The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[RDW]

First topic message reminder :

A thread set up to house the more serious chat relating to the global pandemic.

Nothing has changed in what we expect from discussions on here though:

- Please treat each other with respect
- Avoid hyperbole and fake news
- This thread shouldn't be used for a political soapbox, but political discussion will likely happen. See point 1!

A reminder that we have a community thread here for people to vent, look for help and all round support each other. https://www.606v2.com/t69506-the-covid-19-community-thread#3896653

[dynamark]

Kwini isn't Bernie about 80 years of age you have to admire these guys indestructible.
Surely the electorate which I think a small proportion of total have to go for relative younger leadership.But does it really affect your daily life.BTW my father was offered a job out in LA when I was just 14 and decided against it so my early life could easily have been in US

[123456789.]

There's something slightly sick about the game the Americans have devised whereby two geriatrics travel the country meeting as many people as possible in the middle of a pandemic that predominantly effects the old.

I thought Bernie and Corbyn were one and the same but I stand corrected. I certainly think their fanbase cross over a fair bit.

[RDW]

It wasn't getting nasty at all. I simply suggested that if you can afford it, sort out your own chripodist ( like most people do) or sort your own physio out.

I wasn't actually suggesting you were getting nasty. The issue with internet forums is that intonation is missed and through no fault of your own, nor anybody else's, wires were in danger of being crossed.

You're a very blunt and to the point poster super realist, which is fine to a point, but you've got to remember the world isn't always black and white. Yes if you can afford it then technically you should be able to get a private appointment sooner, but throw in things like depression, anxiety and other medical issues into the mix and people might not find it so easy to sort these kind of things themselves. As LT said there's often a downward spiral with these kind of conditions and usually one of the first things to go is people stop looking after themselves. If they have to wait 12-18 months to see someone they could be in a really bad way by that point.

This is a message aimed at everyone - I'm certainly not a snowflake but numbers is right in that people need to be aware of what they are saying on social media and internet forums as there may be people who take it a negatively way. You obviously can't sensor everything you say and try and second guess reactions, but just have it in mind.

[tigertattie]

I guess it’s more of a case of don’t take things for granted. I’m sure there’s plenty people in the UK who just think the NHS is a free service there for whenever they need it. Meanwhile there’s millions of Americans who can’t afford the healthcare required to keep them alive as hospitals focus on profits over patients

[kwinigolfer]

Kwini isn't Bernie about 80 years of age you have to admire these guys indestructible.
Surely the electorate which I think a small proportion of total have to go for relative younger  leadership.But does it really affect your daily life.BTW my father was offered a job out in LA when I was just 14 and decided against it so my early life could easily have been in US

Wouldn't be at all surprised, dyna, if Bernie had a serious relapse after all the energy/adrenaline of the past few years has ebbed away. That heart attack was likely a more serious incident than we've been led to believe.


As for 123456789, which geriatrics exactly are travelling "the country meeting as many people as possible in the middle of a pandemic" are you talking about? Bernie and Biden, for the most part, are staying at home. Though I do see that Drumpf and his gormless sidekick Giuliani are ignoring the Government's instructions.

[Guest]

It wasn't getting nasty at all. I simply suggested that if you can afford it, sort out your own chripodist ( like most people do) or sort your own physio out.

I wasn't actually suggesting you were getting nasty. The issue with internet forums is that intonation is missed and through no fault of your own, nor anybody else's, wires were in danger of being crossed.

You're a very blunt and to the point poster super realist, which is fine to a point, but you've got to remember the world isn't always black and white. Yes if you can afford it then technically you should be able to get a private appointment sooner, but throw in things like depression, anxiety and other medical issues into the mix and people might not find it so easy to sort these kind of things themselves. As LT said there's often a downward spiral with these kind of conditions and usually one of the first things to go is people stop looking after themselves. If they have to wait 12-18 months to see someone they could be in a really bad way by that point.

