Calls for an immediate inquest into the Welsh regions

by LordDowlais Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:33 am

First topic message reminder :

There is unrest in Wales by the looks of it, in the aftermath of a successful 6N the jungle drums are now beating and people want answers as to why the regions are not doing as well as people think they should be.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-face-difficult-times-20322120

How long can this keep going ?

Do others on here think the Welsh regions under perform ?

The outcome of this should be very interesting.

by Brendan Fri 25 Jun 2021, 11:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Cyril wrote:The new Pro (whatever) needs a proper cap that applies to all sides (and properly targets all union payments, especially Irish). It also needs administration outside of Dublin and somewhere else. Only then will you get proper buy in.

It will only work if each Union gives the same amount of money per team as the other Unions. Not to rehash it here but how much each team in the league spend on wages is not easily worked out. You would also have to determine what are accademy costs and what are squad wage costs.

Under Prem rules that is decided based on age, amount and number of first team appearances. From memory any player under 24, earning less than £50k a year, who plays no more than five first team games a season is classed as development. Might be wrong but it's something like that.

If only it were that simple. When it can't be determined if central contracts in Ireland are wages from the Provinces or who pays what wages of the 38 special players in Wales it might end up making the Sarries wage breach look like child's play.

If for example the SRU use the top home based Scottish players each year to promote Scottish Rugby and paid them 50k each would that be team wages via the backdoor or would it be Union wages

by Irish Londoner Mon 28 Jun 2021, 9:22 am

Cyril wrote:The new Pro (whatever) needs a proper cap that applies to all sides (and properly targets all union payments, especially Irish). It also needs administration outside of Dublin and somewhere else. Only then will you get proper buy in.

No problem with a salary cap, however in order to make teams competitive in Europe it would have be about the same as the French one.
The administration is in Dublin for tax reasons, not conspiracy ones. The same reason that when the "new" European cup was set up it was headquartered in Switzerland not France or the UK.

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 9:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yet it's odd that despite the Irish Provinces comfortably outperforming the Welsh Regions the Welsh national team has more success than the Irish one. So I think you then have to look at what the point of the Regions is. Are they to be successful in their own right or are they there to produce players for the national team?

It because the Irish provinces spend a lot of money on good quality NIQ players who actually boost the teams they play in, a luxury the national team does not have.

It was the same when Glasgow were top dogs, and they had classy Fijians and South Africans playing for them. The Welsh regions do not have the money to bring big stars into their teams.

by mikey_dragon Mon 28 Jun 2021, 10:30 am

LordDowlais wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Yet it's odd that despite the Irish Provinces comfortably outperforming the Welsh Regions the Welsh national team has more success than the Irish one. So I think you then have to look at what the point of the Regions is. Are they to be successful in their own right or are they there to produce players for the national team?

It because the Irish provinces spend a lot of money on good quality NIQ players who actually boost the teams they play in, a luxury the national team does not have.

It was the same when Glasgow were top dogs, and they had classy Fijians and South Africans playing for them. The Welsh regions do not have the money to bring big stars into their teams.

The Irish teams are packed full of Irish players. The NIQ’s might have been the case in the past. If only we realised that investing in good player / coach personnel could improve a team…

It was the same for Glasgow, packed full of Scottish players. Only Nakarawa and the Fijian scrum-half / winger made a difference to the starting team. Their lineup once boasted Russell, Hogg and Hastings.

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 10:47 am

When Glasgow won the league they had the following NSQ players:-

Van der Merwe(D.T.H)
De Klerk
Nakarawa
Matawalu
Yanyanutawa

Theres five players right there.

Ulster have 11 players who are not really Irish, although players like Rob Herring have now qualified. Munster are the same, 11 players born outside Ireland, but players like Joey Carberry are now IQ. Leinster have only 4, but James GIBSON-PARK now qualifies. Connacht have 7 players born outside of Ireland, but players like Bundi Aki are now IQ.

See where this is going ? They can afford quality NIQ players, who can boost the team and hopefully eventually represent the national squad, unfortunately the Welsh regions cannot afford such luxuries.

Although I do agree, they are massively mismanaged.

by Pete330v2 Mon 28 Jun 2021, 11:12 am

"Ulster have 11 players who are not really Irish"

I can't list 11 but I get the point however the draw of the Irish sides has diminished significantly. At Ulster we'll have only the one NIQ player in Sam Carter, not exactly the marquee signing of old but a solid squad player and leader. At Ulster it's the coaching ticket that's made the big difference with the home grown guys making up a lot more of the spine of the team than ever before.

The Welsh regions needs a lot more success in the league in terms of performance and wins etc. I would bet quite a bit on that being the case next season, I can see an upturn in the Welsh threat coming so I wouldn't despair that much. It's coming home!!! Wink

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 12:31 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:"Ulster have 11 players who are not really Irish"

I can't list 11 but I get the point however the draw of the Irish sides has diminished significantly. At Ulster we'll have only the one NIQ player in Sam Carter, not exactly the marquee signing of old but a solid squad player and leader. At Ulster it's the coaching ticket that's made the big difference with the home grown guys making up a lot more of the spine of the team than ever before.

