a blip in 2018.

But looking back on 2018, there was still a sense that England were building. There was a combination of factors that led to the losses (a makeshift back row, Toonie working out how to isolate runners, an outright error from Nige in the Scotland match when England might have changed the momentum in their favour, the daft idea of preparing for tests at altitude at sea level), but at the same time there were aspects of the way England played that have a direct through line to where they are today - in particular the fast starts against South Africa in the first two tests.

It feels now as if the final piece to fall into place was having all the right personnel available at once. Everyone feels a bit sad for Launchbury - but how often have Itoje, Kruis and Lawes all been fit at the same time? I don't think Underhill and Curry had played together for more than half a game before the warmups, and we hadn't seen the best of Manu, Billy or Mako for a long time. Whatever the physios were doing, getting all of those players in the right shape at the right time has been a huge factor in England delivering the gameplan that Eddie wants.

I don't know the Springboks side of the picture in anything like the same detail, but there seems to be a similar story there - bringing through the likes of Kolisi and Kolbe seems to have made a big difference in how the team has come together.

Looking to the future for England, most of the squad have another RWC in them. At a guess, Marler, Cole, Lawes, Youngs and Wilson won't make the next RWC but most of the others could (as could Marler, if he felt like it), and in several positions there's some real talent emerging - albeit also some gaps in a few spots.

I think Kolisi was brought into the squad by Heyneke Meyer but yeah under Erasmus he obviously plays a key role.

[lostinwales]

SA squad out. Same as vs Wales apart from Kolbe coming back after injury

Same replacements too

[mikey_dragon]

Which team is the biggest?

[Gooseberry]

They both have the same number of players Mikey ...which is a miracle for Wales given how many have pulled a sicky

[Poorfour]

Tasty match ups across the pitch.

Twelve monster front rows going at each other
One of the most powerful lock trios against one of the most athletic
Two big units and a rapid poacher against two rapid poachers and a big unit
The young pretender against the old master called Youngs
A very direct 10-12 pairing against one with less grunt but more options.

[mikey_dragon]

They both have the same number of players Mikey ...which is a miracle for Wales given how many have pulled a sicky

I was talking about girth...

[Rugby Fan]

...Genge, Singleton, Ludlam, Francis, Cokanasiga and McConnochie...

It's possible McConnochie won't play for England again. I think Jones went for him for his attitude, and because he could cope with being away on tour for a long time, as much as his playing ability. Those attributes are less important in an ordinary England season, and wing is a competitive position. He might kick on again but it could easily go the other way

[Scottrf]

Which team is the biggest?

South African pack is 1538cm, England 1500cm.

[bluestonevedder]

They both have the same number of players Mikey ...which is a miracle for Wales given how many have pulled a sicky

I was talking about girth...

Probably Malherbe then.

One of the funniest-shaped rugby professionals. He makes George look rather svelte.

[mikey_dragon]

Did anyone see the nominees for coach of the year? It’s quite a lineup, but I think it is now a two-horse race between Jones and Erasmus.

Team of the year, I’m swaying towards Japan.

[Collapse2005]

Did anyone see the nominees for coach of the year? It’s quite a lineup, but I think it is now a two-horse race between Jones and Erasmus.

Team of the year, I’m swaying towards Japan.

Not sure Hansen deserves to be shortlisted. 3rd in the rugby championship, 3rd or 4th in the RWC. I would have thought that would be considered a below average year for NZ.

All the rest definitely deserve the nod.

[Sponsored content]