Ulster Rugby 2022/2023

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Thought it was time for an update on the thread so this is the new all things Ulster thread.

Jordi and/or Izzy on the bench? Treadwell, Timoney, O'Toole, and Hume starting? We seem to struggle against the Dragons on occasion and can't afford a loss, so go all out please.

Ulster: Rob Lyttle; Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Ben Moxham; Billy Burns, Nathan Doak; Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Tom O'Toole, Kieran Treadwell, Sam Carter, David McCann, Marcus Rea, Nick Timoney

Replacements: Brad Roberts, Eric O'Sullivan, Marty Moore, Cormac Izuchukwu, Matty Rea, David Shanahan, Ian Madigan, Stewart Moore.

No Vermuelen, O'Connor or Lowry? Strange, they weren't on any injury reports I saw

I assume there is some rotation and resting going on. The rest of the season gets pretty intense including the trip to SA, so I guess the coaches are giving those guys some extra time off.

Hopefully Carter will give way for Izzy to start gaining some match fitness. Together with Treadwell that would be a very dynamic second row pairing.

Lowry is particularly strange though, he was released by Ireland back to Ulster presumably so he could play and now isn't playing. Well either way lets hope its a positive result.

Frank Bradshaw Ryan confirmed officially on a 1 year deal, will be interesting to see what he can do

Another weekend of no Ulster game? I thought we had a few fixtures needed rearranged? I assumed we'd still be playing weekly during six nations to catch up.

Ulster didn't actually miss too many games, the Connacht one a few weeks ago was one of our rearranged games. The other is Leinster which is happening early in March. Theres been 12 rounds so far of URC, Ulster have 11 games done so only that Leinster game to catch up on for us.

Cooney is back and available for selection for this weekends game

Robert Baloucoune, Iain Henderson, James Hume and Nick Timoney have all been released by Ireland

Interesting that Lowry and Treadwell haven't been released. I suppose that as Lowry played the full 80mins that mightn't be such a surprise, but as Treadwell and Hume played roughly the same time I wonder if there is anything that can be read into it.

Great news that Cooney is back, although Doak hasn't been a bad understudy. It gives us some depth for the upcoming all important fixtures.

Cardiff or the Blues or whatever they are currently called have their internationals back and Navidi coming back after his significant shoulder injury. I'm hoping for an entertaining Ulster win.

Team v Cardiff- (15-9) Stewart Moore Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Ben Moxham, Billy Burns, Nathan Doak;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Iain Henderson (Capt.), Jordi Murphy, Marcus Rea, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Jack McGrath, Gareth Milasinovich, Sam Carter, Duane Vermeulen, John Cooney, Ian Madigan, Aaron Sexton.

neilthom7 wrote:Team v Cardiff- (15-9) Stewart Moore Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Ben Moxham, Billy Burns, Nathan Doak;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Iain Henderson (Capt.), Jordi Murphy, Marcus Rea, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Jack McGrath, Gareth Milasinovich, Sam Carter, Duane Vermeulen, John Cooney, Ian Madigan, Aaron Sexton.

Has Moore played full back before? I would have thought Lyttle would have been at 15, as he did very well (apart from the comedy miskick) in truly dreadful conditions at the Dragons. Perhaps looking to widen the pool of potential 15s with the prospect of Lowry moving to 10, and limited confidence in the health Addison (unfortunately)?

Great to see Jordi back starting, that is a quality back row and with a World Cup winner coming off the bench as well. Also great to see John C on the bench. I would have no great fears with Doak starting the big games now, but Cooney just has that extra experience. We must be targeting the full 5 points in this one.

He's never played there for Ulster before but I assume he is not a complete novice to the position otherwise surely they would just have played Madigan instead

Is Lyttle injured? I can't find any info on those out with injuries on the Ulster website.

If he is they haven't announced it so no idea why he isn't there, ciould be something minor, could even be covid and has to isolate, who knows

Well that was a joy to watch. Last try should have stood in my opinion, but not going to quibble.
A tonne of positives there in terms of squad depth and development of home grown stars.

Have to say though, just wasn't Cardiff's night. Even when they did shine at times, they couldn't manage to make it count.

The safety of the score line did allow Ulster some freedom to cut loose which was lovely to see.