This is a message aimed at everyone - I'm certainly not a snowflake but numbers is right in that people need to be aware of what they are saying on social media and internet forums as there may be people who take it a negatively way. You obviously can't sensor everything you say and try and second guess reactions, but just have it in mind.

It's an interesting point he makes though, and very much points to the issue we have with the NHS in the UK. The whole ethos of the NHS was meant to be that it was free at the point of delivery regardless of wealth, social status, etc. A fantastic idea. However, the NHS has not been able to cope with the increase in chronic diaereses which are now the biggest public health burden the world over. (And chronic diseases are largely lifestyle related and modifiable, but that is another argument). But what we have now is an NHS that can't cope so the waiting times for treatment is often extremely long. This has led to private providers coming in to offer to take on some of the burden at a cost. Those that can afford to pay can now jump the queue and get treatment much quicker than those without the means, which means that the NHS has lost some of that ethos about a healthcare system free to all regardless of wealth or social status - the poorer simply have to wait and, in doing so, risk premature death compared to the more wealthy. Which is obviously a sad state of affairs. As an example, my parents are by no means wealthy. They're quite comfortable in retirement as they both have those ridiculous pensions (police and nurse) that were available in the past (basically final salary, work for only 30 years but be retired for perhaps 50, plus a whopping lump sum on retirement too! Yes, I'm jealous!). My dad had some health issues recently, went to the GP and hospital, was told he needed a procedure which would be 18 months but...... get this......... the NHS gave him the option of waiting on the NHS or going for private treatment at Cardiff Bay private hospital just down the road. So the NHS is offering the choice and, kind of, referring to private for those that can afford it. So my dad went private and was in and treated within 10 days or so. And if he didn't, or couldn't afford to, well....... he might be dead. And unfortunately that is the system we have in the UK currently.

[No 7&1/2]

Sounds dodgy as it isnt a first come first seen if its life limiting or risking. Should be triaged on importance. There are some awful waits but that's what the public have voted for.

[super_realist]

Sounds dodgy as it isnt a first come first seen if its life limiting or risking. Should be triaged on importance. There are some awful waits but that's what the public have voted for.

Yeah, attach a political slant to it why don't you. People never waited under Labour did they?

[No 7&1/2]

The first point isnt political it's a point that triage is a core process and thus should happen. The second point stands.

[super_realist]

The first point isnt political it's a point that triage is a core process and thus should happen. The second point stands.

No one voted for hospital waiting.

[No 7&1/2]

I'm afraid they did. Or they didn't know what they were voting for but I've been assured that's not the case. It's a side note but with less money to education and health you get poorer returns. I'm fine with peoples choices on less tax but that means poorer public services. Hopefully the situation we are in changes a few peoples minds.

[No 7&1/2]

As personally I would like higher taxes and better public services.

[super_realist]

I'm afraid they did. Or they didn't know what they were voting for but I've been assured that's not the case. It's a side note but with less money to education and health you get poorer returns. I'm fine with peoples choices on less tax but that means poorer public services. Hopefully the situation we are in changes a few peoples minds.

Nope, they didn't. It may be an indirect result of it, but no one actually voted for longer queues, don't be ridiculous.

[super_realist]

As personally I would like higher taxes and better public services.

Well, you'll get your wish that you'll be paying higher taxes very soon, not sure it will result in better public services though

[No 7&1/2]

Fine they voted for less tax which leads directly to poorer outcomes. The result is the same. They voted and they get what they get.

[No 7&1/2]

Very possible with the current government super.

[super_realist]

Very possible with the current government super.

More like necessity. If you think 10 years of belt tightening was bad, you haven't seen anything yet, and it wouldn't matter who is in charge.

[super_realist]

Fine they voted for less tax which leads directly to poorer outcomes. The result is the same. They voted and they get what they get.

Less tax wasn't in the policies, so they didn't vote for that either.