The Welsh regions needs a lot more success in the league in terms of performance and wins etc. I would bet quite a bit on that being the case next season, I can see an upturn in the Welsh threat coming so I wouldn't despair that much. It's coming home!!!

Hi Pete, I got the info from here:-

https://all.rugby/club/ulster/squad

I do not know how many are now IQ but I took the following:-

Gareth MILASINOVICH (English)
Brad ROBERTS (South African)
Rob HERRING (South African)
Kieran TREADWELL (English)
Sam CARTER (New Zealand)
Sean REIDY (New Zealand)
Alby MATHEWSON (New Zealand)
Billy BURNS (English)
Matt FADDES (New Zealand)
Will ADDISON (English)
Louis LUDIK (South African)

Like I said though, I do not know how many of these are now IQ.

Also, you had Marcell Coetzee for a bit.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:10 pm

What's the difference between Carbery and North then?

by mikey_dragon Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:18 pm

Sam Carter is Australian, and he is capped. IQ off the top of my head are Milasnovich, Herring, Treadwell, Reidy, Burns, Addison. That’s no different to what Ospreys and other regions have been up to.

There is no doubt this has helped Ulster, but their 23 is still stacked with Irish players, like Munster’s and especially Leinster. I don’t see what the argument is tbh.

by Welshmushroom Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:33 pm

TJ wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It boils down to money, which is needed to attract better coaches and players. I believe the argument is the WRU are putting money elsewhere rather than into the regions, so you can expect this to continue.

Once again - its well proven that the welsh regions have similar player budgets to all bar leinster. Scarlets are one of the best funded teams.

In fairness Mikey, I understand why they are using it for Capital projects. Keep in mind this money they got will mean the WRU will receive less revenue as a direct result from this over the term of the contract they have in place. So it makes perfect sense to use that money for Capital projects (Hotels, Restaurants etc) to try to bring in more long term revenue back into WRU coffers. The money those projects will make will go back into the game but more on a longer terms and will probably end up bringing in far more money than the initial investments.

To be fair giving the CVC money to the regions now with their track record, would only result in them squandering it for overpaid players. This money won't go into any of their long term projects or investments and instead they will just look to try to get early league success.

Personally the WRU are doing the right thing here as anything that potentially improves the overall income of finances long terms will help the development of the game in wales in years to come.

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:34 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Sam Carter is Australian, and he is capped. IQ off the top of my head are Milasnovich, Herring, Treadwell, Reidy, Burns, Addison. That’s no different to what Ospreys and other regions have been up to.

There is no doubt this has helped Ulster, but their 23 is still stacked with Irish players, like Munster’s and especially Leinster. I don’t see what the argument is tbh.

I'm not arguing. What a strange thing to say. Headscratch

All I am doing is pointing out that the Irish provinces can afford to attract top quality players from overseas. Where as, the Welsh regions have to take more of a gamble, sometimes they will pick up a HalaHolo, sometimes they will pick up an Asquith or a Ganzalo Bertranou or a JOE MAKSYMIW.

I am not saying Ospreys are not doing it either, but how many of theirs are good enough for Wales ?

by Welshmushroom Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:40 pm

I have to say though I like the way Booth is taking the Ospreys. Granted not a big fan of his Taione signing but he really is going all out on youth development.

Have to say Ryan has been excellent for the Dragons as well in that way. If you look at our budget compared to the other 3 they should have been battering us last season. But that never really happened and with the amount of Dragons players now being called in for Wales you can see the snowball effect has when you do reward youngsters who might not be on great money with chances.

Granted at this stage no doubt the other 3 will no doubt start targeting our players again but I really hope Ryan continues on this pathway.

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:44 pm

I have looked at all 4 squads, and I can honestly say I am pleasantly surprised, as most of the squads have at least 90% Welsh players.

There are a few overseas players there, but nothing to really write home about.

by Guest Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:49 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
TJ wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It boils down to money, which is needed to attract better coaches and players. I believe the argument is the WRU are putting money elsewhere rather than into the regions, so you can expect this to continue.

Once again - its well proven that the welsh regions have similar player budgets to all bar leinster. Scarlets are one of the best funded teams.

In fairness Mikey, I understand why they are using it for Capital projects. Keep in mind this money they got will mean the WRU will receive less revenue as a direct result from this over the term of the contract they have in place. So it makes perfect sense to use that money for Capital projects (Hotels, Restaurants etc) to try to bring in more long term revenue back into WRU coffers. The money those projects will make will go back into the game but more on a longer terms and will probably end up bringing in far more money than the initial investments.

To be fair giving the CVC money to the regions now with their track record, would only result in them squandering it for overpaid players. This money won't go into any of their long term projects or investments and instead they will just look to try to get early league success.