Was a great game to watch, Moore was excellent at fullback looked very natural there. Big Rob was outstanding. Jordi Murphy got through a lot of work for his first game back too, all in all very positive

It was a good game with lots of positives, particularly good to see Reid and Stewart go well off the bench. The scrum looked better with the replacements on, but perhaps that was because ha replaced their front row as well.

Being hyper critical things looked a little loose in defence at times, Ratti shouldn't have been able to score from so far out, he should have been brought to ground and Cardiff made to work a bit more for the score, and the half time score certainly flattered us. Cardiff made so many mistakes in our 22 it was unbelievable. Their lack of game time certainly showed.

Moore looked great in attack but I don't feel he, or the back 3 were really tested much in defence.

neilthom7 wrote:Was a great game to watch, Moore was excellent at fullback looked very natural there.  Big Rob was outstanding.  Jordi Murphy got through a lot of work for his first game back too, all in all very positive

Think fullback is Moore's future position? I only saw highlights but he heavily involved. He is a nice balanced runner and has a good kicking game but not the biggest for center.

I suspect it is something they are looking at with the return of Addison shortly. Although Addison has been playing mostly full-back for us, he may be seen as higher in the pecking order at centre if McCloskey or Hume are out.

That said, Addison is coming 30, and so it could just be long term strategy to make sure we have home grown who can cater for all positions in another few years.

Would be really great to see a homegrown ten come through.
In 2/3/4 years with Cooney, Burns and Addison away and perhaps Marshall and Gilroy finished too we could have a fully homegrown backs setup like:

9 Doak
10 Lowry
11 Stockdale
12 Hume
13 McCloskey
14 Ballacoune
15 Moore/Lyttle

Ben Moxham
Aaron Sexton
Ethan McIlroy
Angus Curtis
Posthelwaite

G'Day all, I hope you're all very, very hyped up about the big day on Saturday. Much Guinness shall be swallowed with the Irish game a fine warm up to the main event in the evening.

Re: The Cardiff game, it was, as has been said, a real joy to watch but with Cardiff not really firing many shots it turned out to be a good, hard hitting warm up to Saturday's game.

P.S. I've watched that final try so many times and I'm still stuck on the fence. It did look like the hand motion was either very, very flat or marginally forward IMO although perhaps I'm trying to be hyper-critical. However, Moore received a late, no arms shoulder charge just before the questionable pass that should have resulted in a penalty. However, the move was simply a thing of beauty and although it ended without reward it was a fine reminder to Leinster of what they can expect.

The problem with these judgement calls is if the player who passes gets immediately hit, the pass is much more likely to be called forward than if the player continues to run.

That same pass with both players continuing to run shoulder to shoulder is not getting called as forward. The momentum of the ball carriers running forward means a ball being passed laterally is also technically going forward.

If the player who released the ball is immediately halted, obviously the ball will appear to go forward from his position.

The thing is I do think that both the Ref and the TMO got things wrong.

The ref declared that the ball had been passed before the line in which the player caught the ball, something that, as you've pointed out Clive, is irrelevant. If the hand movement is backwards then it's not a forward pass.
The TMO said (and I paraphrase) 'Look at the hands Hollie, the direction of the hands is back therefore it's not a forward pass'. This is of course correct as long as the hand direction is indeed backwards. IMO the hand direction was forward, if only by the tiniest of fractions.

So for me, the TMO got it wrong and the ref used the wrong reasoning to ultimately reach the correct decision.

You may indeed be right.

Here's a question - would you prefer those passes were given the benefit of the doubt in every case? Even if sometimes it went against Ulster?

Or are you happy that those calls get looked at on TMO?

For me, if it's close enough cause debate, it should be given. Obviously, if it's obvious, it shouldn't.

I wonder if in fact, the referees should be forced to ask the question 'Is it clear and obvious that it's forward?'. Similarly with grounding of a try under a pile of players - I'd like referees to be forced to ask 'Is their proof that it's held up?' Rather than 'Can we see that it's clearly grounded?'

I'm not sure why referees are in one game allowed to ask to see clear proof, but in another game allowed to give the benefit of the doubt.