[No 7&1/2]

Belt tightening for the last 10 years was a political choice. I think this may lead to a change in public opinion. We can but hope

[No 7&1/2]

Really? The conservatives were proposing the same tax as all other parties? Missed that. Hey ho I'll leave you to your love of the right though as this is just straying.

[super_realist]

Really? The conservatives were proposing the same tax as all other parties? Missed that. Hey ho I'll leave you to your love of the right though as this is just straying.

They didn't mention any tax rises or reductions.
I'm not a right winger, just pulling you up on a lack of consistency and very poor arguments.

[No 7&1/2]

Sure, sure

[super_realist]

Sure, sure

You probably pay more than enough tax already, I know I do. Wouldnt you just prefer it was put to better use?

[No 7&1/2]

I pay way less tax than I used to. Crazy how little we are taxed. Should be more. But brings it back round to lets do that and fund our health service, education, social care etc etc much better.

[super_realist]

I pay way less tax than I used to. Crazy how little we are taxed. Should be more. But brings it back round to lets do that and fund our health service, education, social care etc etc much better.

Crazy how little we are taxed? Are you joking? Why on earth do you think that?

[Soul Requiem]

I pay way less tax than I used to. Crazy how little we are taxed. Should be more. But brings it back round to lets do that and fund our health service, education, social care etc etc much better.

Crazy how little we are taxed? Are you joking? Why on earth do you think that?

It's part of its online persona. If you want to be taxed more you can always just donate your wages but we can assume it does not do that.

[No 7&1/2]

Because I can very comfortably afford it. It depends on your tax bracket and individual circumstances of course but I think at present the vast majority of people pay too little.

[Soul Requiem]

Because I can very comfortably afford it. It depends on your tax bracket and individual circumstances of course but I think at present the vast majority of people pay too little.

The vast majority obviously disagree. You can comfortably afford it so that means other people can too?

[super_realist]

Because I can very comfortably afford it. It depends on your tax bracket and individual circumstances of course but I think at present the vast majority of people pay too little.

Using what basis, and how much would you want to pay?
I pay 41% for the "privilege" of living in Scotland, plus Nat Ins on top. How much more would you hike it?

[No 7&1/2]

I agree with your 1st point soul and again brings us back to that the current waiting times is the outcome of that view. Some people cant afford the rent let alone taxes that's true.
You earn a very nice wage then super.

[super_realist]

I agree with your 1st point soul and again brings us back to that the current waiting times is the outcome of that view. Some people cant afford the rent let alone taxes that's true.
You earn a very nice wage then super.

I would say its about right for my skills and experience, why would I want to pay more.

Are you one of these do gooders who gives away the excess he thinks he doesn't need? Thought not.

[No 7&1/2]

Fair enough. Some people dont want to pay more tax or tax at all in some cases. No one is saying anything else. Less tax means poorer public services and longer waiting times and/or poorer outcomes.

[super_realist]

Fair enough. Some people dont want to pay more tax or tax at all in some cases. No one is saying anything else. Less tax means poorer public services and longer waiting times and/or poorer outcomes.

There isn't less tax though, that's the point.

[No 7&1/2]

It's less than other parties would tax and invest that's the point.

[super_realist]

It's less than other parties would tax and invest that's the point.

Invest is a strange choice of word. There's no evidence that the laughable plans of Corbyn and Mad McDonnel would have been an investment or would have worked.

[Soul Requiem]

Fair enough. Some people dont want to pay more tax or tax at all in some cases. No one is saying anything else. Less tax means poorer public services and longer waiting times and/or poorer outcomes.

It doesn't mean that at all, it can possibly contribute but management of money is the bigger problem. You don't solve as a problem just by throwing money at it, it's how you spend the money.

[lostinwales]

Sounds dodgy as it isnt a first come first seen if its life limiting or risking. Should be triaged on importance. There are some awful waits but that's what the public have voted for.

Yeah, attach a political slant to it why don't you. People never waited under Labour did they?

