Potential Lions Squad - The Half-Backs

Looking now to the 9/10 pairing. Who will make the plane? And crucially, who will start?

Both Gatland tours featured tried and tested, successful half back selections with no curveball selections. How will this tour be? Who may be left out this time?

2013 - Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs, Connor Murray / Jonathan Sexton, Owen Farrell
2017 -  Connor Murray, Rhys Webb, Ben Youngs (dropped out), Greig Laidlaw (replaced Youngs), Gareth Davies (called up as cover) / Dan Biggar, Owen Farrell, Jonathan Sexton, Finn Russell (called up as cover)

Below list of players from RWC 2019 and 6N 2020 squads

England

Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Ben Spencer, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jacob Umaga

Ireland

Luke McGrath, Connor Murray, John Cooney, Joey Carberry, Jack Carty, Jonathan Sexton

Scotland

Henry Pyrgos, George Horne, Ali Price, Finn Russell, Adam Hastings

Wales

Aled Davies, Gareth Davies, Rhys Webb, Tomos Williams, Dan Biggar, Jarrod Evans, Owen Williams, Rhys Patchell

Horne could make a case for himself if he gets more time in the driving seat this season, although I don't know if he's Gatlands type of player. Davies may make it and Youngs has a chance imo.

FH basically anyone but Finn. Gatland will have watched the quarrel in the Scotland camp and that's probably left a black mark against him permanently. It's a shame as he's proven how well he can slot into talented sides like the Barbarians and Racing and I think he would be a real asset. Hastings has an outsider's chance if he continues his improvement, and seems to listen to coaches more.

Expect though Farrell will tour for a third time to cover 10/12. Carberry has looked good, so has patchell but he's still a wee bit raw. Biggar probably will tour too.

So probably will look something like:

SHs - G Davies, B Youngs, A N Other

FH - Biggar, Farrell, carberry/patchell?

My picks would be Ben Youngs, Connor Murray, John Cooney / George Ford, Finn Russell and one of Dan Biggar, Rhys Patchell or Adam Hastings

Connor Murray and Ben Youngs are both stable, solid options for scrum half and John Cooney adds a bit of flare and speed. Unlucky to not be starting in the 6N I still think he should tour. A combination of him with Russell also really excites me as Russell is at his best with quick ball and a big pack to secure it.

I think Ford has been unlucky to miss out on previous tours and would be an excellent choice at 10 for the SA series. Owen Farrell could be playing at 12 and be down as potential cover for fly half. However, I am sure many rugby fans are licking their chops at the potential of a Russell/Farrell 10/12 pairing. If that were to work well in the warm up games then perhaps that could be the starting combination for the first test. Sexton, in my opinion, is too old now and this is a tour too far for him. One of Rhys Patchell, Adam Hastings and the more conservative choice of Dan Biggar could be good backup options. It'll be intersting to see who gets the nod or if Gatland will even bother with a 3rd Fly Half at all.

My 1st test pick - Youngs / Ford

My eyes are bleeding... Please remove Aled Davies from the list.

These are fairly strong positions for us.

The three 9's in contention from Wales are Davies, Williams and Webb - in no particular order.
The 10's are Biggar, Anscombe and Patchell - Evans isn't at the level required yet but he will be in future, where-as Owen Williams is out of contention now that he is in Japan.

Anscombe and Patchell will struggle at this point because they have been off injured for a long time.

I don't particularly rate the England 9's highly, except for Ben Youngs who is a decent player yet always has a stormer against Wales.

Unless Youngs form suddenly recovers to about 2016 he shouldn't be anywhere near this. Was carried in the world cup but always to looked second best to Heinz. Who also shouldn't be near this.

NeilyBroon wrote:Horne could make a case for himself if he gets more time in the driving seat this season, although I don't know if he's Gatlands type of player. Davies may make it and Youngs has a chance imo.

FH basically anyone but Finn. Gatland will have watched the quarrel in the Scotland camp and that's probably left a black mark against him permanently. It's a shame as he's proven how well he can slot into talented sides like the Barbarians and Racing and I think he would be a real asset. Hastings has an outsider's chance if he continues his improvement, and seems to listen to coaches more.

Expect though Farrell will tour for a third time to cover 10/12.  Carberry has looked good, so has patchell but he's still a wee bit raw. Biggar probably will tour too.

So probably will look something like:

SHs - G Davies, B Youngs, A N Other

FH - Biggar, Farrell, carberry/patchell?

