Lions Moans, Groans and Negativity

Despite the fact that I'll argue my point til the cows come home I do always try to remain positive and at least try to argue the merits of 1 player or tactic vs the other but the Lions is really dragging me down. I'll continue to argue the selection of players I think are better in the main thread but I just want to post all my negativity on this to get it a little bit out of my system.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57007554

First up Matt Dawson; shut up no he doesn't Gatland is a terrible selector. 'I can understand what Gatland and the selectors are thinking with all their choices. It makes sense to me. There is not any player that I think is a risk.' You can tell why he doesn't get very many tv jobs bar larking around with Sue Barker. Ideally from a piece like Dawson's you may think that it's going to be heavy on analysis, suspected game plans etc, no simply I've played for him, he picked me and so I like him and back him without question. I go back to picking Mako Vunipola in Australia and basically allow him to learn on the job. Then watch him walk around knackered as your replacement loosehead looks on from the bench. As a selector surely you can't applaud a guy that could well have been 2 0 down in tests but for a John Terry style slip by Beale before guys left out from the below par pack of the first 2 games come flying to the rescue, take a bow Corbisiero and O'Brien.

I know we're lacking in some areas and that there are a number of areas within the England team for example which are about to swept aside but bloody hell, we're picking players like Jonny Hill, Elliot Daly, Bundee Aki for the Lions. We're plucking Courtney Lawes from no where seemingly to put him on the flank where England have suffered time and time again. They're made a conscious decision to leave out Navidi and Underhill for Lawes; it's madness. Lawes who apparently wasn't in that list of 50 odd players. He wasn't one of the names put forward initially by any Lions coach including Gatland. WTF does that say about his secondment away from his club who he managed to place bottom of the table until he stepped away and they recovered. Lawes himself again via the Beeb: 'I've played no rugby, so I was hoping my previous form would carry me over, so I'm very excited to go in and prove why I've been named in the squad," he told BBC Radio Northampton.

"I didn't get the email that apparently some people got. I had no idea.'

Hang on didn't Gatland say that players have missed out due to fitness and lack of form, give a wave Billy V, get some durability Jonny S. Except when it doesn't matter and you suddenly remember a player you missed while laying about having a beer for the last few months.

Daly, Jesus H. Christ. The proof positive that form has not been considered whatsoever. A terrible full back who makes me pine for Ugo Monye back there. A centre who even at Wasps when defending was optional looked woeful. A winger who may be considered better than Jonny May by a selector who 'tends to get things right'. Argghh.

I shudder to think to the ramshackle way we're going to play. Sounds like try to not give penalties away at the scrum and pressure their lineout. It's going to be messy and some people think England kick the leather off it (badly this year).

I didn't want to bring a positive note into this but I suppose as with previous tours there may be one or two drop outs and a replacement who rectifies the initial mistake. Or he could just ruin Marcus Smith's England integration to ask him to hold some tackle bags.

Keep it down beat guys.

I do no know what you are moaning about.

This squad excites me. Even split across the four nations. Some players I have not seen much of, so I am excited to see how they go, and yes Gatland does always get it right, thats why he has won numerous competitions during his coaching tenure, including the Lions.

Perhaps if you stipulated why you are so annoyed with the Lions, then perhaps we can gauge where you are coming from.

LordDowlais wrote:I do no know what you are moaning about.

This squad excites me. Even split across the four nations. Some players I have not seen much of, so I am excited to see how they go, and yes Gatland does always get it right, thats why he has won numerous competitions during his coaching tenure, including the Lions.

Perhaps if you stipulated why you are so annoyed with the Lions, then perhaps we can gauge where you are coming from.

I'm genuinely laughing out loud.

7.5, despite the 1000 words above, I have no idea what your grievances are

Yeah... I've literally said why I'm annoyed, even pointing out some areas where Gatland has got it wrong though not all. And to say the line he does always get it right; wow the first perfect coach. It feels to me LD that this is another case of you not actually reading posts, but on a plus point it does maintain the negativity of the thread and for that I thank you.

