Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

That's not a high tackle. Heyes initial contact is the chest. If you're going to review it, review it properly. It's a legal tackle.

How did the assistant miss that the LI player knocks the ball out of JVP's hands and into touch before the Joseph break. It was right in front of him FFS. Lineout Tigers.

Anyway, Tigers blow what should have been a straightforward win and only get 4 instead of 5 points. LI manage to snatch 2 league points with a TBP at the death. Probably a fair result as LI were the better side in the first half but didn't really show up in the second. Hassell-Collins is looking like a really classy player, shame Parton went off.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yup that's got to be a penalty...

Crowd has it right chanting cheats. Officials have bottled it massively at the death. The AR in particular should be lucky to escape the ground without an ear bashing.

Think it was out myself. Got to applaud Afoa for that scrum while injured...

Need to see a slow mo of it...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was out myself. Got to applaud Afoa for that scrum while injured...

The scrum that went back and wheeled. Should have been a pen even without Uren illegally taking it out.

Feeling more than a little robbed.

I'm still yet to see a replay of that scrum due to everything kicking off. Just a poor end to a match, not a good look for the Premiership.

In hindsight there's an argument Tigers could have gone for posts and taken the draw. 2 points in the table could be vital for Champions Cup qualification. That 8th place in the table will be very tight.

In the heat of the moment with the scrum on top I'd probably have been annoyed by the lack of ambition by going for posts though so just playing devils advocate!

it's a pen all day. Plus repeated infringements on the goal line.

With our scrum shoving them all over the place and a very near miss just moment before then we had to go for the jugular. The problem is when you do that you are always putting your trust in the officials and the officials just looked like they wanted to get out of there after the Lam and Borthwick altercation.

Tigers just made too many errors ball in hand. I was annoyed that no replays of the final scrum were shown and instead we got extended time of Lam being smug and trying to blame Tigers for the mess within his own organisation.

Borthwick will like a lot of what he saw, there's definite signs of improvement and we play Wasps next week who are a little like a poor man's Bristol this season so building towards that game he'll have a game plan that needs tweaking rather than re-writing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was out myself. Got to applaud Afoa for that scrum while injured...

The scrum that went back and wheeled. Should have been a pen even without Uren illegally taking it out.

Feeling more than a little robbed.

Yeah the scrum where Leicester were under pressure going backwards and failed to control the ball.

Stirring comeback from Wasps - 10-33 down at HT, 39-36 winners after a last minute try, including a hat-trick for Willis.

Huge win for them.

Irish have become masters at losing matches when the clock is in the red - Quins, Glaws and Wasps - all games they would have won with a bit of game management.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was out myself. Got to applaud Afoa for that scrum while injured...

Got to applaud Pat Lam for playing it with a straight face.

I'll pick my words carefully because I don't want to wind anybody up. I think Tigers may have had a case for the last scrum and Bristol definitely didn't cover themselves in glory before it. However, I also think that Heyes was driving at almost a right angle in one of the scrums that they won a penalty for, before all that happened.

Scrums are such a lottery I think Tigers would have been better off letting Bristol play their games and launched something against a backline that was down two men.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was out myself. Got to applaud Afoa for that scrum while injured...

The scrum that went back and wheeled. Should have been a pen even without Uren illegally taking it out.

Feeling more than a little robbed.

Yeah the scrum where Leicester were under pressure going backwards and failed to control the ball.

With their loosehead standing up because he could hold the pressure causing the scrum to wheel on Afoa who was holding the pressure? Ball was on Weise's foot. 

Agree with Cumbrian the scrum can be a lottery. Bristol got away with an awful lot of warnings. They were on a warning before the first scrum because of lineout infringements. Bristol down to 14 I had my doubts about calling for another scrum knowing that the tighthead option was a rested Afoa. It was probably the time to try the pick and go if we didn't fancy the lineout.

As annoyed as we can be at the finale we have away soft tries and should have scored more with the pressure we put on throughout the game. I'm fairly certain Leicestershire with be supporting anyone bar Bristol in the playoffs after the antics and the post match interview from Liar.

Cumbrian wrote:I'll pick my words carefully because I don't want to wind anybody up. I think Tigers may have had a case for the last scrum and Bristol definitely didn't cover themselves in glory before it. However, I also think that Heyes was  driving at almost a right angle in one of the scrums that they won a penalty for, before all that happened.

Scrums are such a lottery  I think Tigers would have been better off letting  Bristol play their games and launched something against a backline that was down two men.

