2020 World Championship Thread

[CaledonianCraig]

First topic message reminder :

How about a thread to discuss the 2020 World Snooker Championships at The Crucible.

The delayed tournament starts today with a limited audience allowed in to watch the matches. The draw is as follows:-

Judd Trump (1) v Tom Ford
Yan Bingtao (16) v Elliot Slessor
Stephen Maguire (9) v Martin Gould
Kyren Wilson (8) - BYE
John Higgins (5) v Matthew Stevens
David Gilbert (12) v Kurt Maflin
Jack Lisowski (13) v Anthony McGill
Mark Allen (4) v Jamie Clarke
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Mark Williams (3) v Alan McManus
Stuart Bingham (14) v Ashley Carty
Ding Junhui (11) v Mark King
Ronnie O’Sullivan (6) v Thepchaiya Un-Nooh
Mark Selby (7) v Jordan Brown
Shaun Murphy (10) v Noppon Saengkham
Barry Hawkins (15) v Alexander Ursenbacher
Neil Robertson (2) v Liang Wenbo

Anthony Hamilton who suffers from asthma and qualified for the tournament has withdrawn due to COVID-19 and the fact there will be fans attending. This means Kyren Wilson gets a bye through to the Second Round.

This year there are five players making their Crucible debuts those being Elliot Slessor (England), Jordan Brown (Northern Ireland), Ashley Carty (England), Alexander Ursenbacher (Switzerland - the first Swiss player to play at the Crucible) and Jamie Clarke (Wales).

[88Chris05]

And so a session which was an unmitigated disaster for Wilson comes to an end. This occasion looks to have been a bit too big for him and he hasn't given of his best.

That pink he missed in frame 19 seemed to change it all. He'd looked very good in the early goings today - looked set to close to 9-10, but blew the opportunity and it just went from bad to worse from that point on.

[Duty281]

Blistering session from Ronnie to all-but confirm his sixth World title, 20th triple crown event, and 37th ranking title.

I hope Ronnie doesn't retire this evening, and that he goes on to level, or even better, Hendry's mark of seven modern world titles, as well as continuing to entertain us all.

I think Wilson's played at a similar level to his semi-final against McGill; it's just his errors have been punished far more ruthlessly.

[CaledonianCraig]

Congratulations to O'Sullivan on his sixth World title. Wilson just not at the races and leaving golden chances to O'Sullivan.

Sadly, one of the most instantly forgettable finals of this millenium without a doubt. Neither player firing and a no contest to boot. I wonder what triple bill of films the BBC will fill the schedule with tonight?

[Soul Requiem]

Not bad for the worst final performance we've ever seen.

[Duty281]

Well done Ronnie.

The greatest draws level with Davis and Reardon and continues his remarkable record in Crucible finals - six wins and one loss. He played superbly this afternoon and excellently to overcome Williams and Selby from tough positions. A more than worthy champion. Hope he continues in this vein for years to come and entertains us for many more tournaments.

Overall, a good World Championship with plenty of close finishes and a fine standard, considering the truncated snooker calendar and extraordinary conditions.

[Guest]

Congratulations to O’Sullivan, six times champion pretty epic hopefully he sticks around to get numbers 7 and 8. Commiserations to Wilson nerves got him but there should be more chances down the line.

[88Chris05]

The pressure heaped on O'Sullivan throughout his career ("break every winning record in the game, or else you've underachieved and failed to reach your potential") has often been unfair, but his run to the title this year really does bolster the idea that he should have already laid waste to Hendry's Crucible record quite some time ago.

Not because he played at an extraordinary level - he didn't. But because of precisely the opposite. He really wasn't at his best for much of the Championship, he's the oldest winner in more than forty years (at an age when Davis and Hendry were never anywhere near threatening to win a major title, in fact in Hendry's case he'd already retired) and he even looked as if he didn't want to be there at times. Yet despite all that, here he is picking up the trophy again and turning the final into a procession.

In fact, based on who he's beaten, you could argue that this is his best Crucible win. Thepchaiya was hopelessly outclassed in the first round, but after that he had to beat probably the best player never to win the world title in Ding in the second round, a three-time winner Williams in the quarters and then another three-time winner in Selby in the semis. World ranked #11, 3 and 7 respectively. Struggled at times during all of those matches, but showed an amazing killer instinct in the closing stages to find his better form just when it mattered most.