They did but hospital waiting times were greatly reduced because Demon Blair's government invested in the NHS. Things have got a lot worse since.

Unfortunately health care is expensive, and one way or the other we all pay. Here in the UK it is easily arguable that the government under invests in the NHS.

[super_realist]

I notice you avoided how much tax you think we should be paying and where you would add that tax

[No 7&1/2]

I'm not an economist super so if I were to magically lead a political party in power I'd have to sit down and work out the maths. All I'm saying is I pay mo where near where I should. Dont even notice its impact. The quite small increase on the top 5 per cent proposed by labour was decried as horrendous so I agree fully people arent prepared to pay or even see others affected! It's a throw away point though that you're distracted by.

[super_realist]

So what do you think you should pay? If you've got so much money, how much more in % do you think you should pay.

More than half of what I earn goes in tax of some sort. To put it another way I work until after Weds lunchtime just for the benefit of the exchequer.
How little do you think you deserve to take home?  40%, or maybe you think just taking home 30% as a gross earning would be fair?

Do you give away the money you don't need?

[No 7&1/2]

Per cent dont know. I'd have to sit down with a calculator. At least 150 quid a month wouldn't be noticeable for people earning what I do. As per the point above by soul not everyone's circumstances are the same. People earning more it obviously affects even less on the whole. It would then help waiting times as above. They're going to be horrendous after this and cancer outcomes and the like are going to be terrible, very few referrals for 2 week waits being made at the moment. Understandable but another impact of this virus.

[super_realist]

Can we assume you give away that 150 quid a month?

[No 7&1/2]

Why would you assume that?

[super_realist]

Why would you assume that?

Well you said its money that you wouldn't miss and you don't need.
I'm presuming you are very young and have very few actual expenses.
If you're happy to pay more tax and think you should be why aren't you giving the money away to places you think would be the benefit of the taxes you think you should be paying?

[No 7&1/2]

37 this month. Anyway just my view that I'd prefer higher taxes and better services. You dont have agree with me. Let this get back to covid.

[super_realist]

37 this month. Anyway just my view that I'd prefer higher taxes and better services. You dont have agree with me. Let this get back to covid.

Fine, but doesn't seem you care so much about services that you aren't donating the money you claim you wouldn't miss. Seems a bit hypocritical.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah. The extra 150 quid isnt going to fund 3 extra psychologists needed in Doncaster to cover current under staffing etc etc hence my thoughts that if taxes nationally were higher we would be able to afford these sort of things. Just to confirm that I agree a lot of people dont want to pay more tax but i hope this situation with covid changes a few perspectives.

[super_realist]

It might do, but the easiest way to improve the NHS is for Britain to take better collective care of itself. It is currently crippled by issues relating to obesity, a completely preventable condition.
Sadly most Brits are too fat, lazy and feckless to do anything about that.

[lostinwales]

It might do, but the easiest way to improve the NHS is for Britain to take better collective care of itself. It is currently crippled by issues relating to obesity, a completely preventable condition.
Sadly most Brits are too fat, lazy and feckless to do anything about that.

You could say that and put everything on the idiots who drink and smoke too much and just eat crap. But then we all pay for that too. If they are not educated well enough to look after themselves, don't have opportunities because of less investment then they won'd do as well. The blame doesn't just lie with them.

[Guest]

I saw an interesting programme (I think it was presented by Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall, randomly) about life in Denmark. They pay on average around 50% tax. But, instead of outrage which I was expecting, the programme found people were quite happy to pay because of what it bought. They felt it was money well spent and that life, society, public facilities, amenities, etc. were all to a high standard and well run. Interestingly their social welfare system was not so stigmatized as here and people were only on it for an average of 3 months (if memory serves). People used it as a leg back up on to the employment market - i.e. lose your job, access free housing (very nice looking too!) and money for a while while supported back to work through many schemes, initiatives and training, and off you go.

Not saying we should move to that but I found it quite interesting and poles apart from the perception of tax and the role of the state in this country.

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