Absolutely. This is what I was thinking at the time. With uncontested scrums the pack is locked in and the ball would come out clean. In theory, should be a piece of cake.

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I'll pick my words carefully because I don't want to wind anybody up. I think Tigers may have had a case for the last scrum and Bristol definitely didn't cover themselves in glory before it. However, I also think that Heyes was  driving at almost a right angle in one of the scrums that they won a penalty for, before all that happened.

Scrums are such a lottery  I think Tigers would have been better off letting  Bristol play their games and launched something against a backline that was down two men.

Absolutely.  This is what I was thinking at the time.  With uncontested scrums the pack is locked in and the ball would come out clean.  In theory, should be a piece of cake.  

Wasn't Tigers choice over the uncontested. It was Bristol's. If Afoa is fit then he can go back on. Lam wouldn't let Afoa back on the pitch initially because he wanted the uncontested scrums but with fourteen men on, after Tempest informed him of the laws he floundered and tried to talk his way out of it with the bungling clown who's the team manager. When it came down to playing with 13 and uncontested suddenly Afoa was actually fine. Pathetic really.

Borthwick was clearly annoyed by it and the six minutes of bleating from the Bristol bench whilst they fannied about. I'd have certainly preferred the 13 man uncontested option. Weise pick from the base and offload to a marauding Nadolo, if that doesn't work then the wrap around forwards drives would be towards the posts where it's hard to defend.

Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Leicester were "Out-Leicestered!"

I'm sure Munster fans would have enjoyed that one

doctor_grey wrote:Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Tempest pointed out that you can change the card from tactical to injury it you want so it was entirely down to Bristol. Lam and his pet clown on the side lines then dithered and tried to decide what they wanted to risk more. The player protection angle Lam is trying to spin being politician level BS.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Tempest pointed out that you can change the card from tactical to injury it you want so it was entirely down to Bristol. Lam and his pet clown on the side lines then dithered and tried to decide what they wanted to risk more. The player protection angle Lam is trying to spin being politician level BS.

I guess the wild card here was that no one expected Bristol would hold off the Leicester pack when Afoa came back on.  Especially Genge.  I don't recall if that was a good put-in by Leicester or not because the ball originally came by the flankers feet as opposed to straight to the number 8.

The good thing in this i suppose is the law works. Brought in to ensure that teams are meant to have cover and can scrummage for the whole game. If they can't due to injury they are penalised. I don't think Lam knew the rules and to me was attempting to game the system.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Tempest pointed out that you can change the card from tactical to injury it you want so it was entirely down to Bristol. Lam and his pet clown on the side lines then dithered and tried to decide what they wanted to risk more. The player protection angle Lam is trying to spin being politician level BS.

I guess the wild card here was that no one expected Bristol would hold off the Leicester pack when Afoa came back on.  Especially Genge.  I don't recall if that was a good put-in by Leicester or not because the ball originally came by the flankers feet as opposed to straight to the number 8.  

It wasn't great and for me for a scrum half as experienced as Wigglesworth he shouldn't have put it in when he did.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Tempest pointed out that you can change the card from tactical to injury it you want so it was entirely down to Bristol. Lam and his pet clown on the side lines then dithered and tried to decide what they wanted to risk more. The player protection angle Lam is trying to spin being politician level BS.

I guess the wild card here was that no one expected Bristol would hold off the Leicester pack when Afoa came back on.  Especially Genge.  I don't recall if that was a good put-in by Leicester or not because the ball originally came by the flankers feet as opposed to straight to the number 8.  

I had a niggling doubt. Borthwick clearly wanted to play against 13 men based on the touchline debate, I saw a clip of that this morning which sadly missed off the scrum and fisticuffs. A rested Afoa Vs Genge who had played 80 mins was not going to be a straightforward contest.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Tempest pointed out that you can change the card from tactical to injury it you want so it was entirely down to Bristol. Lam and his pet clown on the side lines then dithered and tried to decide what they wanted to risk more. The player protection angle Lam is trying to spin being politician level BS.

I guess the wild card here was that no one expected Bristol would hold off the Leicester pack when Afoa came back on.  Especially Genge.  I don't recall if that was a good put-in by Leicester or not because the ball originally came by the flankers feet as opposed to straight to the number 8.  

I had a niggling doubt. Borthwick clearly wanted to play against 13 men based on the touchline debate, I saw a clip of that this morning which sadly missed off the scrum and fisticuffs. A rested Afoa Vs Genge who had played 80 mins was not going to be a straightforward contest.