I think Farrell will be down as a 12 rather than at FH for this tour, but maybe Gatland will not see it that way. As I'm sure you know I really rate Horne so would be very happy to see him tour, I guess it will all depend on form and who is getting the most game time at top level in the run up to the tour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unless Youngs form suddenly recovers to about 2016 he shouldn't be anywhere near this. Was carried in the world cup but always to looked second best to Heinz. Who also shouldn't be near this.

Really?? I think he's a great scrum half, I would be very happy to have him starting for Scotland.

I have a SA mate who was moaning about De Klerk the whole RWC right up until they won it, which I thought was ridiculous. So I can see how SH and FH can be positions that divide opinions, they dictate so much of what happens on the field.

bsando wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:Horne could make a case for himself if he gets more time in the driving seat this season, although I don't know if he's Gatlands type of player. Davies may make it and Youngs has a chance imo.

FH basically anyone but Finn. Gatland will have watched the quarrel in the Scotland camp and that's probably left a black mark against him permanently. It's a shame as he's proven how well he can slot into talented sides like the Barbarians and Racing and I think he would be a real asset. Hastings has an outsider's chance if he continues his improvement, and seems to listen to coaches more.

Expect though Farrell will tour for a third time to cover 10/12.  Carberry has looked good, so has patchell but he's still a wee bit raw. Biggar probably will tour too.

So probably will look something like:

SHs - G Davies, B Youngs, A N Other

FH - Biggar, Farrell, carberry/patchell?

I think Farrell will be down as a 12 rather than at FH for this tour, but maybe Gatland will not see it that way. As I'm sure you know I really rate Horne so would be very happy to see him tour, I guess it will all depend on form and who is getting the most game time at top level in the run up to the tour.

I think Farrell may be touring as a 10 to create space in the centres as there are plenty of options there and less at 10. It also depends whether Gatland can swallow his pride and select Russell from the get go, then Farrell may be picked as a centre instead so that the FHs would look something like Biggar, Russell, Patchell. Given how Russell was treated on the last tour I don't see this as a likelihood. If Toonie tours though I can see Hastings in with a better shout. No bad thing, Hastings has proved a very decent option for us and probably better suits Gatland's approach to the game.

Pencilled in at FH:
Farrell

Injury Prone: Sexton turns 35 in 9 days and will be 36 for the tour. Not sure what level he will be able to hit during the season. Carberry, Anscombe and Patchell have not established themselves to the point anyone can say they are a starting FH for their own nation. Owen Williams is not at a proven international standard (5 caps) and is about to play club rugby in Japan.

Other Starting FH's: Biggar has become more injury prone but not quite in the category yet. Approaching the end of his prime and is likely the favourite to go as Gatlands choice. Russell is arguably the most talented 10 in the northern hemisphere and yet is completely the wrong type of FH for Gatland. My pick as injury replacement cover, Hastings has proven capable this Six Nations as an international FH and leads one of the top Pro 14 sides, but his resume is not as long as those at the late 20's mark. Carty has been alright for Ireland if memory serves but needs reps to establish himself. Ford will likely go ahead of Russell as the third fly half due to the issues Russell had this Six Nations.

Youngsters: Evans is the Welsh fourth choice. Sam Davies is fifth. Probably too early for Umaga or Smith whose pathways are blocked. Maybe one or two will get a look in at extended training sessions before final selection of a squad. Really these guys should tour with their respective nations. The Bryne brothers playing at Leinster have real potential to kick on as well.

TL;DR
Farrell, Ford, Biggar
Injury Cover: Hastings

He has his fans bsando but I'm far from one of them now. Carried through the world cup in the hope he improved but his performance in the final was a big part in putting nails in the coffin. Slow in his decision making, slow and inaccurate in passing and seemingly forgotten how to mix it up and make breaks. 2 areas where england need drastic improvement and new blood is full back and scrum half.

I struggle to see Ford or Russell making the tour. Would love to see it, but just do not think it will happen.

As with all positions it could be a case if last man standing tours. We have so many games to fit in before then, and I think right now there is no change to the tour dates.

However, I am sure many rugby fans are licking their chops at the potential of a Russell/Farrell 10/12 pairing

My god NO!  that so would not work in any way.  totally different styles and Farrell is not a good centre.

I am a huge Russell fan and think he is the best 10 in the NH by a long long way but he is simply not a Gatland style player and the lions tour is too short for a team of strangers to gel around Russell.

Unless of course Gatland shocks us all and builds a team around Russell but Russell is a one off.  No one else plays like him and he needs familiar players around him

Wee George Horne is a fabulous player of huge potential but I think this tour is too soon for him. He has yet to develop the tactical nous needed as a lions 9

Ha. Farrell is class at either 10 or 12. Think hes proved that consistently by now!