Price.............

Price.............

Glad you've got your own thread for this, you whingey little so and so

I thought I'd at least give you all a rest to some extent Oracle.

I'm not a fan of the Lions. I just can't feel in any way passionately about the whole idea and never could.

It was a Lions tour that broke Stevie Ferris and not even on the pitch, stepping off the flippin' bus.

It was a Lions tour that broke BOD for a bit.

How's that for negativity?

Sorry!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought I'd at least give you all a rest to some extent Oracle.

Great, really good of you. Please keep it all on this one

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought I'd at least give you all a rest to some extent Oracle.

Great, really good of you.  Please keep it all on this one

I welcome your contribution to the thread. Given you have already said you never disagree with selections from coaches is there anything negative about the tour you want to get off your chest?

I personally find the British and Irish Lions very exciting. It is the one event in rugby where the home nations and Ireland get to stand together and shiw the best of four nations culminating into a very unique tour.

Very much looking forward to it, just a shame the red army won’t travel to support their team.

Pete330v2 wrote:I'm not a fan of the Lions. I just can't feel in any way passionately about the whole idea and never could.

It was a Lions tour that broke Stevie Ferris and not even on the pitch, stepping off the flippin' bus.

It was a Lions tour that broke BOD for a bit.

How's that for negativity?

Sorry!!

Broke Tuilagi too (although he does seem to be a break waiting to happen). Unfortunately the nature of the game is that the next game (or even training session) could always be the last game, and it feels tough as a fan when the player is wrecked for something outside of your club or national squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought I'd at least give you all a rest to some extent Oracle.

Great, really good of you.  Please keep it all on this one

I welcome your contribution to the thread. Given you have already said you never disagree with selections from coaches is there anything negative about the tour you want to get off your chest?

No I'm happy with the squad thanks. Never easy to pick 37 players from around 120 pro internationals. Impossible to please everyone. I'm a little surprised by some but in no way upset. Disappointed for some players as they'll be hurting. But like I said there are probably 90 disappointed players, and 120 into 37 does not go. Such is life. Looking forward to the tour

Great, when it comes to the tests can some of you stay here and leave the rest of us in peace? It always seems like it's mostly English that keep b*tchin about this sort of thing. You guys just can't get with the Lions ethos, I've been witness to it since 2009.

I guess there is just no pleasing some people. I guess you would only be happy if Gatland wasn't coach, AWJ wasn't captain, and all your favourite players were selected.

But life does not work like that.

I am very excited for this tour, some much needed distraction from the crappy world we live in at the moment. I will supporting the Lions from my armchair, or hopefully the club by the time this starts and will be cheering every player selected.

No I'll be posting on the threads as normal and as stated in the original post mikey. Good to see some of the Welsh fans happy with the squad I suppose. Unlike some posts here the annoyance doesn't come from the fact the Lions get in the way but that I want them to win. Can't see it with the guys picked so far.

To quote a certain Scot on here... strewth, it beggars belief.... how some are still whinging about 2013, a tour we WON .

No 7&1/2 wrote:No I'll be posting on the threads as normal and as stated in the original post mikey. Good to see some of the Welsh fans happy with the squad I suppose. Unlike some posts here the annoyance doesn't come from the fact the Lions get in the way but that I want them to win. Can't see it with the guys picked so far.

Good, perhaps you can leave your negativity here then. I am happy with the squad. I don't agree with all of it, but as I have faith in Gatland (more than I do in Pivac) I won't get this upset over it. There's a good team to be made from what we have.

LordDowlais wrote:I guess there is just no pleasing some people. I guess you would only be happy if Gatland wasn't coach, AWJ wasn't captain, and all your favourite players were selected.

But life does not work like that.