There's an inconsistency regarding those calls and how they are treated. I've seen tries awarded for blatant forward passes yet Ulster's 'try of the season' gets chalked off despite the TMO vociferously awarding it so I'd much prefer tight calls to involve the TMO.
In this instance the game was already won so is it in the ref's mind that because of the scale of the win it's not really worth bothering too much? With points difference sometimes becoming a deciding factor in league placings and therefore, possibly play-off places, that try being chalked off could come back to bite.

I don't care if it's a champagne rugby try by a side at the right end of a heavy beating or a match winning, last second attempt in a final. all try attempts should receive the same level of investigation even if it means that sometimes that investigation doesn't go in your favour. TMO involvement all the way for me but using the same standard for all try attempts.

Clive, Pete, a very interesting debate.  On the initial point I think the try should have been given as for me the hands did go backward (if not by very much I agree).  On the issue of the question asked by the referee I think the current situation should remain.  It isn't ideal, but the final arbiter must always be the referee on the pitch, in my opinion, so they can give the benefit of the doubt or otherwise however they see fit.  I don't believe the ultimate decision can be made by the TMO, all they can do is clarify or advise the ref.

In this case the ref seemed to take the view that the pass was forward and so looking for clear evidence that it wasn't (i.e.it was backward).  And I would have to agree that the TMO got it wrong as it is not "clear and evident" that the decision should be overturned.

There will always be mistakes and the TMO is there to ensure that the clear and obvious ones are corrected.  In this instance it is neither clear nor obvious and so I just need to accept it.

It will all even out in the end though.

Swings and roundabouts indeed.
With all the calls for refereeing consistency throughout world rugby it's a difficult thing to achieve with various Law interpretations being applied by various refs. We all know certain refs let certain things go in order to achieve a flowing game while others enjoy the sound of their whistle far too much IMO.

I agree
It will all even out in the end though.
But the Welsh will always be livid.

We love a complex game where the officials are constantly assessing which infringements are having a material affect, and players are constantly testing to see what they can get away with. I don't think we are ever going to be totally agreed on exactly how a game should be refereed. Just look at how many times someone is called "the best referee in the world" only to have an avalanche of opposing views.

Give me the grace to accept referees decisions, it's a job I could never do.

(15-9) Mike Lowry, Robert Baloucoune, Stewart Moore, Stuart McCloskey, Craig Gilroy, Billy Burns, Nathan Doak;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor (Capt.), Sam Carter, Marcus Rea, Nick Timoney, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Eric O’Sullivan, Gareth Milasinovich, Mick Kearney, Jordi Murphy, John Cooney, Ian Madigan, Ben Moxham.

A strong team, but the Leinster 23 doesn't look too shabby either

(15 - 9) Jimmy O'Brien, Adam Byrne, Rory O'Loughlin, Jamie Osborne, Tommy O'Brien, Ross Byrne, Luke McGrath

(1 -8) Ed Byrne, James Tracey, Michael Ala'alatoa, Ross Molony, Joe McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Scott Penny, Max Deegan

Replacements Sean Cronin, Peter Dooley, Thomas Clarkson, Devin Toner, Dan Leavy, Nick McCarthy, David Hawkshaw, Martin Molony

I think it will be a tight game, but hopefully home advantage will tell.

Any views on the new recruit Flannery?

Madigan hasn't made a huge impression playing, but it appears he is doing a decent job in coaching/mentoring the youngsters. Is he going to drop out of contention? Is Lowry being viewed as a full back? Any news from "people that know"?

Unclear wrote:Any views on the new recruit Flannery?

Madigan hasn't made a huge impression playing, but it appears he is doing a decent job in coaching/mentoring the youngsters.  Is he going to drop out of contention?  Is Lowry being viewed as a full back?  Any news from "people that know"?

Flannery is a very good player. He was fullback for the ireland U20s grand slam in 2019. Harry Byrne and Ben Healy were also in that side. He played out half a few times in that tournament and looked better than Ben Healy in getting the backline moving.


He likes to play flat on the gainline and is a running threat. The one area where Crowley and Healy are ahead is kicking. It's not that Flannery is bad but Crowley and Healy are very good. But he looks a solid kicker.


He should suit Ulsters attacking style of play. Smart lad too having scored some of the highest results in the country when leaving school.

Sounds good. And if all goes well, he could have a good future partnership with Nathan Doak who can happily take the kicking duties off him.