Personally the WRU are doing the right thing here as anything that potentially improves the overall income of finances long terms will help the development of the game in wales in years to come.

I could be wrong but I thought part of the argument against the WRU using the money for capital projects was that this year due to COVID the regions will have a deficit in their budgets meaning they need to take out a 20 year (Edit: 5 year) loan in order to pay players and keep themselves afloat. I don’t think anyone would argue with building hotels as a long term investment in normal times. That seems like good business. But during the current climate it’s not a great look when the regions are facing so much uncertainty and now will have a loan to pay every year out of their funding, which of course will mean they have less money going forward. I know they haven’t got a good track record but we’re not talking about giving them extra money here, as far as I know. My understanding is that they have not had their normal amount for TV, competition and player release monies as the monies go via the WRU and the WRU has held some back due to a black hole in their own finances. Again, I could have misunderstood this so feel free to correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:52 pm

I am not sure how Bertranou couldn't be called a success, thus far. He has been a far better 9 for us, than players like Knoyle and has really kept Rhodri Williams on his toes, resulting in Williams' form being rewarded with selection for Team Wales.

Maksymiw maybe hasn't set the world alight yet, but is WQ and has done okay when available.

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:53 pm

RiscaGame wrote:I am not sure how Bertranou couldn't be called a success, thus far. He has been a far better 9 for us, than players like Knoyle and has really kept Rhodri Williams on his toes, resulting in Williams' form being rewarded with selection for Team Wales.

Maksymiw maybe hasn't set the world alight yet, but is WQ and has done okay when available.

Hes no Gibson-Park is he ?

And that is my point.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:56 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
TJ wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It boils down to money, which is needed to attract better coaches and players. I believe the argument is the WRU are putting money elsewhere rather than into the regions, so you can expect this to continue.

Once again - its well proven that the welsh regions have similar player budgets to all bar leinster. Scarlets are one of the best funded teams.

In fairness Mikey, I understand why they are using it for Capital projects. Keep in mind this money they got will mean the WRU will receive less revenue as a direct result from this over the term of the contract they have in place. So it makes perfect sense to use that money for Capital projects (Hotels, Restaurants etc) to try to bring in more long term revenue back into WRU coffers. The money those projects will make will go back into the game but more on a longer terms and will probably end up bringing in far more money than the initial investments.

To be fair giving the CVC money to the regions now with their track record, would only result in them squandering it for overpaid players. This money won't go into any of their long term projects or investments and instead they will just look to try to get early league success.

Personally the WRU are doing the right thing here as anything that potentially improves the overall income of finances long terms will help the development of the game in wales in years to come.

I could be wrong but I thought part of the argument agains the WRU using the money for capital problems was that this year due to COVID the regions will have a deficit in their budgets meaning they need to take out a 20 year loan in order to pay players and keep themselves afloat. I don’t think anyone would argue with building hotels as a long term investment in normal times. That seems like good business. But during the current climate it’s not a great look when the regions are facing so much uncertainty and now will have a loan to pay every year out of their funding, which of course will mean they have less money going forward. I know they haven’t got a good track record but we’re not talking about giving them extra money here, as far as I know. My understanding is that they have not had their normal amount for TV, competition and player release monies as the monies go via the WRU and the WRU has held some back due to a black hole in their own finances. Again, I could have misunderstood this so feel free to correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

Yeah, these are similar to my thoughts on it, to be honest. It's not the future planning, it just currently seems a bit unnecessary with how the pro teams are struggling.

by Guest Mon 28 Jun 2021, 1:57 pm

I’ve looked on Wiki at the squads and it is surprisingly low at the regions. I was surprised. Between 4 and 7 players per squad who are not Welsh. The Dragons have 6, and 3 of those are Welsh qualified by either residency or dual nationality. So only 3 ‘proper’ overseas players.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I am not sure how Bertranou couldn't be called a success, thus far. He has been a far better 9 for us, than players like Knoyle and has really kept Rhodri Williams on his toes, resulting in Williams' form being rewarded with selection for Team Wales.

Maksymiw maybe hasn't set the world alight yet, but is WQ and has done okay when available.

Hes no Gibson-Park is he ?

And that is my point.

You can't really expect to compare what Dragons can sign, to what Leinster can. For Dragons to sign an international player, is very good. For a more realistic comparison, he's an improvement on Luke Baldwin, so I don't see the issue. I don't think many people would put him in the poor signing category.

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:02 pm

The Oracle wrote:I’ve looked on Wiki at the squads and it is surprisingly low at the regions. I was surprised. Between 4 and 7 players per squad who are not Welsh. The Dragons have 6, and 3 of those are Welsh qualified by either residency or dual nationality. So only 3 ‘proper’ overseas players.

Yep I was surprised as well.

The Irish provinces have a lot more, is that down to money ?

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:05 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I am not sure how Bertranou couldn't be called a success, thus far. He has been a far better 9 for us, than players like Knoyle and has really kept Rhodri Williams on his toes, resulting in Williams' form being rewarded with selection for Team Wales.