I am very excited for this tour, some much needed distraction from the crappy world we live in at the moment. I will supporting the Lions from my armchair, or hopefully the club by the time this starts and will be cheering every player selected.

I would prefer it if Gatland wasn't the coach as I don't rate him as a selector and this backs up my thoughts. Yup, as I've stated I'd prefer the captain to come after the team is named, and yes of course I would prefer it if the players who I thought justified selection were the ones chosen. I'll be doing the same support as a fan but again doesn't mean that I think the results and game plan will be great. Previous 2 tours I've thought we stood a great chance to win, should have white washed the Aussies and got a little lucky, ended on the great win, thanks goodness for Corbisiero, stood a great chance in NZ to win never really reached the heights i thought we could, thanks goodness for SBW forgetting how to tackle. This time, just looks to be a weak squad for what should be a great chance (lack of SA game time). We all (bar Oracle of course!) disagreed with some selections last time (AWJ) i disagree with more this time.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No I'll be posting on the threads as normal and as stated in the original post mikey. Good to see some of the Welsh fans happy with the squad I suppose. Unlike some posts here the annoyance doesn't come from the fact the Lions get in the way but that I want them to win. Can't see it with the guys picked so far.

Good, perhaps you can leave your negativity here then. I am happy with the squad. I don't agree with all of it, but as I have faith in Gatland (more than I do in Pivac) I won't get this upset over it. There's a good team to be made from what we have.

Like I said needed to put the negativity in one place to start with. Think it depends what you see as negativity as to how you see furture posts. the likelihood is that you won't see blind 100% support without questioning decisions etc so you can decide.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I guess there is just no pleasing some people. I guess you would only be happy if Gatland wasn't coach, AWJ wasn't captain, and all your favourite players were selected.

But life does not work like that.

I am very excited for this tour, some much needed distraction from the crappy world we live in at the moment. I will supporting the Lions from my armchair, or hopefully the club by the time this starts and will be cheering every player selected.

I would prefer it if Gatland wasn't the coach as I don't rate him as a selector and this backs up my thoughts. Yup, as I've stated I'd prefer the captain to come after the team is named, and yes of course I would prefer it if the players who I thought justified selection were the ones chosen. I'll be doing the same support as a fan but again doesn't mean that I think the results and game plan will be great. Previous 2 tours I've thought we stood a great chance to win, should have white washed the Aussies and got a little lucky, ended on the great win, thanks goodness for Corbisiero, stood a great chance in NZ to win never really reached the heights i thought we could, thanks goodness for SBW forgetting how to tackle. This time, just looks to be a weak squad for what should be a great chance (lack of SA game time). We all (bar Oracle of course!) disagreed with some selections last time (AWJ) i disagree with more this time.

You are so bitter it defies logic.

There are some selections that have surprised me, but I am excited. I am glad the Scottish have had decent representation this time around, their player deserve it, some of the Scottish selections could go either way, but I am not disappointed they are picked, I am happy to have Hill and Courtney Lawes in there, but I would have preferred Navidi had a place over them, but thems the calls.

Warren Gatlands CV is better than anyone else at the moment, and AWJ's CV is also better than anyone else's at the moment, so I cannot fathom what you are moaning about.

Chin up..... it's not worth crying over.

Lions tour vs Australia. I know there are many other factors involved but Australia came to the UK in the Autumn internationals and England stuffed them

lostinwales wrote:Lions tour vs Australia. I know there are many other factors involved but Australia came to the UK in the Autumn internationals and England stuffed them

Probably because the Lions totally wrecked them before hand.

Especially when all the Welsh Lions were picked for the deciding test and they totally man shamed them in their own back yard, with the help of a few others of course.

Come on the Lions.

lostinwales wrote:Lions tour vs Australia. I know there are many other factors involved but Australia came to the UK in the Autumn internationals and England stuffed them

They were pretty good, until the third test. After that everyone seemed to beat them. Lions pretty much paved the way for NZ and SA stuffing them that year. I don't think Aus have been quite right since being whitewashed by Eddie's England, yet every time I write them off they go and beat the All Blacks.

