Reflections on Carl Frampton's Career

Howdy chaps,

So I take it most boxing fans around here will have seen or at least heard about Carl Frampton's loss to Jamel Herring last night. Frampton was trying to be come the first Irishman (and one of a very select few from the United Kingdom overall) to win world titles in three weights, but was badly beaten and overmatched from the off against the WBO Super-Featherweight champion Herring, announcing his retirement immediately afterwards as he said he'd do beforehand if he lost.

First off, I have to say that Herring was pretty damn impressive. Amongst all the world titlists we have in the sport he's been a bit of a blind spot for me and I hadn't seen much of him until recently, but he pretty much beat the snot out of Frampton from the first bell. No idea what those pundits who said he couldn't fight on the inside beforehand were talking about - he didn't passively accept the clinches as some thought he would, and went with the uppercuts, body shots and muscling tactics in close which really overwhelmed Frampton. When the fight wasn't in close, Carl looked pretty poor technically and at a loss with how to deal with the height and reach disadvantage, getting caught square on a few times and throwing himself face-first into shots.

If that is to be the end of Frampton's career then it was a sad way to go out. During his run to a world title and peak years up until 2016, he was always a very classy and gifted boxer-puncher, who could beat guys in various ways - to see him reduced to a face-first can like that wasn't too enjoyable. Seems harsh to say, as he's a two-division champion with some cracking performances under his belt, but I think he's slightly underachieved in his career and never really got to grips with the acrimonious split from McGuigan and the loss to Santa Cruz in their rematch, which occurred quite close together. I thought the writing was on the wall when he lost to Warrington, because for me there's no way that Frampton at his best would ever have lost that fight to guy who isn't in his league in terms of ability.

With Froch bowing out at that time, I thought Frampton had established himself as the UK's best pound for pound by 2014/2015, and I thought he'd carry that kind of form on for a little while longer than he did. Very fine career by anyone's standards, but can't help but feel there's just a shade of 'what if?' about it.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, though. Thoughts?

I was never too impressed by Frampton, made harder work of fights than he should have done. His premier wins are Quigg and Santa Cruz neither of whom were anything special, don't feel he ever wanted any part of Rigondeaux.

I called it earlier on this year in my 5 who will, 5 who won't thread. Said he'd realise quickly that he was out of his depth against Herring and his corner would call a halt after 8 and he'd retire afterwards - it seems I got this prediction almost spot on. Herring was superb - he did exactly what he wanted to in the fight, and it was when he got the cut, it seemed to spur him on more. That second knockdown was a thing of vicious beauty. I think even the "old" Frampton would have found Jamel a handful.

Frampton was one of those fighters that I could never quite gel with. I didn't dislike him, and he was certainly good, but I didn't buy in to the hype that was being spouted about him and found him a bit up himself. Despite his abilities I found it difficult to be a fan of his. The second Santa Cruz fight dented his fighting spirit I reckon, and he wasn't really quite the same afterwards. Add to that the business with McGuigan turning sour, it's no surprise that he started to slip. As Chris said above - being beaten by Warrington was the beginning of the end for him.

I agree whole-heartedly with Soul that the Frampton camp wanted no part of Rigondeaux. I think that he would have been soundly beaten.

Whether Frampton under achieved or not, I can't say. But one thing I have observed is that McGuigan is a very litigious guy.   I mean to say, he would file a lawsuit at the shadow when shadow-boxing. I used to be like most people and think that he was a hero,well he's a really sore loser when a boxer leaves his stable and there's a whiff of the petty and petulant about him, in my books. So,yes, I agree with Mr Bounce.

I really didn't like the lack of credit (by the commentators) given to Herring-I too thought he was very impressive, nice to see a rangy tall fighter -I have been bingeing on Hit Man Hearns recently!