I just went back and watched the mess again and it was still a bit hard to understand Borthwick. When he was talking to Tempest the commentators decided they had remained mute long enough and started talking over the referee's conversations. Borthwick was wearing a mask as well. That said, based on what I believe I heard, he appeared to me to be happy with the injury status. I would be too.

The fight was actually funny. Right after the ball was kicked out after the scrum and the final whistle blown, Afoa starts to celebrate and bumped into Wigglesworth. I have no idea if that was intentional or not. Wiggly took offense and tried to tackle Afoa. And then the little melee started.

It looked like Wigglesworth ended up on top of Afoa swinging punches. Nathan Hughes and Ellis Genge will probably be looked at as well. Proper mess there, not sure if the backs got involved but all the forwards piled in quite happily.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Actually I think it was no one's choice.  It all depended which story Pat Lam was telling.  By the book, since Afoa was not injured which was clearly written down as a tactical sub, then he had to come on.  Once Tempest, who must have been laughing under his breath, told Lam that he was more or less screwing himself with his story about Afoa being injured, did he change his story.  I am sure Tempest  would have been fine with Lam screwing his team over by fibbing about the injury.

Tempest pointed out that you can change the card from tactical to injury it you want so it was entirely down to Bristol. Lam and his pet clown on the side lines then dithered and tried to decide what they wanted to risk more. The player protection angle Lam is trying to spin being politician level BS.

I guess the wild card here was that no one expected Bristol would hold off the Leicester pack when Afoa came back on.  Especially Genge.  I don't recall if that was a good put-in by Leicester or not because the ball originally came by the flankers feet as opposed to straight to the number 8.  

I had a niggling doubt. Borthwick clearly wanted to play against 13 men based on the touchline debate, I saw a clip of that this morning which sadly missed off the scrum and fisticuffs. A rested Afoa Vs Genge who had played 80 mins was not going to be a straightforward contest.

I just went back and watched the mess again and it was still a bit hard to understand Borthwick.  When he was talking to Tempest the commentators decided they had remained mute long enough and started talking over the referee's conversations.  Borthwick was wearing a mask as well.  That said, based on what I believe I heard, he appeared to me to be happy with the injury status.  I would be too.  

The fight was actually funny.  Right after the ball was kicked out after the scrum and the final whistle blown, Afoa starts to celebrate and bumped into Wigglesworth.  I have no idea if that was intentional or not.  Wiggly took offense and tried to tackle Afoa.   And then the little melee started.    

Ha. Definitely intentional. Borthwick was very peeved. Called him a liar. And as I've said above completely agree with him!

Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

Saints side for Chiefs at the Gardens this afternoon:

15 Tommy Freeman
14 Ollie Sleightholme
13 Matt Proctor
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Taqele Naiyaravoro
10 Dan Biggar
9 Tom James

1 Alex Waller (co-capt)
2 Sam Matavesi
3 Ehren Painter
4 David Ribbans
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Courtney Lawes
7 Lewis Ludlam (co-capt)
8 Tom Wood

Replacements:
16 Mike Haywood
17 Emmanuel Iyogun
18 Paul Hill
19 Alex Moon
20 Alex Coles
21 Alex Mitchell
22 James Grayson
23 Fraser Dingwall

Not available due to injury:
Owen Franks (foot), George Furbank (calf), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (achilles), Teimana Harrison (calf), and Nick Isiekwe (pectoral).

Chiefs:

15Hogg
14Cordero
13Slade
12Whitten
11O'Flaherty

10Simmonds
9Maunder

1Moon
2Cowan-Dickie
3Williams
4J Gray
5Hill
6Skinner
7Kirsten
8Simmonds

Substitutes

16Yeandle
17Hepburn
18Street
19Lonsdale
20Capstick
21Townsend
22Skinner
23Devoto

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

Very unlike you to see Tigers side in every incident Sam!

Saints 12-0 up but down to 14 men after Ribbans tries to take LCD's head off. Saints look up for it with the fans back in the stadium.

Good end to end game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

I disagree on both of your points in the first paragraph. Bristol are clearly winning the scrum and their pack are still bound correctly, but Genge’s side has started to fold in. The lock follows him and steps over the ball. That’s the point where it goes out of the scrum - and that’s what Uren reacts to. The flanker then steps round it and makes it look like it’s in, but you can’t take a ball back into the scrum once it’s come out.