Not crying about anything LD, simply stating it looks to me like a hard slog. Not sure where the bitterness thing comes from unless you're simply trying to close down debate. You started off by saying that Gatland doesn't make mistakes, clearly incorrect. I get you're happy, I get you think there will be a 3 0 Lions win; just don't see where that optimism comes from.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I guess there is just no pleasing some people. I guess you would only be happy if Gatland wasn't coach, AWJ wasn't captain, and all your favourite players were selected.

But life does not work like that.

I am very excited for this tour, some much needed distraction from the crappy world we live in at the moment. I will supporting the Lions from my armchair, or hopefully the club by the time this starts and will be cheering every player selected.

I would prefer it if Gatland wasn't the coach as I don't rate him as a selector and this backs up my thoughts. Yup, as I've stated I'd prefer the captain to come after the team is named, and yes of course I would prefer it if the players who I thought justified selection were the ones chosen. I'll be doing the same support as a fan but again doesn't mean that I think the results and game plan will be great. Previous 2 tours I've thought we stood a great chance to win, should have white washed the Aussies and got a little lucky, ended on the great win, thanks goodness for Corbisiero, stood a great chance in NZ to win never really reached the heights i thought we could, thanks goodness for SBW forgetting how to tackle. This time, just looks to be a weak squad for what should be a great chance (lack of SA game time). We all (bar Oracle of course!) disagreed with some selections last time (AWJ) i disagree with more this time.

You are so bitter it defies logic.

There are some selections that have surprised me, but I am excited. I am glad the Scottish have had decent representation this time around, their player deserve it, some of the Scottish selections could go either way, but I am not disappointed they are picked, I am happy to have Hill and Courtney Lawes in there, but I would have preferred Navidi had a place over them, but thems the calls.

Warren Gatlands CV is better than anyone else at the moment, and AWJ's CV is also better than anyone else's at the moment, so I cannot fathom what you are moaning about.

Chin up..... it's not worth crying over.

How many world cup finals have Gatland and AWJ been involved in?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get you're happy, I get you think there will be a 3 0 Lions win; just don't see where that optimism comes from.

Because the best coach is in charge, and the best candidate for captain has been picked. Need I say more.

Soul Requiem wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I guess there is just no pleasing some people. I guess you would only be happy if Gatland wasn't coach, AWJ wasn't captain, and all your favourite players were selected.

But life does not work like that.

I am very excited for this tour, some much needed distraction from the crappy world we live in at the moment. I will supporting the Lions from my armchair, or hopefully the club by the time this starts and will be cheering every player selected.

I would prefer it if Gatland wasn't the coach as I don't rate him as a selector and this backs up my thoughts. Yup, as I've stated I'd prefer the captain to come after the team is named, and yes of course I would prefer it if the players who I thought justified selection were the ones chosen. I'll be doing the same support as a fan but again doesn't mean that I think the results and game plan will be great. Previous 2 tours I've thought we stood a great chance to win, should have white washed the Aussies and got a little lucky, ended on the great win, thanks goodness for Corbisiero, stood a great chance in NZ to win never really reached the heights i thought we could, thanks goodness for SBW forgetting how to tackle. This time, just looks to be a weak squad for what should be a great chance (lack of SA game time). We all (bar Oracle of course!) disagreed with some selections last time (AWJ) i disagree with more this time.

You are so bitter it defies logic.

There are some selections that have surprised me, but I am excited. I am glad the Scottish have had decent representation this time around, their player deserve it, some of the Scottish selections could go either way, but I am not disappointed they are picked, I am happy to have Hill and Courtney Lawes in there, but I would have preferred Navidi had a place over them, but thems the calls.

Warren Gatlands CV is better than anyone else at the moment, and AWJ's CV is also better than anyone else's at the moment, so I cannot fathom what you are moaning about.