LondonTiger wrote:I struggle to see Ford or Russell making the tour. Would love to see it, but just do not think it will happen.

As with all positions it could be a case if last man standing tours. We have so many games to fit in before then, and I think right now there is no change to the tour dates.

I pencilled Ford in as I thought he went last time!

Hard not to see at least one of them going. Gatland would be hard pressed taking Sexton AND Biggar who have had injury issues (more Sexton than Biggar). Three fly halves is the minimum needed and that really only leaves Hastings as a relatively established FH not named Ford and Russell if you only take one of the two above.

This is all assuming he takes Farrell at 10 which is where he should be played (Farrell's tackling at 12 has been called in to question numerous times and Damien De Allende is exactly the type of bulldozing 12 who will punish a player for going high).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Farrell is class at either 10 or 12. Think hes proved that consistently by now!

Completely outplayed by russell the last few times they have met. comprehensively shown up

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Farrell is class at either 10 or 12. Think hes proved that consistently by now!

Completely outplayed by russell the last few times they have met.  comprehensively shown up

You mean once in 2018.

Nope - Barbarians against England, callcutta cup twice, IIRC also a Racing / Sarries match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHdoRDvlZcc

Oh - and who can forget McInally outpacing Farrell to score a try!

So you're including matches that Farrell didn't even play in.

? Which matches? ( Am I being thick? )  Are you really attempting to say that Farrell can produce performances like that?

Having said all that I still don't think Russell is the man to be lions 10 ( unless Gatland builds a team around him).  It took years of playing with the same players for Russell to really click and I just don't think that the lions are best served by a player like Russell.  I think all that would happen is too many misreads and mistakes as not everyone would be on the same page as Russell.

I don't think Farrell is even the best 10 in England by a long way - but much as I really dislike him its clear he is actually a model professional, he plays a conventional game and for me its either him or Biggar for lions 10 especially in a Gatland coached team.  For example - on a deep kick Russell will ALWAYS look to counter attack.  Gatland wants a very planned and conventional 2 rucks to set up then return kick long

Ford is too flaky as is Cips.  Sexton is too old and fragile.

I also doubt Russell would cope well psychologically unless he is the main man

Farrell didn't play in the Barbarians match, probably best to check that before suggesting otherwise. The 38-38 seems to have taken on a mythical status where we ignore that Russell was just as garbage in the first half as Farrell was in the second half, neither really comes out of that match with much credit to their name.

Ta Soul!

Apart from Russell was man of the match in both Calcutta cup matches!

in the 38/38 match Russell didn't throw intercepts under pressure and his game go to pieces

But please notemy comments about who is most suitable to be lions 10

It seems like Russell stepped into the Racing team, AKA a Barbarians team and looked really good, so I don't buy that BS. Russell and Hastings would both be good options but it is a competitive position.

I see the fly halves split into 3 camps

The flair player / maverick - Russell, Carberry, Anscombe
The game managers - Farrell, Biggar
The all rounders - Hastings, Sexton, Ford

I'd be taking one of each, for me it's Russell, Farrell and Ford.

Goalkicking is an interesting one, now we don't have the Halfpenny security blanket, the 10 needs to be the kicker unless Farrell starts at 12

I mean he wasnt at all. And I've seen Russell self destruct countless times. I've seen the best players in the world play dreadfully. Farrell has consistently played at the highest level for years at inside centre and fly half. Again I know you have history of down rating english players but suggesting Farrell isnt sitting in the top class bracket is stretching it!

On SH's the argument is going to be brutal and more open to bolters

Past prime: Murray and Youngs were the men to go last time, however it is becoming clear their limitations are starting to show. Murray has started to become injury prone and both will need to do a O'Connell/Wilkinson and find a second act. I reckon one will go as the experienced head who can bench, whereas the other is likely to be ignored or injured in the end but who knows. Heinz (34 at time of tour), Care (34) and Webb (32) are other options but both should need a great season to get in. Webb probably has the easiest path to achieving it.