While the result didn’t go Tigers’ way, they did show how to take the fight to Bristol, something I am sure the other semi finalists will be watching with interest. The resultant fight was pretty unedifying, and I imagine there will be some sanction for it. Lam and Borthwick could also both be looking at a slap on the wrist for their behaviour over the return of Afoa.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

I disagree on both of your points in the first paragraph. Bristol are clearly winning the scrum and their pack are still bound correctly, but Genge’s side has started to fold in. The lock follows him and steps over the ball. That’s the point where it goes out of the scrum - and that’s what Uren reacts to. The flanker then steps round it and makes it look like it’s in, but you can’t take a ball back into the scrum once it’s come out.

While the result didn’t go Tigers’ way, they did show how to take the fight to Bristol, something I am sure the other semi finalists will be watching with interest. The resultant fight was pretty unedifying, and I imagine there will be some sanction for it. Lam and Borthwick could also both be looking at a slap on the wrist for their behaviour over the return of Afoa.

Just seen it, perfectly fine. As you said, Genge was taking a bit of a battering and the ball popped out at the side before the flanker tries to drag it back in. All options available end with Bristol taking the game.

Should have known not to trust a Tigers fan on these matters!

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

I disagree on both of your points in the first paragraph. Bristol are clearly winning the scrum and their pack are still bound correctly, but Genge’s side has started to fold in. The lock follows him and steps over the ball. That’s the point where it goes out of the scrum - and that’s what Uren reacts to. The flanker then steps round it and makes it look like it’s in, but you can’t take a ball back into the scrum once it’s come out.

While the result didn’t go Tigers’ way, they did show how to take the fight to Bristol, something I am sure the other semi finalists will be watching with interest. The resultant fight was pretty unedifying, and I imagine there will be some sanction for it. Lam and Borthwick could also both be looking at a slap on the wrist for their behaviour over the return of Afoa.

You're allowed your opinion. For me it's still under the body of Weise, I'm not going to argue the point as Dayglo mentioned on BT Sport this afternoon he thought it was still in and I'm loathe to agree with him on principal.

For me the looseheads on both sides are struggling which is why the scrum twists as it does. 

I'm sure many of the other DORs will have looked at Martin man marked Hughes out the game and how that really took the Bears pack out of the game in a carrying sense. No Hughes big carry no pack momentum to play with. None of Bristol's tries came from phase play. 1 kick return, 1 quick tap, 1 first phase move from a lineout and an intercept. Lam wasn't happy with the display in his mid game interview as they were reliant on individuals as opposed to team play. Sale and Chiefs will be confident of recreating that but also quashing the individual moments also.

Nah, Genge is struggling. It's certainly out...clear as day. Great spot by the scrum half but poor from Tigers really.

The jump into Wigglesworth was OTT.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nah, Genge is struggling. It's certainly out...clear as day. Great spot by the scrum half but poor from Tigers really.

The jump into Wigglesworth was OTT.

Wiggly should have pounced on the ball, or at least boxed the Bristol 9 out. Can't let the other guy lay a finger on the ball and should have assumed the worst case whether out or not.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

Nah. Its out of the side. Poor control.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

Nah. Its out of the side. Poor control.

The ball isn't moving and the 8s foot is touching it when Uren picks it up. Terrible officiating by an AR who bottles it and a TMO who only has a job because he was a former player.

Agree in Wigglesworth point he should never have let Uren near the ball, really has to keep his body between man and ball that's scrum half basics.

Tom Youngs likely to be in trouble for his scathing assessment to Tempest after the final whistle where he tells him he wasn't "effing strong enough". That's a fair point what with Bristol on a team warning before the first scrum penalty and a yellow card only following four penalties later and no penalty try despite Tigers clearly heading for the line on more than one scrum penalty occasion. It's been a feature this season of Prem refs de-powering the scrum and following the Pro14 method of officiating in that department. Need a French ref for a dominant front row to be rewarded these days.

On a completely different note, and I don't like saying this, awesome from Saints yesterday. Get told by reporters pre game there's nothing to play for but in front of their fans they go all in and take Chiefs to the wire with 14 men for most of the game. Always something to play for when at home with your fans roaring you on. Unlucky to be pipped at the end. Expect Chiefs play off opponents to go hard at the breakdown now.

It was already out by that point Sam though. Fair for me but close enough to discuss! Never saw a chance at a pen try as it was going down too quickly.