Well I can't disagree on the Rigondeaux point. I was saying at the time that I was disappointed with the attitudes of Frampton, Quigg and even Selby towards the possibility of taking Rigondeaux on. Normally when a fighter is being avoided, the guys stonewalling him at least try to be tactful about it. When it came to Rigondeaux I remember those UK lads didn't even try to conceal the fact that they weren't interested and / or didn't think they could beat him. I remember when we had Selby on the old v2 podcast and he said, "I'm in a tough division (Featherweight) and it'll get even tougher if Rigondeaux moves up - there's no beating him" along with a Boxing News interview with Frampton after he'd become world champion where he said something along the lines of, 'I'll fight anyone at Super-Bantam now, except Rigondeaux. I don't need him, I'll only fight him when I'm ready'. That last one's not an exact quote I'll stress again, but it sums up what Frampton said his attitude was to Rigondeaux c. 2014.

Anyway, back to the fights Frampton did have. I thought he showed great variation and adaptability in his wins against Martinez x 2, Parodi, Quigg and Santa Cruz but there was a decline in his performances and style similar to the one Groves suffered after getting clobbered by Froch. Both went from looking like nimble, quick boxers with a genuine knockout punch to more basic jack of all trades styles, whose power couldn't really move opponents like it once had and who relied more on huff and puff as they took more and more shots.

Anyway, just my take. Excellent career regardless of whether there could or should have been more. And for what it's worth I agree Herring should have got more credit from the commentators - fact is, Frampton was almost certainly never beating a guy like that at 130.

How would a fight with Barry Awad have played out?

Warren didn’t want to know just like he didn’t want Awad for Warrington

Remember how confident Galahad was about that fight?

Natural weight and size must be a factor in any career assessment.  Many fighters move up to higher weight / size categories because there is more money and maybe more competition.  Some dominant fighters in a lower weight category often become less dominant in a higher weight category and sometimes get flattened.  Getting flattened creates a lasting image that may overshadow an assessment of someones career.  Frampton went from bantamweight to lightweight.

Frampton height 5'5".  reach 62"
Herring... height 5'10"  reach 70"

No name Bertie wrote:Natural weight and size must be a factor in any career assessment.  Many fighters move up to higher weight / size categories because there is more money and maybe more competition.  Some dominant fighters in a lower weight category often become less dominant in a higher weight category and sometimes get flattened.  Getting flattened creates a lasting image that may overshadow an assessment of someones career.  Frampton went from bantamweight to lightweight.

Frampton height 5'5".  reach 62"
Herring... height 5'10"  reach 70"

No he went from super bantamweight to super featherweight, not the biggest jump. Worth considering he went after Herring because he was seen as a soft option.

Soul Requiem wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:Natural weight and size must be a factor in any career assessment.  Many fighters move up to higher weight / size categories because there is more money and maybe more competition.  Some dominant fighters in a lower weight category often become less dominant in a higher weight category and sometimes get flattened.  Getting flattened creates a lasting image that may overshadow an assessment of someones career.  Frampton went from bantamweight to lightweight.

Frampton height 5'5".  reach 62"
Herring... height 5'10"  reach 70"

No he went from super bantamweight to super featherweight, not the biggest jump. Worth considering he went after Herring because he was seen as a soft option.

Exactly this: Frampton's team saw Herring as the easiest way to getting their hands on a belt at a third weight and massively under-estimated their opponent. 122lbs to 130lbs is pretty much the same as going from middle to super-middle. Most decent middles can easily accommodate this as they get older as they grow into their frame. I imagine as Frampton got older, making 122 and then 126 was getting more and more difficult. He obviously thought "One last throw of the dice and we'll get that 3rd belt and retire". Didn't quite work out that way as Herring was way better than they thought.

I remember seeing Frampton on the Froch v Bute undercard.  We were in the pub around the corner a bit earlier and a guy who claimed to be close friends of the Frampton family was telling me that he was going to be huge.  It doesn't seem that long ago but I felt he was capable of a bit more.  The Quigg fight was frustrating as he could have made it a lot cleaner.  Should have been a 3rd with Cruz.  No fight with Rigo on his record.  Donaire was past it.  I felt he could have done more and his record is a bit patchy from his American debut onwards. Cruz was his best win but it was probably closer than the rematch.