Bolters for the RWC

Pick just one player that probably wouldn't be expected by the vast majority of punters (excluding your knowledgeable selves!) to make the plane for your country to the RWC & justify it.

For Scotland, mine would be Dave Denton (DD's Edinburgh profile)). A surprise inclusion for Andy Robinson's extended training squad (40-strong provisional squad), I think there's an outside chance that Denton will be on that plane - if Johnnie Beattie fails to find the form that he demonstrated before his injury, then the Killer Bs will not be happening out in NZ. With Beattie unavailable this season for AIs and still on the comeback trail during the 6Ns, Robbo has looked either to Richie Vernon at the back of the scrum or to play Kelly Brown at 8, with Nathan Hines filling in on the blindside. Neither of these alternatives was entirely satisfactory for me - Vernon, despite his skill set, remains just too lightweight for me at this level, and equally Brown is not a natural 8 (altho he didn't by any means disgrace himself in that position) nor Hines a natural 6 (just not quite quick enough, and imo I'd much prefer to see him starting alongside Richie Gray in the boiler room). I believe that the best backrow units tend to be greater than the sum of their individual parts, and for that reason, I would seriously consider replacing Beattie with his nearest equivalent, Dave Denton - he is the perfect comlpement to Barclay and Brown

I suppose from a Welsh POV the only one would be Matthew Morgan but I can't see Gatland picking ANYONE who isn't in his 45 man squad unless forced to do so by injury.

Ireland- Conor Murray

Gents, care to elaborate on the reasons you'd recommend Morgan and Murray's surprise selections?

Notch wrote:Ireland- Conor Murray

Agreed. Felix Jones also.

Both players have extablished themselves as arguably the best Irish players in their positions.

McFadden is a bt of a bolter too and surely has done enough to get on the plane.

Henry Trinder could well be Englands' 'bolter'. Has been very impressive in the Saxons and centre seems to have been an issue for England for a while now.

Reminds me of a young Conrad Smith. Not the biggest, but good pace and reads the game exceptionally well for a young guy. I think with him at 13 outside of a crash ball 12 (Hape/Banahan???) who can draw players and offload, England would look very dangerous indeed.

Will Johnson gamble, who knows, but given the fact that none of our centres have really shone consistently over the past 2 years it may be worth him taking a punt on this one!

As

I don't know much about Denton at all. If he is as you say a similar player to Beattie he may well be worth a punt, as the killer B's were fantastic in the 2010 6 Nations.

Hines is no 6 and would be a terrible choice to play there in the World Cup.

On second thoughts I would love to see Lloyd Burns in the WC Squad which would be seen as bit of a bolter I suppose.

In the big picture that would hopefully mean he has finally seen how rubbish Bennett is

Knoyle will go whilst Phillips won't. Scott Williams another potential bolted from Wales.

Conor Murray and Felix Jones. Donnacha Ryan while not exactly a bolter will get the back row / second row cover slot.

Well, Conor murray is a guy who has come into the Munster first team and has displaced O'Leary and Stringer. They can't get their game for Munster at the moment so impressive has young Murray been.

Scrum-half is an area where we have a lot of quite average players. If there's going to be a bolter, it would probably be there.

Impossible to imagine Lièvremont selecting an unknown;there is Lakafia who has come on immensely this season for BO,but with Hari and Pica,there may not be a place for him.

Isn;t the French 32 (to become 30) basically set in stone? Or will he tear it up and try again? I never quite know what that man will do...

Yeh, Notch,very little chance of changes.

BlueMuff wrote:Conor Murray and Felix Jones. Donnacha Ryan while not exactly a bolter will get the back row / second row cover slot.

Donacha Ryan isn't a bad shout but will he get in ahead of McGlaughlin? I doubt it. Mick O'Driscoll looks out of the picture though so i'd say the final second row spot is between Thouhy, Ryan and MCGlaughlin.

I'd say Ryan is our man given his late season form. I really hope he gets a big role in the warm-ups and travels.

Scott Wiiliams
If their are injuries, Lloyd Williams
Justin Tipuric perhaps

BlueMuff wrote:Conor Murray and Felix Jones. Donnacha Ryan while not exactly a bolter will get the back row / second row cover slot.

Very, very lucky yesterday, BM

Hopefully see you in Thurles in a couple of weeks.


I don't think Conor Murray will be going (lack of gametime with both Sexton & Heislip for one thing). But I do think the other two will go (Ryan & Jones).

Notch wrote:I'd say Ryan is our man given his late season form. I really hope he gets a big role in the warm-ups and travels.

At who's expense Notch? Do you think McGlaughlin or Tuohy will make it, assuming ferris is fit?

No. He will travel at their expense, being imo a better player and more capable of covering both lock and backrow than either.

[quote="Sin é"]

BlueMuff wrote:

I don't think Conor Murray will be going (lack of gametime with both Sexton & Heislip for one thing).