Winning the title despite that hard route and generally not being at his best, while being 44 years old, perhaps adds credence to his idea that the young guns of the game just aren't up the job...But that's for another time, maybe. It certainly, however, leaves you wondering how Hendry's Crucible record is still intact - and still may remain intact further down the line - when O'Sullivan is blessed with such utter genius and mind-boggling longevity. Coming up to twenty-seven years since his first ranking title, over nineteen since his first Crucible one and, while you could easily envisage him crashing out in the first round one year, it's still just as easy to envisage him storming to another world title out of the blue the following one. Oddly enough, this is the third time he's won the title having fell at the first hurdle the year before.

Such an unpredictable genius. He could end up never winning it again and staying on 6, and I could just as easily see him winning 8 or 9 before he's done, going well into his fifties. It's just the nature of him.

[eirebilly]

I didn't think it was a bad final. Wilson understandably nervous in his first ever World Final and who wouldn't be, especially since his opponent was ROS.

Congrats to Ronnie, a very deserved World Champion again.

[Soul Requiem]

A lot of the criticism of Ronnie in the final is based on how well we know he can play and to be honest he's not played like that since 2013 when he was ridiculously good. Was it a stellar performance? By no means but at the same time he would have beaten almost anybody playing like that.

[JDizzle]

Ronnie’s long potting has been fairly poor for a while now. It’s what holds him back from the heights he has hit in the past, but in the balls he is still so much better than anyone else and the final just showed that was the big gulf in class between the two. But to expect the final to live up the tensions of the two semis would have just been greedy.

[No name Bertie]

In Ronnie's winners speech he said this long format doesn't suit him, he is not an endurance snooker player, if he matches or betters Stephen Hendry's World titles record it would only be due to longevity and not that he was "better" than him in this format.

[Soul Requiem]

That's just Ronnie being Ronnie, he's far more susceptible to losing in the shorter format matches just like everyone is, suggesting the longer formats doesn't suit him is a nonsense and ignores his 20 triple crown titles.

Comparing him with Davis and Hendry is a tricky one, he's won more overall and is more talented but ultimately hasn't had a period of domination like they did with both being imperious for a whole decade, tend to think the three of them are fairly fluid as a top three with Higgins and Williams a fair distance behind with Selby slightly further back than that.

[superflyweight]

That's just Ronnie being Ronnie, he's far more susceptible to losing in the shorter format matches just like everyone is, suggesting the longer formats doesn't suit him is a nonsense and ignores his 20 triple crown titles.

Comparing him with Davis and Hendry is a tricky one, he's won more overall and is more talented but ultimately hasn't had a period of domination like they did with both being imperious for a whole decade, tend to think the three of them are fairly fluid as a top three with Higgins and Williams a fair distance behind with Selby slightly further back than that.

That seems a fairly fair assessment but woud probably put Hendy and O'Sullivan out front with Davis just ever so slightly behind and then Higgins a bit ahead of Williams. I think, at times, that John just lacks a bit of motivation (or fire in his belly) that was certainly evident in Hendry and Davis, otherwise he would be in the conversation with the other three.

[Soul Requiem]

That's just Ronnie being Ronnie, he's far more susceptible to losing in the shorter format matches just like everyone is, suggesting the longer formats doesn't suit him is a nonsense and ignores his 20 triple crown titles.

Comparing him with Davis and Hendry is a tricky one, he's won more overall and is more talented but ultimately hasn't had a period of domination like they did with both being imperious for a whole decade, tend to think the three of them are fairly fluid as a top three with Higgins and Williams a fair distance behind with Selby slightly further back than that.

That seems a fairly fair assessment but woud probably put Hendy and O'Sullivan out front with Davis just ever so slightly behind and then Higgins a bit ahead of Williams.  I think, at times, that John just lacks a bit of motivation (or fire in his belly) that was certainly evident in Hendry and Davis, otherwise he would be in the conversation with the other three.      