Maksymiw maybe hasn't set the world alight yet, but is WQ and has done okay when available.

Hes no Gibson-Park is he ?

And that is my point.

You can't really expect to compare what Dragons can sign, to what Leinster can. For Dragons to sign an international player, is very good. For a more realistic comparison, he's an improvement on Luke Baldwin, so I don't see the issue. I don't think many people would put him in the poor signing category.

Yes. I know.

But I am comparing, as the initial thought that was raised on how the Welsh national team does better than the Irish team, yet the provinces are way ahead of the regions, and I have said the Irish provinces can afford better over seas players.

But I guess that would not stop you trying to bang heads with me, again. Rolling Eyes

by **RiscaGame** Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:06 pm

The Oracle wrote:I’ve looked on Wiki at the squads and it is surprisingly low at the regions. I was surprised. Between 4 and 7 players per squad who are not Welsh. The Dragons have 6, and 3 of those are Welsh qualified by either residency or dual nationality. So only 3 ‘proper’ overseas players.

Bateman, Fairbrother, Maksymiw, Huw Taylor? Bertranou, Talbot Davies?

That's my best guess.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

But I guess that would not stop you trying to bang heads with me, again.

Jesus. You called somebody a poor signing, I explained why I thought he wasn't. You don't have to take things to heart.

by Guest Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I’ve looked on Wiki at the squads and it is surprisingly low at the regions. I was surprised. Between 4 and 7 players per squad who are not Welsh. The Dragons have 6, and 3 of those are Welsh qualified by either residency or dual nationality. So only 3 ‘proper’ overseas players.

Yep I was surprised as well.

The Irish provinces have a lot more, is that down to money ?

Could be but you also have to factor in the foreign player policies in Ireland v Wales (I don’t know what it is in either anymore, but maybe they have a higher limit?) - a low limit would drive up the cost of Welsh players for example meaning your squad budget does not go as far; the 60 cap rule which makes more Welsh players want to stay at home meaning we don’t need to shop overseas as much; the Irish tax break - complete guess but could the Irish teams offer lower wages to players due to the tax break they get? If so they would be able to buy more players for the same budget if the budgets were the same. But yes, the main reason you would think would be money and I’ve always had the feeling that the Irish teams have on average higher budgets than the Welsh ones. As mentioned elsewhere though just increasing the budgets of the Welsh regions is not going to improve things if the focus is still on Welsh players as you end up just paying the same welsh players even more money for no improvement in performance. An increase in budget either needs to be in line with an allowance to shop for marquee overseas players or it needs to be spent on improving the coaching roster and the academy facilities, coaching, structures, etc.

by Guest Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:19 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I’ve looked on Wiki at the squads and it is surprisingly low at the regions. I was surprised. Between 4 and 7 players per squad who are not Welsh. The Dragons have 6, and 3 of those are Welsh qualified by either residency or dual nationality. So only 3 ‘proper’ overseas players.

Bateman, Fairbrother, Maksymiw, Huw Taylor? Bertranou, Talbot Davies?

That's my best guess.

Nearly spot on, if Wiki is correct. Talbot Davies is listed as Welsh. We have Tom Griffiths listed as English but duel qualified. I actually got it wrong - 5 of the 6 are Welsh qualified due to residency or dual nationality, not 3. Only Bertranou is not Welsh qualified according to Wiki.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:24 pm

I did think of Griffiths, but then went WTD because of place of birth. I don't really buy into the whole where you're born defines your nationality thing, but wasn't sure between those two.

Not too bad that then.

by Guest Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:27 pm

RiscaGame wrote:I did think of Griffiths, but then went WTD because of place of birth. I don't really buy into the whole where you're born defines your nationality thing, but wasn't sure between those two.

Not too bad that then.

Has Talbot Davies played for Wales U20 maybe? If so that would ‘change’ his nationality to Welsh I think.

by Guest Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:30 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
TJ wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It boils down to money, which is needed to attract better coaches and players. I believe the argument is the WRU are putting money elsewhere rather than into the regions, so you can expect this to continue.

Once again - its well proven that the welsh regions have similar player budgets to all bar leinster. Scarlets are one of the best funded teams.

In fairness Mikey, I understand why they are using it for Capital projects. Keep in mind this money they got will mean the WRU will receive less revenue as a direct result from this over the term of the contract they have in place. So it makes perfect sense to use that money for Capital projects (Hotels, Restaurants etc) to try to bring in more long term revenue back into WRU coffers. The money those projects will make will go back into the game but more on a longer terms and will probably end up bringing in far more money than the initial investments.

To be fair giving the CVC money to the regions now with their track record, would only result in them squandering it for overpaid players. This money won't go into any of their long term projects or investments and instead they will just look to try to get early league success.

Personally the WRU are doing the right thing here as anything that potentially improves the overall income of finances long terms will help the development of the game in wales in years to come.