Chin up..... it's not worth crying over.

How many world cup finals have Gatland and AWJ been involved in?

Coming second is not winning.

How many Lions tours have any other coaches around won ?

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Lions tour vs Australia. I know there are many other factors involved but Australia came to the UK in the Autumn internationals and England stuffed them

Probably because the Lions totally wrecked them before hand.

Especially when all the Welsh Lions were picked for the deciding test and they totally man shamed them in their own back yard, with the help of a few others of course.

Come on the Lions.

SOB and Corbisiero made the difference.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Lions tour vs Australia. I know there are many other factors involved but Australia came to the UK in the Autumn internationals and England stuffed them

Probably because the Lions totally wrecked them before hand.

Especially when all the Welsh Lions were picked for the deciding test and they totally man shamed them in their own back yard, with the help of a few others of course.

Come on the Lions.

SOB and Corbisiero made the difference.

Of course they did.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get you're happy, I get you think there will be a 3 0 Lions win; just don't see where that optimism comes from.

Because the best coach is in charge, and the best candidate for captain has been picked. Need I say more.

Yes please do. That doesn't go into any detail.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get you're happy, I get you think there will be a 3 0 Lions win; just don't see where that optimism comes from.

Because the best coach is in charge, and the best candidate for captain has been picked. Need I say more.

Yes please do. That doesn't go into any detail.

Chin up mun, life is too short.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Lions tour vs Australia. I know there are many other factors involved but Australia came to the UK in the Autumn internationals and England stuffed them

Probably because the Lions totally wrecked them before hand.

Especially when all the Welsh Lions were picked for the deciding test and they totally man shamed them in their own back yard, with the help of a few others of course.

Come on the Lions.

SOB and Corbisiero made the difference.

Of course they did.

And does that then not make you question Gatland picking Vunipola over better scrummaging options in the first 2 tests? Corbs wasn't available of course but he had plenty of options.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get you're happy, I get you think there will be a 3 0 Lions win; just don't see where that optimism comes from.

Because the best coach is in charge, and the best candidate for captain has been picked. Need I say more.

Yes please do. That doesn't go into any detail.

Chin up mun, life is too short.

Lifes too short to post opinions on a rugby forum? Bit odd seeing as you're on a rugby forum.

LordDowlais wrote:

Coming second is not winning.

How many Lions tours have any other coaches around won ?

How many lions tour have any other coaches around been involved in?

Imagine being such an angry little man, so upset that someone didn't pick the exact squad you wanted. Sad. You have my sympathies as life must be tough for you and really disappointing. Smacks of self-entitlement for me - throwing your toys out of the pram when someone doesn't pick the EXACT squad that YOU want. I'm not sure this rugby supporting malarkey is really for you, 7.5!

The Oracle wrote:Imagine being such an angry little man, so upset that someone didn't pick the exact squad you wanted.  Sad.  You have my sympathies as life must be tough for you and really disappointing.  Smacks of self-entitlement for me - throwing your toys out of the pram when someone doesn't pick the EXACT squad that YOU want.  I'm not sure this rugby supporting malarkey is really for you, 7.5!

Its a forum oracle. You don't have to post. Leave the snide posts out of it too. You don't want to offer your own opinions and just merely post saying that Gatland knows more than you fair enough but hardly adds load to a debate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Imagine being such an angry little man, so upset that someone didn't pick the exact squad you wanted.  Sad.  You have my sympathies as life must be tough for you and really disappointing.  Smacks of self-entitlement for me - throwing your toys out of the pram when someone doesn't pick the EXACT squad that YOU want.  I'm not sure this rugby supporting malarkey is really for you, 7.5!

Its a forum oracle. You don't have to post. Leave the snide posts out of it too. You don't want to offer your own  opinions and just merely post saying that Gatland knows more than you fair enough but hardly adds load to a debate.