Somewhat true with Higgins, wrong time for him to an extent i'd say as well; he's had Hendry, Williams, O'Sullivan and Selby to contend with so to come out of that with four world titles is no mean feat in itself especially when you factor in being runner up to three of them as well as Trump. Chuck him into the early 90's instead of Hendry and he too wins 7 titles or Davis' 6 in the 80's but alas was not to be. It's no real surprise that there hasn't been a single dominant player since Hendry. Timing is sometimes everything.

[superflyweight]

That's just Ronnie being Ronnie, he's far more susceptible to losing in the shorter format matches just like everyone is, suggesting the longer formats doesn't suit him is a nonsense and ignores his 20 triple crown titles.

Comparing him with Davis and Hendry is a tricky one, he's won more overall and is more talented but ultimately hasn't had a period of domination like they did with both being imperious for a whole decade, tend to think the three of them are fairly fluid as a top three with Higgins and Williams a fair distance behind with Selby slightly further back than that.

That seems a fairly fair assessment but woud probably put Hendy and O'Sullivan out front with Davis just ever so slightly behind and then Higgins a bit ahead of Williams.  I think, at times, that John just lacks a bit of motivation (or fire in his belly) that was certainly evident in Hendry and Davis, otherwise he would be in the conversation with the other three.      

Somewhat true with Higgins, wrong time for him to an extent i'd say as well; he's had Hendry, Williams, O'Sullivan and Selby to contend with so to come out of that with four world titles is no mean feat in itself especially when you factor in being runner up to three of them as well as Trump. Chuck him into the early 90's instead of Hendry and he too wins 7 titles or Davis' 6 in the 80's but alas was not to be. It's no real surprise that there hasn't been a single dominant player since Hendry. Timing is sometimes everything.

It should have been Ronnie, but a short period of relentless dominance isn't in his make-up and probably would have finished off his career about a decade ago. But even then no guarantees because, as you say, timing means he's had a peak Higgins, Williams and Selby to contend with.

[Soul Requiem]

That's just Ronnie being Ronnie, he's far more susceptible to losing in the shorter format matches just like everyone is, suggesting the longer formats doesn't suit him is a nonsense and ignores his 20 triple crown titles.

Comparing him with Davis and Hendry is a tricky one, he's won more overall and is more talented but ultimately hasn't had a period of domination like they did with both being imperious for a whole decade, tend to think the three of them are fairly fluid as a top three with Higgins and Williams a fair distance behind with Selby slightly further back than that.

That seems a fairly fair assessment but woud probably put Hendy and O'Sullivan out front with Davis just ever so slightly behind and then Higgins a bit ahead of Williams.  I think, at times, that John just lacks a bit of motivation (or fire in his belly) that was certainly evident in Hendry and Davis, otherwise he would be in the conversation with the other three.      

Somewhat true with Higgins, wrong time for him to an extent i'd say as well; he's had Hendry, Williams, O'Sullivan and Selby to contend with so to come out of that with four world titles is no mean feat in itself especially when you factor in being runner up to three of them as well as Trump. Chuck him into the early 90's instead of Hendry and he too wins 7 titles or Davis' 6 in the 80's but alas was not to be. It's no real surprise that there hasn't been a single dominant player since Hendry. Timing is sometimes everything.

It should have been Ronnie, but a short period of relentless dominance isn't in his make-up and probably would have finished off his career about a decade ago.  But even then no guarantees because, as you say, timing means he's had a peak Higgins, Williams and Selby to contend with.    

Higgins would always have stopped O'Sullivan being dominant, there's a lot of talk about Ronnie beating himself against guys like Selby but Higgins used to just play him off the table with a combination of relentlessly high scoring and a supreme safety game. I can't really remember Williams beating O'Sullivan at the crucible but am not doubt overlooking a couple of matches and they have definitely never faced each other in a major final.

[88Chris05]

I might have a skewed view as he was, for many years, my favourite player and is still right up there as such, but I think there's a case to be made that Higgins has marginally underachieved in his career, crazy as that sounds given his huge accomplishments. I found it interesting last year when Mark Williams commented that, in his opinion, Higgins is the second-greatest player of all time and that he'd actually put him ahead of Hendry on his list (he also tweeted the other day that Higgins has always been in a 'totally different league' to himself, despite his own record being not a million miles away from John's, albeit he does trail).

