Future English Backrow?

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No rugby at the moment but worth speculating about the future England backrow which is under transition and which has several promising young players.  This comes after years when it seem rather moribund.

Under Jones there seems more flexibility in where players can play, so more a question of picking any three that balance.

Open-sides seem rather like London buses at the moment - wait a long time and then several come together.

At present: - Curry(s), Underhill, Earl, and Ludlam all seen to have a chance though Jones may not see all of these as open-sides. In my view Curry (Tom) seems our best open-side for years and should play there.


On the Blind-side Hill and Willis show promise and Jones has made use of converted locks - Lawes having recently covered this position.  Isiekwe has being doing something similar for Saracens. Jones has also played Ewels there from time to time.


At number 8, a fit Vunipola would be a tremendous asset.  In his absence, Dombrandt has shown glimses and Zach Mercer promise.  Hughes is a good player if in certain style.  Simmonds perhaps has missed his chance.  Wilson whether at 6 or 8 may have run out of time, certainly for the next world cup but rarely plays badly.


Most of the above could do a good job, and I am sure there are names missed out.

No-one can second guess Jones but choosing a future back row. I have been impressed by Hill, so my future backrow would include Curry and Hill but harder to choose the third.  For power Dombrandt or Vunipola at 8, but Underhill is difficult to leave out.

A backrow of Curry, Underhill and Hill(8) would be all action.  A backrow of Curry, Hill and Dombrandt would have more power, but do either of these combinations need more line-out capability?

Please discuss?

CB

BamBam wrote:Has Hill ever played 8? He was a lock in the age grades and I've only ever seen him at 6. Would appear to have the skillset but the back of the scrum control is massive!

Had Curry?

Hill has litterally everything to be a top class 6 or 8. Why not get him in at 8 now, when we have so many others who can fight for the flank positions.

Mr Bounce wrote:I think also that another reason our scrum took a battering in the RWC final was the SA locks. They had 4 outstanding players, 2 utter beasts starting in De Jager and Etzebeth who are both 6ft 8, 120+kg and super-strong scrummagers and the ridiculously over-sized Snyman plus Mostert who isn't exactly a lightweight.

Dont forget Steph du Toit...on the flank...is about 6'6 and around 18.5 stone aswell...

Hindsight and all that, but you wonder what would have happened if England had started with Marler and Kruis, and if Sinkler hadn't been castled within the first couple of minutes. For 60 minutes (?) practically all of the Boks points came from the scrum (that is how my hazy memory remembers it anyway).

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Has Hill ever played 8? He was a lock in the age grades and I've only ever seen him at 6. Would appear to have the skillset but the back of the scrum control is massive!

Had Curry?

Hill has litterally everything to be a top class 6 or 8. Why not get him in at 8 now, when we have so many others who can fight for the flank positions.

No Curry hadn't, but I just assumed that you were suggesting Hill because he had played at 8, and was questioning when!

Ahhh no, i dont think Hill has.

Im just saying he looks ideal for that spot. And at a young age...get him switched across.
But thats just my useless opinion.

But then i guess the big question these days is...does it matter where they scrum down...its what they do all over tha park.

A little off topic but see Cane has been named NZ captain.

I think this is the first time I can say the NZ captain would get nowhere near an England side/backrow. Cane is a very average flanker, I think we have 3 or 4 better options. It's easy to see how NZ are struggling of late.

Couldnt agree more Sgt.

Completely agree.

It might be a laugh to send Tom Curry or Sam Underhill down there for a Super Rugby season, so that the Kiwis can tell us how they wouldn't even get a starting spot for the Blues.

I all seriousness, it might be good to see Ben Curry would go down there, reckon it would get Eddie's attention.

I'd disagree on Cane. I wouldn't pick him ahead of Underhill or Curry (I rate them both extremely highly) but he'd be ahead of the chasing pack of Ludlam, Earl and Wilson.

'NZ struggling' needs a bit of perspective as well in my opinion. There's still daylight between them at second in the world rankings and England in 3rd. Won the 16'. 17', 18' Rugby Championships They were runners up in '19 but due to it being a World Cup year that's in a half length competition. Looking at sides they lost to between 2016 to present:

Ireland - Once in Chicago and once in Dublin to an Ireland side at it's peak
Lions - A loss when SBW saw red and a draw in the third test
South Africa - A loss in 2018 I believe and draw last year
Australia - A loss in last years Rugby Championship when Scott Barrett saw red
England - RWC semi when England performed superbly

They aren't on par with the 2011-15 All Blacks side that is the best I've seen play the game. Still an outstanding side though. Worth noting that in the RWC group stages NZ cruised past the Boks side that hammered England in the final. The gap has closed compared to the McCaw/Carter era but they are still one of the very best sides in the world.

Retallick being injured in 2019 hit them really hard. He looked short of full fitness at the world cup. Damian McKenzie was a big loss too. I'm very excited to see where the Barrett and McKenzie partnership goes. Particularly with Goodhue and Lienert-Brown outside them. Bridge, Reece and Ioane are brilliant wingers as well.

Rettalick was a huge loss as I agree he wasnt up to speed. The best player in the world when fit. I don't reckon much to their back row though. Maybe someone will.come flying through and be amazing (as usual) but honestly I don't think they are in the top 5 there at the moment.
Still think barrett is a full back rather than fly half. Just lacks a bit of control for me albeit a fantastically talented player.

It's been more of a gradual slide from NZ.