I could be wrong but I thought part of the argument against the WRU using the money for capital projects was that this year due to COVID the regions will have a deficit in their budgets meaning they need to take out a 20 year (Edit: 5 year) loan in order to pay players and keep themselves afloat. I don’t think anyone would argue with building hotels as a long term investment in normal times. That seems like good business. But during the current climate it’s not a great look when the regions are facing so much uncertainty and now will have a loan to pay every year out of their funding, which of course will mean they have less money going forward. I know they haven’t got a good track record but we’re not talking about giving them extra money here, as far as I know. My understanding is that they have not had their normal amount for TV, competition and player release monies as the monies go via the WRU and the WRU has held some back due to a black hole in their own finances. Again, I could have misunderstood this so feel free to correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

Here’s a bit more about the loan thing. Andrew Coombs describing what I was saying and questioning the decision:

“Former Wales second row Andrew Coombs has questioned the nature of a £20 million loan taken out in 2020 by the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) to underwrite the survival of professional rugby in Wales.

The £20m loan was taken out by the WRU on behalf of the regions by way of the Coronavirus Large Business Interruption Loan Scheme (CLBILS), with £5.5m going to the Scarlets, £5m to Ospreys and Cardiff Blues, and £4.5m to the Dragons.

The loan was in part to cover the shortfall in the normal payments that the regions enjoy for the provision and ongoing production of players to the union. In a normal year the payment is around £25m, and is significantly more than the revenue generated by television broadcast right, ticket sales and general commercial revenue.

Coombs – who won 10 caps for Wales between 2013 and 2014 – says that the WRU are now rebranding their annual payment to the Welsh regions for services rendered as a loan that the sides must now pay.

Coombs wrote: “1. The WRU are a customer to the regions. 2. In normal times they pay the regions £26m for their services. 3. The effect of Covid reduced their payment from £26m to £3m. 4. WRU borrow £20m to distribute to regions but expect them to pay this back with interest. 5. Why?! How?!”

“The regions have not changed or reduced the service they provide to the WRU! It’s not the fault of the regions that the WRU have to borrow to pay their customer! I’m struggling to understand how this debt is being passed on. The regions provided a Championship winning squad!” continued Coombs.”

by LordDowlais Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:32 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

But I guess that would not stop you trying to bang heads with me, again.

Jesus. You called somebody a poor signing, I explained why I thought he wasn't. You don't have to take things to heart.

I didn't call him a poor signing though, I am just trying to compare the overseas signings made by the regions, to that of other unions. Thats all.

I think I will leave this debate as there is nothing more for me to say. thumbsup

by Pete330v2 Mon 28 Jun 2021, 2:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Ulster have 11 players who are not really Irish"

I can't list 11 but I get the point however the draw of the Irish sides has diminished significantly. At Ulster we'll have only the one NIQ player in Sam Carter, not exactly the marquee signing of old but a solid squad player and leader. At Ulster it's the coaching ticket that's made the big difference with the home grown guys making up a lot more of the spine of the team than ever before.

The Welsh regions needs a lot more success in the league in terms of performance and wins etc. I would bet quite a bit on that being the case next season, I can see an upturn in the Welsh threat coming so I wouldn't despair that much. It's coming home!!!

Hi Pete, I got the info from here:-

https://all.rugby/club/ulster/squad

I do not know how many are now IQ but I took the following:-

Gareth MILASINOVICH (English)
Brad ROBERTS (South African)
Rob HERRING (South African)
Kieran TREADWELL (English)
Sam CARTER (New Zealand)
Sean REIDY (New Zealand)
Alby MATHEWSON (New Zealand)
Billy BURNS (English)
Matt FADDES (New Zealand)
Will ADDISON (English)
Louis LUDIK (South African)

Like I said though, I do not know how many of these are now IQ.

Also, you had Marcell Coetzee for a bit.

Ah that explains it LD.

Gareth MILASINOVICH (South African) but IQ through a Grandfather who played hooker for Ulster.
Brad ROBERTS (South African) now IQ through residency and also has the best hair in the League.
Rob HERRING (South African) IQ through and Irish Grandfather
Kieran TREADWELL (English) IQ through an Irish Mother.
Sam CARTER (New Zealand) NIQ, can't be as he played for the Ozzies.
Sean REIDY (New Zealand) IQ through a Granfather from Kerry.
Billy BURNS (English) IQ through an Irish Grandfather.
Will ADDISON (English) IQ through and Irish Mum, he even had a clause in his Sale contract to be released if Ireland cam knocking.

Ludik, Matthewson and Faddes are no longer in the squad.