I suspect for most people a gap of three world titles (I don't see Higgins adding to his four, though you never write him off) between Higgins and Hendry would be just be too wide for them to consider putting Higgins ahead, but an interesting thought nonetheless.

He's come close these past few years - obviously couldn't do anything against an inspired Trump who produced, quite simply, the best performance I've ever seen at the Crucible last year - and in particular the 2017 final loss against Selby must irk him, because he had a 10-4 lead without playing particularly well and failed to turn to screw in the second session when Selby was completely there for the taking. But I think with Higgins it's the nine year gap between his first and second world titles which is most surprising and has probably cost him a little in the GOAT race. You'd have thought he'd have been at the perfect age to take advantage of favourable fields and circumstances and convert his opportunities into at least one more Crucible triumph during those years - it's ironic that he actually filled his boots and won additional titles in 2007, 2009 and 2011 when he was getting a little older and when the field was starting to get tougher again. He really lost his way in particular between 2001 and 2004 when he went three years without a ranking win of any kind.

Again, it sounds mental labelling a four-time world champion as an underachiever, but when you consider his longevity, complete all-round game and the opportunities he's had, it always feels to me that his record is a world title or two short of what it should be. There's every chance, for instance, that Selby will match his four - hell, he may even creep past it. Yet for me, tremendous player though he is, Selby just isn't as good as a prime Higgins was by any means and it would feel slightly strange if this were to happen.

In terms of who belongs at the very top, though, I personally think O'Sullivan went past Hendry quite a few years ago, and nowadays I really struggle to see much of an argument in Hendry's favour.

[Soul Requiem]

When players like Dott, Bingham, Murphy, Robertson and Ebdon have won world titles in that time it does add credence to the idea that Higgins has under performed somewhat but the same is also true of O'Sullivan of course and Mark Williams who inexplicably went off the boil after his title win in 2003, he'd been producing some of the best snooker i've ever seen in the preceding years.

[Duty281]

I agree that Higgins has underachieved, with 'only' four world titles out of eight crucible finals, including that incredible run recently where he reached three finals in a row and turned into Jimmy White. Not a lot he could have done about the Trump final, agreed, but he really should have defeated Selby and was so close to defeating Williams in 2018. In the final against Williams, Higgins was 10-15 down going into the final session, and he rattled off the first five frames of the session to level it at 15-15. From there it only looked as though the Scot could win, but Williams showed remarkable spirit and fortitude to get over the line 18-16. The long format of the Crucible also suits Higgins' superb tactical and safety game, so that's another reason for being disappointed that he 'only' ended up with four.

Six World titles means Higgins would be looked at very differently. But with four, I feel as though he's outside the trio of 'O'Sullivan, Hendry, Davis' and finds himself in the 'best of the rest' category in terms of all-time ranking in the modern era. Of course, that could still change and he could finish up with five or six, but it looks pretty unlikely. I can see an argument that Higgins should be rated higher than Davis, but it's tough to rank him higher than Hendry with the gap of three world titles between them.

I've also had O'Sullivan as the GOAT for a short while. If he levels or eclipses Hendry's haul of seven, I think it all-but ends the debate. That's the only statistic left in Hendry's favour, I believe. And I'm more impressed by O'Sullivan's remarkable longevity (which shows no sign of abating yet) than I am by Hendry's period of sustained dominance in the 90s.

[88Chris05]

When players like Dott, Bingham, Murphy, Robertson and Ebdon have won world titles in that time it does add credence to the idea that Higgins has under performed somewhat but the same is also true of O'Sullivan of course and Mark Williams who inexplicably went off the boil after his title win in 2003, he'd been producing some of the best snooker i've ever seen in the preceding years.

Williams (who is right up there with my favourites, too) is always an interesting one to try and rate. Is he an underachiever? Overachiever? Or do his achievements more or less match up with his gifts? Is his propensity to flitter between long spells of consistent winning and equally long spells of barren form over the years a sign of him just lacking motivation, serious shortcomings in his game or a mixture?