It's not really debate is it.  That's on the other thread.  This is is moaning.  Moaning about who was picked.  Moaning about the tactics.  Moaning about the test team.  Moaning about the scores.  Moan, moan, moan.  It just drags everyone down.  Glad it's got a place of its own though.  Just hope it's used for its proper purpose and we can just have normal, non-moany debate on the other thread.

P.s. I never said I don't disagree with selections (your claim above). I said I don't criticise them. Subtle difference that

Well it's titled moans, groans and negatives. Debate inevitably isn't merely positive. You though don't seem to want to offer any opinions on rugby or to this threads topic. If that's the case ok, as I said you don't have to post. If you want to offer the opposite view point to this thread and debate great. You seem to merely want to stop the view point all together.

The Oracle wrote:P.s. I never said I don't disagree with selections (your claim above).  I said I don't criticise them.  Subtle difference that

Well there we go. Great. Still means you don't contribute an opinion to selection.

You're not really offering much then to this topic Oracle. As I said please stop with the snide remarks.

Apologies, you're right. I've got nothing to moan about currently. Off I trot.

7&1/2 keep it up.

These boards have been a bit too anodyne for my tastes recently. Let's have a thread where we can be curmudgeonly in peace.

England fifth in the 6 Nations and they get 11 players on tour.  
Courtney Lawes hasn't played since the Relief Of Mafeking. But he goes.
The only Sarrie's player who had a decent 6 Nations was Sean Maitland; he stays home while too many off form players go.
James Ryan must really regret forcing Gats to drink 14 pints of Guiness and chaining him naked to a lamppost in Temple Bar and trying to pass it off as "Good crack Wazza!".

The echoes with Telfer/Geech's successful Lions tour go way beyond Toonie's presence. Gats' appointing Toonie is an admission that  like that tour we will only win if we are brave and play a more adventurous, bolder style of rugby than expected. Find me another sentence with "Gats, adventurous, bolder" in it. Go on, and bring it back here before 4:00pm.
You can't bolt a creative, exciting back division onto a pack dominated by the dullest players in the 6 Nations. I predict an exciting, wonderful Wednesday team and stodge on a Saturday.

Oh and there are too few Scotland players in the squad.

Using Lawes as an example, what's happened here is Blockhead has decided a way he wants to play, and has picked players to suit it. How many times have we criticised coaches in any sport for picking the best players first then trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

He's obviously decided he wants
Blindside - rangy, lineout, heavy - Beirne, Lawes, Henderson, Itoje can all fit the mould to varying degrees
Openside - groundhog, link player who can carry - Curry, Watson, Tipuric
8 - mobile carrier - Faletau, Simmonds, Conan

Dear god I'm sticking up for Gatland, what's wrong with me.

To add some negativity, what kind of idiot sets out exactly what he wants from a blindside in advance. Surely taking Navidi / Underhill / Ritchie to offer contrasting styles in the back row would have made a lot more sense. What if we end up in a true breakdown battle, where the first to the ruck is the key - surely we needed one of the above 3 to give us the options

I can never make up my mind if I like Gatland or not, on the one hand he is a really good tour manager, he does have a great knack of bringing guys together and getting the best out of them and it is good how he isnt afraid to make unpopular decisions. On the other hand he does tend to favour Welsh and English players and possibly to a lesser extent Kiwis. Sometimes it also feels likes his teams take the long way round challenges too.

Would like to see Pat Lam get the job next time around, who knows we may even get a non Welsh captain.

mikey_dragon wrote:To quote a certain Scot on here... strewth, it beggars belief.... how some are still whinging about 2013, a tour we WON .

What would happen if we summon up the ghosts of the 2005 tour?

Curry has to be on the bench as back-row cover, he’s good at the breakdown.

Collapse - Pat Lam will be the next Wales coach, and if he’s good enough (probably) the next Lions coach, so we’ll probably keep seeing a Welsh captain .

At least you acknowledged that's the only reason for Jones.