It only gets near the 8 after the scrum has moved and the ball is then seen to be clearly out. The ball must 50/60cm outside the scrum...its totally clear.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just seen a replay of the scrum and the ball is definitely still in and if anything isn't moving. Probably should have been a reset as it's a real mess but Uren shouldn't be allowed to pull the ball out of that and kick it into touch though I can see why he went for it, he gambled and the AR froze.

Afoa actually starts the fight at then with some pretty crass celebration shoving Wigglesworth and shouting in his ear. Doesn't look like Wigglesworth does actually throw any punches but he does man handle Afoa to the floor and shove his head into the grass a bit. 

A lot of the Bristol subs come running into the melee. I would have thought that will lead to a fine and a slap on the wrist. Interesting that Dayglo and Monye are both unimpressed with Bristol's antics. Feels weird they are backing Tigers.

Nah. Its out of the side. Poor control.

On a completely different note, and I don't like saying this, awesome from Saints yesterday. Get told by reporters pre game there's nothing to play for but in front of their fans they go all in and take Chiefs to the wire with 14 men for most of the game. Always something to play for when at home with your fans roaring you on. Unlucky to be pipped at the end. Expect Chiefs play off opponents to go hard at the breakdown now.

Did Ludlum play well?

Ludlum played well but Lawes was exceptional. Saints didn't have the capacity to keep up the first half intensity after the break and stopped competing at the breakdown to concentrate on line speed which was ultimately what cost them the game. In the first half Lawes and Ludlum were a constant thorn in the side of Chiefs at the breakdown. Lawes really putting his hand up for the Lions selection, don't think I've seen him jackle the ball quite so much in a game before.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was already out by that point Sam though. Fair for me but close enough to discuss! Never saw a chance at a pen try as it was going down too quickly.

The earlier scrums that Bristol collapsed as soon as retreating should have resulted in a yellow card sooner in my opinion. Bristol had already had a team warning for penalties in the red zone, then gave away multiple scrum penalties in quick succession before the warning came, then the yellow came after the next scrum.

It's a more general point but I wish defending teams cynically killing the ball after giving away advantage was penalised more harshly. Very often around scrums, rucks and mauls you see sides purposefully infringe immediately after giving the advantage to prevent teams from having a 'free attack'. Scrum-halves or flankers disrupting the ball illegally after scrum advantages. Players diving onto the ball at rucks after giving an advantage for offside. Penalty advantages at mauls immediately followed by a ridiculously cynical side entry to prevent the ball reaching the scrum-half.

Most sides do it, I wish it was clamped down on as it's so cynical. If 2 or 3 penalty offences happen in quick succession in one play it should be officiated the same as 2 or 3 penalties in quick succession. A lot of scrum-halves are clever in that regard at scrums. Once the arm comes out with defending side collapsing they will go ridiculously offside to obstruct the opposition 9 or just kick the ball out from under the number 8s feet. If that happens in prime attacking positions with the attacking side having advantage it's basically the same as a player lying on the ball at the ruck because he knows quick ball will result in a try.

It's something which is within football already. The cynical fouls e.g. tripping someone running into space at the back line will pick up the yellow where the same trip when a player going back towards their own goal wouldn't. Given the amount of marginal decisions the refs in rugby make anyway probably easier for them. Personally I'd like to see a tally system on fouls tried. Clearly no all fouls are the same so it would need some thought for where on the pitch but just think it would take a layer out if it was say 8 fouls and you get an automatic yellow.

Agree that the ref in your game could have got the yellow out quicker though. I see Wayne Barnes has released the video on pen tries again too. Read too many times people writing they thought given the number of fouls should have meant the PT....again may mean its easier for the refs though.

Yeah the penalty try law interpretation they brought in a couple of years ago has helped things immensely. It's quite clear cut now unless you have a dominant scrum in which case the opposition take a couple of steps back and then drop it safe in the knowledge it's only a penalty and the refs want to get out of the situation quickly so don't want to give too much away.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/08/leicester-and-bristol-players-avoid-punishment-over-mass-weekend-brawl-steve-borthwick-rugby-union

No repercussions. I'm quite surprised by that and it's another question mark on what the citing officers look at, in terms of flying fists. Not sure if their role is limited to within game time as the big altercations came as Afoa would up Wigglesworth.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/worcester-warriors-v-gloucester-rugby-cancelled

Worcester vs Gloucester off. Fortunately for the Prem that shouldn't effect Champions Cup qualification, there's no relegation anyway and Worcester a way behind in 12th as is.

Gloucester could have gone to 48 points with a TBP win which would put them in 8th just behind Wasps on games won. If Bath take a single point from their game they'd have leapfrogged them into 8th on games wan anyway though. Whilst Falcons and LI have the chance to take a Champions Cup place as well.