I hope you are wrong Sin. It will be a big mistake if Kidney leaves out murray for TOL.

rodders, this what is known as a 'threadjack'. Please try to restrain yourself and direct the discussion towards World Cup bolters!

The topic is potential bolters from all nations, not the composition of Irelands World Cup squad.

OOOOPs,Lakafia is already in the 32/30 looks bad for Domingo and Rougerie news on their injuries is not optimistic,but there again looks good for ASM

Barcella has started running and Szarzewski is in Florida in a fitness camp.

Fair point Notch!

[quote="roddersm"]

Sin é wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

I don't think Conor Murray will be going (lack of gametime with both Sexton & Heislip for one thing).

I hope you are wrong Sin. It will be a big mistake if Kidney leaves out murray for TOL.

If he goes, it won't be at the expense of O'Leary, more likely it will be at the expense of Stringer.

While O'Leary hasn't been playing well, its worth remembering that when he has played he was playing with a back injury.

Notch wrote:rodders, this what is known as a 'threadjack'. Please try to restrain yourself and direct the discussion towards World Cup bolters!

The topic is potential bolters from all nations, not the composition of Irelands World Cup squad.

Surely you need discuss why they are bolters?

Yeah, but when we get into the minutiae of selection it tens to overshadow the contributions of posters from other countries.

I don't think you could call Donnacha Ryan (who has played against France in the six nations in Paris) or McFadden (who has also played in the six nations and scored a try against France) bolters in the traditional sense. Felix Jones and Conor Murray on the other hand have both never played for Ireland so are definitely bolters and, if I was picking the list of 30, they'd both be on it. I'd be surprised if they didn't get a shot in the warm up matches anyway and if they outperform their direct competition hopefully Deccie won't hesitate to bring them.

No but a few months ago you wouldn't have fancied Ryan or McFadden to be there. They've gone from rank outsiders to real probables in the latter half of the season. In that sense they are "bolters".

Notch wrote:Yeah, but when we get into the minutiae of selection it tens to overshadow the contributions of posters from other countries.

Fair enough, but I suppose most other teams were a year ahead of Ireland in the world cup cycle so are less likely to have bolters. (For example, Livremont must have tried out every rugby player to put on a pair of boots in France).

Glas a du wrote:Knoyle will go whilst Phillips won't. Scott Williams another potential bolted from Wales.

Knoyle wouldn't be considered a bolter as he is named in the 45 man squad and been involved in previous squads.

Phillips exclusion (if happened) would be seen as a huge shock though IMO.

Don't think Morgan will go but he had storming game in the U20s game on weekend and if continues his form throughout the tournament then he may be seen as the flair 10 we need, given that Hook hasn't played much at 10.

It would however be seen as the biggest selection shock ever, basically if would be a Prem player jumping straight passed the Regional set up into WC squad.

Donacha Ryan played in the six nations in 2010 so I don't know if I'd go along with that and I also wouldn't agree that he's a "real probable" either. His advantage is he covers the backrow but Deccie could just as easily take MOD, Touhy or McLaughlin. McFadden in fairness has gone from a rank outsider to, while not a "real probable" to certainly possible. I still say he's played in the six nations and therefore not as much as a bolter as Jones and Murray but, to be fair, a year ago the chances of him going to NZ were very unlikely. I doubt McFadden is going to go though. Too few spots on that plane.

I'm not sure that there will be any bolters for England - it's not in MJ's DNA.

Manu probably if you twisted my arm.

But really they have only just begun to build a new side. For the next 6Ns - that would be an entirely different question...

ASBO has pinched Denton, who probably would have been my pick!

I was tempted to pick Cairns as centre cover but for me the player I think who could be worth punt for Scotland is Jim Thompson.

Thompson is a Natural 7s player with an eye for the Gap, a great offload and for a little guy pretty ferocious in the contact both offensively and defensively. He has currently been playing on the wing, but his natural position is Full Back although the full back slot is hallowed ground at Edinburgh thanks to Chris Patterson and to be honest Mossy 100% justified his inclusion for the RWC by some superb performances in the 6N as both a fantastic tackling fullback and an occasional 1st receiver.

So I would argue to have Thompson on the wing in place of Danielli or Walker either as an Impact sub or starting the game. He brings a lot more to the table than simple brute strength, he is an elusive runner and brigns all of this 7s skills to the game too.

Radge, I don't think that JT is in the provisional squad tho? So unless there are injuries ...

Exactly, It's a massive disapointment for me. Still Scotland's loss is Edinburgh's gain. Also I did not know that picks could only be from the provisional squad.....

Just imagine Wilko, Flood an Hodgson all get injured in the world cup warm ups!

Not to hard to do is it. (hmm)

Therefore would Goode or Cips stand a chance?

Both have experiance at the top level both international and super 15 be it good or bad.

By Goode I mean the pie eater Andy Goode.

duplicate. Can't remember how to delete posts.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Knoyle will go whilst Phillips won't. Scott Williams another potential bolted from Wales.

Knoyle wouldn't be considered a bolter as he is named in the 45 man squad and been involved in previous squads.