So we'll only have the one NIQ and one IQ by residency in the squad next year. The rest all at least have some Irish DNA.

by neilthom7 Mon 28 Jun 2021, 5:25 pm

Also should be stated out that Brad Roberts wasn't actually brought north by Ulster, he moved here and started playing rugby for Rainey Old Boys (a ail team from Magherafelt) then his performances after a couple of years got him noticed and he was brought into the Ulster squad initially as injury cover then more recently permanently after he impressed. Also Pete is right, best hair in the league

by geoff999rugby Mon 28 Jun 2021, 6:13 pm

In the modern world where marriage between people of different nationalities is quite common a lot of people have an emotional pull by more than one nation.
For Ulster to have only two with no Irish connections, and one of them (Roberts) has said he intends to live here after finishing with rugby is exceptional.
Also their are names on that list you would not tell them they are not Irish, they would put you straight in no uncertain terms.
I'd like that to be compared to any other of the three major league teams in the NH

by LordDowlais Tue 29 Jun 2021, 8:09 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Ulster have 11 players who are not really Irish"

I can't list 11 but I get the point however the draw of the Irish sides has diminished significantly. At Ulster we'll have only the one NIQ player in Sam Carter, not exactly the marquee signing of old but a solid squad player and leader. At Ulster it's the coaching ticket that's made the big difference with the home grown guys making up a lot more of the spine of the team than ever before.

The Welsh regions needs a lot more success in the league in terms of performance and wins etc. I would bet quite a bit on that being the case next season, I can see an upturn in the Welsh threat coming so I wouldn't despair that much. It's coming home!!!

Hi Pete, I got the info from here:-

https://all.rugby/club/ulster/squad

I do not know how many are now IQ but I took the following:-

Gareth MILASINOVICH (English)
Brad ROBERTS (South African)
Rob HERRING (South African)
Kieran TREADWELL (English)
Sam CARTER (New Zealand)
Sean REIDY (New Zealand)
Alby MATHEWSON (New Zealand)
Billy BURNS (English)
Matt FADDES (New Zealand)
Will ADDISON (English)
Louis LUDIK (South African)

Like I said though, I do not know how many of these are now IQ.

Also, you had Marcell Coetzee for a bit.

Ah that explains it LD.

Gareth MILASINOVICH (South African) but IQ through a Grandfather who played hooker for Ulster.
Brad ROBERTS (South African) now IQ through residency and also has the best hair in the League.
Rob HERRING (South African) IQ through and Irish Grandfather
Kieran TREADWELL (English) IQ through an Irish Mother.
Sam CARTER (New Zealand) NIQ, can't be as he played for the Ozzies.
Sean REIDY (New Zealand) IQ through a Granfather from Kerry.
Billy BURNS (English) IQ through an Irish Grandfather.
Will ADDISON (English) IQ through and Irish Mum, he even had a clause in his Sale contract to be released if Ireland cam knocking.

Ludik, Matthewson and Faddes are no longer in the squad.

So we'll only have the one NIQ and one IQ by residency in the squad next year. The rest all at least have some Irish DNA.

Yeah, I didn't claim any of them weren't Irish now, what you have said explains a lot.

But the point I am making is, the Irish provinces manage to attract a higher caliber of overseas players than the Welsh regions do, that then help the provinces achieve a lot more than the Welsh regions, which is not replicated at international level.

I am not knocking anything the Irish provinces do by the way, just tried answering a question asked by formerly known as Sam. I didn't think the topic would morph into what it has. Laugh

by PhilBB Wed 30 Jun 2021, 10:06 am

RiscaGame wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I’ve looked on Wiki at the squads and it is surprisingly low at the regions. I was surprised. Between 4 and 7 players per squad who are not Welsh. The Dragons have 6, and 3 of those are Welsh qualified by either residency or dual nationality. So only 3 ‘proper’ overseas players.

Bateman, Fairbrother, Maksymiw, Huw Taylor? Bertranou, Talbot Davies?

That's my best guess.

Bateman is Welsh qualified: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/dragons-announce-signing-welsh-qualified-18861076
Fairbrother is Welsh qualified: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/larger-life-prop-who-becoming-14007012
Maksymiw is Welsh qualified: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-qualified-giant-joe-maksymiw-18522331
Taylor is Welsh qualified: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52561542
Talbot-Davies is Welsh qualified: https://www.dragonsrugby.wales/teams/player/dragons/184940/will-talbot-davies.html

by PhilBB Wed 30 Jun 2021, 1:58 pm

So the WRU will pay £23m for this upcoming season, allegedly, perhaps. That, of course, excludes the "hidden" costs it swallows for the Dragons (who, hopefully, will be out of WRU ownership at some point during the next season).

As a comparison, the RFU paid out £112m over 4 years - obviously £28m a year.

So that's a £5m a year difference, compounded by the Welsh four having to do the work (therefore, being equally impacted) as 13 English clubs.

The Executive of the WRU signed up to a daft agreement with Nat West that contains caveats that already hinder the professional clubs, but this now confirms that Executive is content to pay less than the market rate and as little as possible to feed its Golden Goose.