I'd have preferred we uncovered a local ten to come through, but Irish is Irish I guess.
Probably a smart move by the young lad given the strength at 10 in other provinces.

Billy Burns is younger than I thought though. Only 27 - I don't know why but I seen him as older. Will Burns see out his career here, or might he skip on once deciding any aspirations of Ireland selection are perhaps done and dusted.

Flannery is a class act.
Possibly has a higher ceiling than Healy, or Crowley.

However the downside is he has had a bad injury.

If he can get back to his best, this just could be a great signing.

Academy has really been thinned out - down to 9 players.
That includes Postlewaite who has a guaranteed 4 year contract.

So expecting a lot of new players to be added this summer.
By and large the pick of the crop are in the forwards.
No 10s to get excited about which makes the Flannery signing a good piece of business

Thanks guys. The Flannery move sounds like a good thing for both sides, I think we need some real competition for the 10 spot to drive up standards and consistency. If we are to compete successfully for trophies over the years the least we need is a 10 playing at Burns's highest standard all the time (I feel Billy's form fluctuates wildly).

Interesting about the academy, is some of this financially driven? We do need to get a production line going for forwards, to complement the various young backs we have. It is noticeable how many more Ulster forwards there this year in the U20s, but that appears very much a snapshot rather than a trend.

The Flannery move looks a good move for him. Madigan is a poor starting outhlaf, but a great flyhalf to have on the bench. When Burns is injured/rested/international duty I don't see Madigan moving up to start games, he will remain on the bench, which will mean Flannery or Lowry will start those games. So will get more opportunity at Ulster as 2nd/3rd choice starting flyhalf or 3rd/4th choice bench outhalf.

Kingshu wrote:The Flannery move looks a good move for him. Madigan is a poor starting outhlaf, but a great flyhalf to have on the bench. When Burns is injured/rested/international duty I don't see Madigan moving up to start games, he will remain on the bench, which will mean Flannery or Lowry will start those games. So will get more opportunity at Ulster as 2nd/3rd choice starting flyhalf or 3rd/4th choice bench outhalf.

I hope Lowry and Flannery are both targeting something better than 2nd/3rd choice ... Whether they get there or not will be interesting and hopefully entertaining to see.

Methody win the schools cup final. Good performances by their fullback McFarland and the Campbell Lock Hopes.

Ulster set off for South Africa today, so I assume the guys who were with Ireland yesterday wont be with them.

Saw a photo of Hume with the Triple Crown, and then boarding the plane. Obviously he wasn't playing, but if he could make it back up, I see no reason why those playing couldn't.

Marshall and O’Toole on the plane to SA.
All the Irish squad players back except Baloucoune.
Carter not travelling as he has Covid.
McGrath not there again.
Could this be like Ferris, came back, gave it a go and it isn’t going to work out.
Hope I’m wrong

Any idea why Baloucoune didn't travel? Wonderful to see Luke Marshall back again, I really hope he can stay injury free this time.

(1-8) Eric O’Sullivan, Rob Herring, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor (Capt.), Kieran Treadwell, Greg Jones, Marcus Rea, Duane Vermeulen.

(15-9) Mike Lowry, Craig Gilroy, Stewart Moore, Stuart McCloskey, Rob Lyttle, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Callum Reid, Gareth Milasinovich, Mick Kearney, Jordi Murphy, David Shanahan, Luke Marshall, Ethan McIlroy.

And the the backs are :

(15-9) Mike Lowry, Craig Gilroy, Stewart Moore, Stuart McCloskey, Rob Lyttle, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

A pretty strong team, great to see Luke Marshall getting back into the match day squad. Pretty disappointed not to see Hume and Timoney featuring as they weren't exactly stretched by international game time, but I'd imagine there are plans in place to manage game time as the intensity ramps up at the deciding end of the season.

Oops, didn't realise I hadn't included the backs lol

Shea O’Brien of of Armagh RFC has been given a development contract next year and has been added to the European Rugby squad for the knock out stages

geoff999rugby wrote:Shea O’Brien of of Armagh RFC has been given a development contract next year and has been added to the European Rugby squad for the knock out stages

Jumping to conclusions again, does this mean Addison is not expected back this season? O'Shea sounds a good prospect so let's hope he prospers.

I’ve heard from his physio team that he will be back early to mid April

Thanks Geoff, much better late than never.