Look at the backrow (keeps it on topic slightly)....3 world class players in Kaino, McCaw and Read have retired over the last 3 years or so and none of their replacements have made that jump to the next level. Similar in the backline with Nonu/Smith, none of the current players look that special.

Only Barrett, McKenzie and Ioane have looked like world class options. I watched the NZ documentary the other day and Hansen says you need 8 world class players in your side to be the best in the world, I think we're closer to this than they are at the minute.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's been more of a gradual slide from NZ.

Look at the backrow (keeps it on topic slightly)....3 world class players in Kaino, McCaw and Read have retired over the last 3 years or so and none of their replacements have made that jump to the next level. Similar in the backline with Nonu/Smith, none of the current players look that special.

Only Barrett, McKenzie and Ioane have looked like world class options. I watched the NZ documentary the other day and Hansen says you need 8 world class players in your side to be the best in the world, I think we're closer to this than they are at the minute.

NZ are struggling because in quick succession they have lost some big time players and leaders. Let's face it at the time of their retirement you could argue that McCaw and Carter were 1 and 2 in the best players in the world. Nonu went with SBW and Read showing their age.

You look at the next generation of players that could have made a big impact for NZ and some are taking the European cash. Bristol have Luatua and Piatau, Clermont have Moala, Savea is at Toulon. The centre combination that played Vs England never left Manu's pocket it physically dominated the pair of them and the hobbling Farrell managed to limp through the game. 

I think Mo'unga could be a great 10 for NZ but they need to back him rather than give him half the job with Barrett. Barrett is a very good 10 but not a good goal kicker and the big problem with that is when he misses it starts to play on his mind and effects his game. The return of McKenzie could help with that as he's a magician from fullback and a good goal kicker.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's been more of a gradual slide from NZ.

Look at the backrow (keeps it on topic slightly)....3 world class players in Kaino, McCaw and Read have retired over the last 3 years or so and none of their replacements have made that jump to the next level. Similar in the backline with Nonu/Smith, none of the current players look that special.

Only Barrett, McKenzie and Ioane have looked like world class options. I watched the NZ documentary the other day and Hansen says you need 8 world class players in your side to be the best in the world, I think we're closer to this than they are at the minute.

Ardie Savea would make the back row in most world XVs at 7 or 8. Definitely world class. He'd walk into the England back row in my opinion.

Retallick is definitely world class. One of the best locks of all time. Aaron Smith and TJ Perenara as well. Barrett and McKenzie. Reece and Bridge have leapfrogged Ioane they are so good as well.

They go under the radar a bit but Codie Taylor, along with their looseheads Joe Moody and Ofa Tu'ungafasi are all fantastic players as well.

'World class' is obviously it's all subjective though. Especially depending on how strong various positions are worldwide.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The centre combination that played Vs England never left Manu's pocket it physically dominated the pair of them and the hobbling Farrell managed to limp through the game.

I'd argue England battering the NZ pack up front decided more in the centres than anything. I do think it's worth noting that in 'the best performance from England in the Pro era' as many dubbed it we scored one try, early on, from what looked like a pre-planned move such as England have frequently used in the first 5 minutes under Jones. Hardly like our backs shone from phase play.

And savea is supposedly off to league.

king_carlos. wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:The centre combination that played Vs England never left Manu's pocket it physically dominated the pair of them and the hobbling Farrell managed to limp through the game.

I'd argue England battering the NZ pack up front decided more in the centres than anything. I do think it's worth noting that in 'the best performance from England in the Pro era' as many dubbed it we scored one try, early on, from what looked like a pre-planned move such as England have frequently used in the first 5 minutes under Jones. Hardly like our backs shone from phase play.

If your pack can dominate you are always on to a winner. Our backs made a lot of breaks that led to chances we didn't finish. The dropped pass from May's outside break, Underhill's disallowed try and that's before we get to Ben's disallowed try which didn't really involve the backs though. England left a lot of points out there.

If I was the All Blacks I'd be looking at a limping Farrell and asking my centres how they weren't able to take advantage against a hobbling IC, a diminutive 10 and an OC that likes to fly out the line. As it was Manu cut off the wide option for most the game in a defensive display he didn't get the credit for whilst the Kamakaze Kids cut down the AB backs who couldn't move the ball wide. Mo'unga looked very isolated.

Assuming Kruis goes off to Japan, that will presumably mean Lawes will need to revert to the second row. I am a big fan of Joe Launchbury but his attritional style of rugby seems to be catching up with his body. I just don't see what Eddie sees in Ewels. With Isiekwe and Kpoku - I just see players who are big and strong for their age who stand out at u20 level but are going to struggle when they meet the likes of Etzebeth and de Jager who are as big as they are.

So I am hoping that Eddie might actually pick a specialist 6 at 6 and a specialist 8 at 8. At 7 Curry and Underhill are clearly the best. At 8 Billy is the standout but with serious injury issues. Problem with playing Billy is his lack of lineout ability - hence the need for Lawes at 6. We therefore need a 6 with lineout ability, carrying ability and good workrate - not much of an ask there! Ted Hill seems to tick those boxes. Strange as it may seem in May 2020, the clock is ticking for the next world cup and one of the big things Eddie talked about in the past was the number of caps in the team, where you need over 500 historically to win a world cup. Eddie needs to be decisive and pick who he thinks will make up his world cup 2023 back row, taking into account that he is going to lose at least 1 of his first choice due to injury. So he needs to identify the 5 or 6 players who are his go to guys and stick with them.