Phillips exclusion (if happened) would be seen as a huge shock though IMO.

Don't think Morgan will go but he had storming game in the U20s game on weekend and if continues his form throughout the tournament then he may be seen as the flair 10 we need, given that Hook hasn't played much at 10.

It would however be seen as the biggest selection shock ever, basically if would be a Prem player jumping straight passed the Regional set up into WC squad.

If you are gong to he that blydi picky look into your crystal ball and tell ne who will be injured in the warm ups as otherwise there will be no bolters for anyone.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Just imagine Wilko, Flood an Hodgson all get injured in the world cup warm ups!

Not to hard to do is it. (hmm)

Therefore would Goode or Cips stand a chance?

Both have experiance at the top level both international and super 15 be it good or bad.

I think that it would be a cold day some time after hell froze over that MJ even considered picking Cips for the '11 RWC.

i dont think there are any "bolters" for wales, matthew morgan at his age hasnt got a chance, Scott Williams potentially, but then he is in the 45 man squad,
otherwise iestyn Thomas?? should be in the 45 squad but...

Why?

It would give the SH teams something to laugh about seeing Cips on the team sheet

welshy,

I agree really, have listed ones who I think might get it but really can't see him picking anyone that isn't already in the 45 man prov squad unless forced to do so by injuries.

OK, who foresaw Richard Webster bolting into the '87 WC?

What about Tom Carter of the Tahs or Pat McCabe of the Brumbies for an outside shot of adding some solidity to the Wallaby backline?

Trinder is a good shout for an England bolter. Could be Tuilagi shining in the Churchill Cup, but it's his own fault that it isn't.

Alex Goode is the name on everyone's lips. Emergancy cover at 10 (definitely not a front line option) and playing well at 15. As is Mike Brown, who could sneak in to the squad having not really been in MJ's thoughts since THAT tour in 2008, if we took an out and out third ten in Hodgson, or a centre that covers 10 such as Flutey or even Twelvetrees (another potential bolter).

In the forwards, I wouldn't consider Stevens or Attwood bolters but I would take them to the World Cup from the current Saxons. I also wouldn't consider Crane a bolter, but he should make the training squad in my opinion, and if there is an injury to Easter he should definitely go. Tom Johnson remains the most likely "bolter" from the forwards in my opinion. Obviously impressed someone to get in the Saxons and has stepped up to the plate at A-team level. He could make the training squad and if he continues to step up he could get game-time over the summer and possibly end up on the plane, although I imagine we'd have to see an injury or two before it happens.

Can't see a bolter from outside the Saxons. That would be beyond ridiculous in my opinion.

Sin é wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Conor Murray and Felix Jones. Donnacha Ryan while not exactly a bolter will get the back row / second row cover slot.

Very, very lucky yesterday, BM

Hopefully see you in Thurles in a couple of weeks.


I don't think Conor Murray will be going (lack of gametime with both Sexton & Heislip for one thing). But I do think the other two will go (Ryan & Jones).

We were haunted Sine but we will take it. Full Back still 15 years after Sean Cullinane retired is still killing us. Did you see Davy going nuts on the line hilarious

If there is a bolter for England, it will be at centre in my opinion. I say this, just looking at the situation objectively; it is the one area of our team where we are just not competitive. Some people may say that I am being harsh, but would any of the top 9 nations swap their centres for ours? In most cases, no. We won the Six Nations despite our centres, not because of them, it will be exposed eventually. Looking at individual players:

Shontayne Hape has been injured since mid April when he required knee surgery. He hasn’t been in the best of form and there are general doubts about his position in the squad.

Rikki Flutey and Mike Tindall are becoming very injury prone. I’d put good money on one or even both of them picking up an injury in the warm ups to the World Cup. Flutey’s form has been patchy and he hasn’t played any international rugby this season. Tindall has put in some decent performances for England, but to my mind he is fading fast, his (little) pace is going and has been injured since March.

So who are the options? Banahan? Plenty people have doubts about his ability to play in the centres. It is a bit depressing that our three front line centres are over 30 or unproven and (Tindall aside) have so few caps between them. Successive England managers have failed to address this problem and have relied upon limited players like Mike Tindall or stop-gap players like Hape and Flutey.

To answer the question, I am going to say Anthony Allen or Manu Tuilagi. Anthony Allen has been the standout English centre all season and should have been involved in the Six nations. Tuilagi will play for England at some point, but his indiscretions may count against him this time.

Hape, Allen, Tindall and Tuilagi would be my 4 centres for the World Cup, with Hape and Tindall very much stop-gaps. Barritt and Twelvetrees would be pushing for Hape's place and Lowe and now Trinder would be pushing for Tindall's place after the World Cup.

It's 50/50 whether you would be able to call Allen or Tuilagi a bolter, they've certainly got fairly vocal support and a lot of people would put them in their squads. Surprised Allen isn't involved in the Saxons, unless he's already done enough to get in the Training Squad.