The Contenders:
- G Davies is the starting Welsh SH and has moved his game up a notch as well as being cover last time. A Davies is ineligible for Wales and would need to be much better to even be worth thinking about. T Williams is a good player, not sold on him being a top 10 SH in the home nations let alone a Lion
- L McGrath and Cooney are fighting it out for the Irish jersey (Marmion a bit as well) but McGrath has not convinced and Cooney was not trusted by the coaches even though he was the form club SH last year
- Price and G Horne have locked up the Scotland jersey but at Glasgow G Horne is considered the coming man whilst Price, the starter for Scotland, has recovered from some dreadful form. Price does not have the speed of pass for me to be effective when De Klerk and PSDT are leading the defensive line and G Horne will need to get him out the way to prove he has the game management to be competitive
- Ben Spencer needs a fantastic season at Bath and T Youngs or Heinz to be injured early to get his hat in the ring. Maybe an Exeter SH such as Townsend will come through now that Nic White is out the way? English SH's are a bit of struggle to find

Youth: The only thing here is someone unexpected rising such as Vellacott at Wasps or Dobie at Glasgow. I am sure there is a bunch coming through at every club, though I really have no feel on who is likely to become a club's no.1 and get an international role by the Six Nations.


TL; DR
Gareth Davies, Murray and/or Youngs, maybe Webb
Injury Replacement: Right now Cooney but who knows

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mean he wasnt at all. And I've seen Russell self destruct countless times. I've seen the best players in the world play dreadfully. Farrell has consistently played at the highest level for years at inside centre and fly half. Again I know you have history of down rating english players but suggesting Farrell isnt sitting in the top class bracket is stretching it!

I think there is a bit of a difficulty in assessing Farrell. He plays in a club side that has a dominant pack and an England side that has front foot ball on a plate. Russell looks far more consistent now at Racing which have a far more dominant pack than Glasgow and Scotland had/have. Ford had a bad time of it at Bath when their pack was struggling and I think it is a testament to him that he has played some great games at Leicester where the pack was/has been struggling recently. It is not to say that Farrell is not a great player and a respected locker room leader because he has been good enough for long enough to prove it. He has played in big games and kicked fantastically...he has also been known to tackle high and lose composure. Russell and Ford we have seen have stinkers more frequently behind packs that are, frankly, not as good as Sarries or England but is it a case of trying to do too much or are they just not as consistent?

To borrow from football, it is like a striker who consistently bangs in 20 goals for Man U vs a striker who gets 12-14 for Norwich. At Man U, you will get a great chance every game but Norwich the midfield is going to feed you scraps. There is no way of knowing whether either will translate to the other if they swap places but what is the greater feat?

Russell has also learnt game management and BTW is a better kicker than Farrell.

Its a long time since Russell had a total brainfart game

Not really seen ford have that many stinkers behind leicesters pack which is not what it was Hazel.i am wholly in favour of not just basing what a player is like based on his team as I said on the other thread. I'll just go back and I raised that as tj said that farrell is not a good centre. That's just fantasy.

The tackling point ignores tactics for saracens and England as well. Been discussed countless times. Always high kissed tackle stats for both.

My problem with Ford is not his bravery, his overall talent or his skills. It's his insistence on trying to tackle large players at chest height. Whilst he may slow them down, he doesn't have the weight behind him to stop them in their tracks. I really rate him as a player, but against a rampaging Springbok team, I can't see him being big enough.

I don't see Sexton touring as he'll probably be broken or retired. Farrell and Biggar are the likely test specimens in my eyes. There's such a question mark over Gatland's opinion of Russell. He may tour, but I am not sure he'll be in the test side. I have doubts whether Patchell and Anscombe will be back to their best after their long lay-offs. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong. Expect Hastings to be on injury cover alert.

Any (or all) of the three Wales scrum halves in Davies, Tomos Williams & Webb should go, particularly the first two. Davies always seems to produce something amazing from nothing. I also really like Pyrgos and Cooney. Both could end up touring. Murray I feel has now peaked and will be a little behind the pace needed. As for England, I think Ben Youngs (as stated above) needs to regain some form before he's selected. Experience is his only trump card. Heinz won't go, and I doubt Eddie will cap anyone else for now. (WHY???!!!).

I think all the players we are discussing for Lions contention are excellent players for their respective countries. Do England fans think Farrell is a better 10 or 12 though? I thought he had pretty much become England's first choice inside centre with the ability to play 10 when needed.

With Ford you get a good rugby brain without the flash stuff that Russell provides. In the Calcutta Cup this year, despite the weather, Ford did a really good job and won the game for England with his well placed kick through that resulted in Hogg having to scramble for it on his own try line. I think having one of Ford or Russell and Farrell as backup you're pretty well covered at 10. If Ford starts you know you have Russell to come on and change things up if they're trailing.

In terms of Wales and Ireland, I think they're both in a transitional phase with their younger fly halves and combinations. I really like Carberry and think he should really be starting games ahead of Sexton now. Anscombe and Patchell are both great players so they may come into the reckoning by next years tour as well if either can get a run of games and Biggar always seems to play well for Northampton and Wales. I was very impressed with Hastings in the 6N this year, his last game was probably his best for Scotland so far.