Of course, the impact on said Goose is clear and obvious and just a few years away. Once that impact hits, most of the Executive will have moved on and most of the moronic RMWP will blame "da reejunz" for being rubbish, without a thought in their heads as to why.

by Welshmushroom Wed 30 Jun 2021, 6:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Yet it's odd that despite the Irish Provinces comfortably outperforming the Welsh Regions the Welsh national team has more success than the Irish one. So I think you then have to look at what the point of the Regions is. Are they to be successful in their own right or are they there to produce players for the national team?

It because the Irish provinces spend a lot of money on good quality NIQ players who actually boost the teams they play in, a luxury the national team does not have.

It was the same when Glasgow were top dogs, and they had classy Fijians and South Africans playing for them. The Welsh regions do not have the money to bring big stars into their teams.

Part of the reason for that though is because instead of actually bringing through players they cross compete with the other regions to try to stay above them (mainly because of funding).

This in turn has resulted in a massive increase in welsh national players salaries. Its primarily why the WRU introduced the pay band because things were getting silly. Some of the English coaches in the Welsh system have already commented that they were surprised at some of the wages players in wales are on. And these are guys who have coached in England.

by TJ Wed 30 Jun 2021, 10:45 pm

Glzsgow in the season where they were good had a low wage bill for the pro 14. top player in Scotland a year or two ago was Hogg on £300 000 pa. There were loads of poorer welsh players getting paid more. This means you cannot have the squad depth you need for a league campaign as you spent too much on a handful of stars and thus the wider squad ends up weak

by LordDowlais Thu 01 Jul 2021, 9:50 am

The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.

Welsh rugby's financial dispute is over as Cardiff, Ospreys, Scarlets and Dragons funding for next two seasons confirmed

A long-running impasse between the Welsh Rugby Union and the regions had been stifling the game in Wales

The regions have finally reached an agreement with the Welsh Rugby Union over the funding they will receive from the governing body over the next two seasons.

The professional game in Wales has been embroiled in a long-running financial dispute, which has made it virtually impossible for the teams to plan for next season.

It is believed they were holding out for a payment of £26 million next season but the agreement, which was passed by the WRU board earlier this month, will see them receive £23m next season and £23.5m the following year.

They will also now be receiving £5m for year ending June 2021. They were previously due only to receive £3m.

The money will now be distributed to each individual region by the Professional Game Board (PRB), which includes representatives from all four regions. The amount each region receives is based on a number of different criteria, including how many players each team contributes to the Wales squad, for example.

Whilst a longer term clarity over the payments will be welcome - it has previously been done on a year-by-year basis - and allows the regions to plan more effectively, the figures are still subject to the Professional Rugby Agreement (PRA).

That means that if the WRU have another disastrous year financially, as they did in the last 12 months due to Covid, then the payments are unlikely to remain as quoted above.

"The PRB has worked hard on this latest agreement and we are confident we have found a solution that meets the short term requirements of each of our four regional sides," said WRU CEO Steve Phillips.

"The WRU Board is delighted to approve this solution to provide further stability to the professional game, in these most extenuating circumstances.

"The projected funding described is naturally subject to fluctuation depending on circumstance – as we all know well from recent experience – but it is also acknowledged by all parties that parameters, within which we can all operate, must be set as far in advance as possible, in order to facilitate the necessary planning process."

Whilst news of the payments is welcome, there is still nothing on the proposed restructuring of the £20m loan that was taken out by the WRU to help the regions survive the pandemic.

Under current arrangements, the regions themselves will be tasked with repaying that £20m over a five year period.

The WRU insist they are attempting to renegotiate the terms of the loan to stretch the repayments out over a longer period, easing the financial burden of it.

But there has been no news over whether or not those talks have been successful.

Link Here

by Guest Thu 01 Jul 2021, 10:25 am

TJ wrote:Glzsgow in the season where they were good had a low wage bill for the pro 14. top player in Scotland a year or two ago was Hogg on £300 000 pa. There were loads of poorer welsh players getting paid more. This means you cannot have the squad depth you need for a league campaign as you spent too much on a handful of stars and thus the wider squad ends up weak

Which ones? Name and shame.

by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:16 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
Part of the reason for that though is because instead of actually bringing through players they cross compete with the other regions to try to stay above them (mainly because of funding).

This in turn has resulted in a massive increase in welsh national players salaries. Its primarily why the WRU introduced the pay band because things were getting silly. Some of the English coaches in the Welsh system have already commented that they were surprised at some of the wages players in wales are on. And these are guys who have coached in England.

The above post is just complete drivel.

The Irish branches cross compete for players.

The "massive increase in Welsh national player salaries" is caused by the WRU banding which, in turn, is line with the market wages for players. And that market is pan-European, of course. The WRU banding has not REDUCED salaries.

I doubt you could name one coach who made such a claim.

by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:16 am

TJ wrote:Glzsgow in the season where they were good had a low wage bill for the pro 14. top player in Scotland a year or two ago was Hogg on £300 000 pa. There were loads of poorer welsh players getting paid more. This means you cannot have the squad depth you need for a league campaign as you spent too much on a handful of stars and thus the wider squad ends up weak

Again, this is nonsense.