6th to 11th in the table is very tight with only 6 points separating the teams.

From a Tigers perspective I'd really hope we are able to take enough away from the Ricoh to secure top 8 given Wasps are missing a number of key players. If Ford is missing again it's a huge blow to Tigers but even so we should be very near full strength that aside. The only other absentee I can think of is Cyle Brink who's an absolute unit to be missing but we are well covered in the back row now. I'm quietly optimistic for the final weekend of the regular season which is a nice improvement from the sense of creeping doom I've felt going into round 22 for the last few years.

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/08/leicester-and-bristol-players-avoid-punishment-over-mass-weekend-brawl-steve-borthwick-rugby-union

No repercussions. I'm quite surprised by that and it's another question mark on what the citing officers look at, in terms of flying fists. Not sure if their role is limited to within game time as the big altercations came as Afoa  would up Wigglesworth.

The Pat Lam and Steve Borthwick touchline thing might still come before the beak as that's not citing commission. Surprised no one got done for the melee at the end and Tom Youngs got away with dropping f bombs in his post match dressing down of sir. Fully expected Youngs to get a few weeks for that.

TIGERS XV:
[club appearances in brackets]

15 Zack Henry [25]

14 Freddie Steward [34]

13 Matt Scott [24]

12 Dan Kelly [19]

11 Nemani Nadolo [15]

10 Johnny McPhillips [21]

9 Jack Van Poortvliet [20]

1 Ellis Genge (c) [88]

2 Julián Montoya [5]

3 Dan Cole [263]

4 Harry Wells [123]

5 Cameron Henderson [16]

6 George Martin [16]

7 Hanro Liebenberg [35]

8 Jasper Wiese [19]

REPLACEMENTS:

16 Charlie Clare [33]

17 James Whitcombe [6]

18 Joe Heyes [71]

19 Tomás Lavanini [36]

20 Ollie Chessum [7]

21 Ben Youngs [263]

22 Matías Moroni [16]

23 Kini Murimurivalu [22]

Wasps: 15 Rob Miller, 14 Marcus Watson, 13 Malakai Fekitoa, 12 Michael Le Bourgeois, 11 Josh Bassett, 10 Jacob Umaga, 9 Dan Robson; 1 Simon McIntyre, 2 Tommy Taylor, 3 Kieran Brookes, 4 Will Rowlands, 5 James Gaskell, 6 Tom Willis, 7 Brad Shields (c), 8 Sione Vailanu

Replacements: 16 Gabriel Oghre, 17 Ben Harris, 18 Jeff Toomaga-Allen, 19 Tim Cardall, 20 Alfie Barbeary, 21 Ben Vellacott, 22 Jimmy Gopperth, 23 Juan de Jongh

Well Tigers have gone BIG in this one but I'm nervous about the lack of a fetcher in the backrow, I presume Reffell has a knock. Ford missing again is a blow. Wasps have limped to the end of the season with as many on the physio table as able to play but as shown last weekend are pretty dangerous when they start firing.

Newcastle Falcons team to face Harlequins (Saturday, 3pm, Twickenham Stoop, live on BT Sport Extra 3)

15 Joel Hodgson
14 Adam Radwan
13 George Wacokecoke
12 Luther Burrell
11 Mateo Carreras
10 Brett Connon
9 Louis Schreuder

1 Adam Brocklebank
2 George McGuigan
3 Trevor Davison
4 Greg Peterson
5 Sean Robinson
6 Will Welch
7 Mark Wilson (captain)
8 Callum Chick

Replacements
16 Jamie Blamire
17 Kyle Cooper
18 Rodney Ah You
19 Philip van der Walt
20 Carl Fearns
21 Michael Young
22 Pete Lucock
23 Alex Tait

Harlequins:
15 Tyrone Green,
14 Louis Lynagh,
13 Joe Marchant,
12 Ben Tapuai,
11 Aaron Morris,
10 Marcus Smith,
9 Danny Care;

1 Joe Marler,
2 Scott Baldwin,
3 Wilco Louw ,
4 Matt Symons,
5 Dino Lamb,
6 Tom Lawday,
7 Jack Kenningham,
8 Alex Dombrandt (captain).

Replacements: 16 Joe Gray, 17 Santiago Garcia Botta, 18 Will Collier, 19 Hugh Tizard, 20 James Chisholm, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Luke Northmore, 23 Cadan Murley.