Mind you perhaps Russell could be included for comedy value?

TJ wrote:Mind you perhaps Russell could be included for comedy value?

Was that when there was a try that obviously wasn't meant to be a try so he just wanted to bash it over before the ref could see the replay?

I can't see Russell touring, and unless Gatland uses him for more than 5 minutes I'd rather he didn't tour, he'd be better off with Scotland.

Hastings is probably better suited to it as I think he's more the sort of player Gatland likes and therefore would get more time, even if it is as part of the midweek squad.

Still, I expect we'll have no representation in the half backs next year unless Scotland manage to upset the apple cart against Wales later this year and make inroads during the 6Ns, both of which are possible-to-unlikely.

Yeah I remember Nathan Hines hurried him up unnecessarily and they argued about it after he missed it. That was a really daft moment.

Anyone know if Wales are even playing Scotland this year?

Gatland will be looking at both Anscombe and Bigger over Russell. even though neither would get on Racings bench

9’s, I like any from Cooney, Webb, Murray, Young & Price.

10’s, Ford, Russell, Biggar, Carbery and Carty. Farrell at 10 maybe, depending on centres.

alive555 wrote:Gatland will be looking at both Anscombe and Bigger over Russell. even though neither would get on Racings bench

Yeah of course they wouldn’t. Nugget

alive555 wrote:Gatland will be looking at both Anscombe and Bigger over Russell. even though neither would get on Racings bench

Hmm, I don't know if that's quite true. On their day, both can be as good as Ben Volavola or Trinh Duc, so I think they could maybe make it on the bench

BamBam wrote:

alive555 wrote:Gatland will be looking at both Anscombe and Bigger over Russell. even though neither would get on Racings bench

Hmm, I don't know if that's quite true. On their day, both can be as good as Ben Volavola or Trinh Duc, so I think they could maybe make it on the bench

you make a remarkably good point

Who keeps removing my comments? I’d like to make a complaint about you.

On the point of English scrum halves, with Reinach gone, Mitchell will get a lot more game time, we know from the Barbarians game and his inclusion in the various squads that EJ likes him. He could be in with a chance if he has a good season; if we have a season.

Is Max Malins going to Bristol as predominantly a 15 or 10 this season...?

If its 10 and he has a good season...then he could be a wild card..the boy is class and has it all

I would personally go with three Welshies at scrum half: Webb, Davies and Williams.

At fly half I would take Farrell, Ford and Russell.

9.Webb
10.Russell
12.Farrell

Bench: Davies and Ford

No chance in hell of Gatland doing this of course.

TJ wrote:Farrell is not a good centre.

And yet he is regularly picked to play there in the RWC semi-finalists and the highest ranking NH team by one of the best and most experienced international coaches. Odd isn't it?

I don't know what it is about Farrell that coaches love him but many fans don't. His name is one of the fixtures on the team sheet at the best club side in Europe and the top NH team.

He will definitely be in the starting fifteen for the Lions. Whether it is ten or twelve will depend on whether Gatland thinks the centres or half backs are most in need of bolstering. To be honest both fly-half and centres are not positions of great strength for the Lions at the moment so it is anyone's guess.

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:Farrell is not a good centre.

And yet he is regularly picked to play there in the RWC semi-finalists and the highest ranking NH team by one of the best and most experienced international coaches. Odd isn't it?

I don't know what it is about Farrell that coaches love him but many fans don't. He name is one of the fixtures on the team sheet at the best club side in Europe and the top NH team.

He will definitely be in the starting fifteen for the Lions. Whether it is ten or twelve will depend on whether Gatland thinks the centres or half backs are most in need of bolstering. To be honest both fly-half and centres are not positions of great strength for the Lions at the moment so it is anyone's guess.

Farrell played for Wales?

LondonTiger wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:Farrell is not a good centre.

And yet he is regularly picked to play there in the RWC semi-finalists and the highest ranking NH team by one of the best and most experienced international coaches. Odd isn't it?

I don't know what it is about Farrell that coaches love him but many fans don't. His name is one of the fixtures on the team sheet at the best club side in Europe and the top NH team.

He will definitely be in the starting fifteen for the Lions. Whether it is ten or twelve will depend on whether Gatland thinks the centres or half backs are most in need of bolstering. To be honest both fly-half and centres are not positions of great strength for the Lions at the moment so it is anyone's guess.

Farrell played for Wales?

Good point! Finalists.