The SRU spend on professional rugby disproves your first sentence. Completely and entirely.

I doubt you could name "poorer Welsh players getting paid more"

by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.

Which, of course, is all non-sensical bull. And a pack of lies.

The figures to be paid are complete unknowns, without a minimum guarantee and completely rely on WRU income. This is just management of the news to hide the fact that Phillips failed to renegotiate the loan with Nat West, having it 'deferred temporarily' instead.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 01 Jul 2021, 12:29 pm

It would be good for WOL etc to push on this.

The WRU insist they are attempting to renegotiate the terms of the loan to stretch the repayments out over a longer period, easing the financial burden of it.

But there has been no news over whether or not those talks have been successful.

by Welshmushroom Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:09 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
Part of the reason for that though is because instead of actually bringing through players they cross compete with the other regions to try to stay above them (mainly because of funding).

This in turn has resulted in a massive increase in welsh national players salaries. Its primarily why the WRU introduced the pay band because things were getting silly. Some of the English coaches in the Welsh system have already commented that they were surprised at some of the wages players in wales are on. And these are guys who have coached in England.

The above post is just complete drivel.

The Irish branches cross compete for players.

The "massive increase in Welsh national player salaries" is caused by the WRU banding which, in turn, is line with the market wages for players. And that market is pan-European, of course. The WRU banding has not REDUCED salaries.

I doubt you could name one coach who made such a claim.

Booth for starters. Also pointing at the Irish system doesn't actually disprove my point. Yes cross competition happens in all countries but Ireland is a poor choice of example. For starters most movements tend to be players who are leaving for more rugby rather than salaries unless of course they actually leave Ireland in which case yes they get significant pay rises but the majority of movements tend to be in Ireland. If we looked at Leinster for example they primarily have produced most of their own talent.

Secondly the banding was brought in because players salaries were inflating past acceptable levels to the WRU. The banding which was brought in was in line with going rates and part of the reason is because they could see player wages getting out of hand. There had been plenty of articles at the time about this exact issue.

by Welshmushroom Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.

Which, of course, is all non-sensical bull. And a pack of lies.

The figures to be paid are complete unknowns, without a minimum guarantee and completely rely on WRU income. This is just management of the news to hide the fact that Phillips failed to renegotiate the loan with Nat West, having it 'deferred temporarily' instead.

Didn't they just confirm confirm this yesterday on both the regional websites and WRU website not to mention a ton of outlets. Pretty sure they specified funding in the press releases.

by LordDowlais Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:24 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.

Which, of course, is all non-sensical bull. And a pack of lies.

The figures to be paid are complete unknowns, without a minimum guarantee and completely rely on WRU income. This is just management of the news to hide the fact that Phillips failed to renegotiate the loan with Nat West, having it 'deferred temporarily' instead.

Didn't they just confirm confirm this yesterday on both the regional websites and WRU website not to mention a ton of outlets. Pretty sure they specified funding in the press releases.

The thing is, a lot of fans, not all, but a lot, will look at everything else to blame for the regions lack of success rather than look at how they have been miss managed over the years. Just the way it is.

by Welshmushroom Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:37 pm

Indeed Dowlais - to be fair to the regions they are pretty good at misdirection Smile

by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:43 am

Welshmushroom wrote:

Booth for starters. Also pointing at the Irish system doesn't actually disprove my point. Yes cross competition happens in all countries but Ireland is a poor choice of example. For starters most movements tend to be players who are leaving for more rugby rather than salaries unless of course they actually leave Ireland in which case yes they get significant pay rises but the majority of movements tend to be in Ireland. If we looked at Leinster for example they primarily have produced most of their own talent.

Secondly the banding was brought in because players salaries were inflating past acceptable levels to the WRU. The banding which was brought in was in line with going rates and part of the reason is because they could see player wages getting out of hand. There had been plenty of articles at the time about this exact issue.

Where's the link to support your Booth claim?

And your comment on Ireland is pure nonsense. A player can leave Branch A for more rugby, but if Branch B and Branch C are interested in him then they will bid up his value.

The banding was brought in so the WRU could show how it (ironically) values the players, to give them the knowledge of what they need to do in order to improve their lot. Since then, many 'appeals' have been successful, showing how the banding is a nonsense (and, probably, illegal).

by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:43 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.

Which, of course, is all non-sensical bull. And a pack of lies.

The figures to be paid are complete unknowns, without a minimum guarantee and completely rely on WRU income. This is just management of the news to hide the fact that Phillips failed to renegotiate the loan with Nat West, having it 'deferred temporarily' instead.

Didn't they just confirm confirm this yesterday on both the regional websites and WRU website not to mention a ton of outlets. Pretty sure they specified funding in the press releases.

In which case you haven't read it. Read it. There's no commitment to anything.

by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:43 am

Welshmushroom wrote:Indeed Dowlais - to be fair to the regions they are pretty good at misdirection

His point was the exact opposite.

Dear God.

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