He's a fascinating player because his game displays so many polar opposites which, in theory, shouldn't be possible. He's naturally gifted and in some ways has particular talents all of his own, yet at the same time can look amateurish and like a carthorse compared to some of the smoother cueists on tour. He won his first ranking event with a highest break of just 74 across all six matches he played in it with not that many other breaks over fifty, and tends to win drawn-out frames, yet you'd describe him as more of an attacking player than a cagey, tactical one. Compared variously to Hendry, Higgins and O'Sullivan, he was always lacking in cue ball control, consistent scoring and cue power, yet he was the most successful and consistent of that golden quartet for a few years between 1998 and 2003.

Sometimes the balance would tilt badly towards the less desirable of those polar extremes, though, in a way which it never did for those other guys. As a result Williams' worst form seemed to be so, so much poorer than theirs and his B-game a lot less reliable. When he was bad, he was really bad and you couldn't believe you were looking at a multiple world title winner and world number one. I remember for a few years around c. 2006-2008 he looked positive hopeless at times (no exaggeration), and he wasn't much better around c. 2014-2016, admittedly with some decent form crammed in between. His revival in the 2017/2018 season, which culminated in that Crucible win, was utterly astonishing. He'd looked dead and buried as a potential world title winner a full decade before than, never mind just a few years.

As I said, compared to some of the other leading players he's pretty badly outclassed in terms of cue ball control, scoring, cue power and focus / motivation, but he's made up for it with his single-ball potting, unbelievably creative shot-making ability and his ability to play every frame in pretty much the same way regardless of the score, the situation of the table or the pressure. He's got such a brilliantly unique and inimitable game and there's nobody else quite like him in a few different regards.

[Soul Requiem]

With Williams his desire seemed to wane after 2003 when it should have been at it's peak, winning all three triple crown events in one season is a seriously impressive achievement which makes his subsequent fall from grace even more frustrating but as you say his actual qualities as a player are hard to define beyond being the best single ball potter I have ever seen. Much like Hendry and Davis his form can be traced back to when he became a parent which seems to have more of an adverse effect on Snooker players than almost any other sport (game), it must be the meticulous nature of doing the same thing for hours on end day after day, with athletic sports their training is somewhat varied for obvious reasons.

A lot of the issues with Williams and his break building were partly down to him not caring about scoring centuries, he was very good at making frame winning contributions then switched off just wanting to get on with the next frame which I did quite like actually, it was almost as if playing on with the frame safe affected his concentration.

[Duty281]

The World Seniors Championship concluded today, with Jimmy White successfully defending his title. He completed a quite incredible comeback against Ken Doherty - 0-4 down at the mid session interval, 5-4 winner at the end.

[CaledonianCraig]

I agree that Higgins has underachieved, with 'only' four world titles out of eight crucible finals, including that incredible run recently where he reached three finals in a row and turned into Jimmy White. Not a lot he could have done about the Trump final, agreed, but he really should have defeated Selby and was so close to defeating Williams in 2018. In the final against Williams, Higgins was 10-15 down going into the final session, and he rattled off the first five frames of the session to level it at 15-15. From there it only looked as though the Scot could win, but Williams showed remarkable spirit and fortitude to get over the line 18-16. The long format of the Crucible also suits Higgins' superb tactical and safety game, so that's another reason for being disappointed that he 'only' ended up with four.

Six World titles means Higgins would be looked at very differently. But with four, I feel as though he's outside the trio of 'O'Sullivan, Hendry, Davis' and finds himself in the 'best of the rest' category in terms of all-time ranking in the modern era. Of course, that could still change and he could finish up with five or six, but it looks pretty unlikely. I can see an argument that Higgins should be rated higher than Davis, but it's tough to rank him higher than Hendry with the gap of three world titles between them.

Hard to say Higgins is an under-achiever or not? Higgins matchplay is superb and I think he must be the king of frame-winning clearances from impossible positions in one visit. However, he is a very intense player. By that I mean he puts so much mental effort into every shot and it even shows on his face whilst cueing the ball. That kind of mental energy must drain you a heck of a lot and have him running on empty in that department come finals hence he has lost as many as he has won. Other players go about the game differently. Players like Mark Williams are so laid back and relaxed around the table it is incredible. Ronnie can and often does switch off for various reasons which sometimes can be detrimental to him but I'd say it also helps preserve mental energy. That is my take on it.

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