England's Summer of Cricket 2021

First topic message reminder :

2nd June-14th June: Two tests v New Zealand

23rd June-26th June: Three T20s v Sri Lanka
29th June-4th July: Three ODIs v Sri Lanka

8th July-13th July: Three ODIs v Pakistan
16th July-20th July: Three T20s V Pakistan

4th August-14th September: Five Tests v India

I think Crawley will come good eventually, he is very young for a number 3, which tend to be more experienced campaigners. You all know we are now heading for another Root to bat at 3 debate!

Soul Requiem wrote:

alfie wrote:Ha...didn't take long to go downhill , did it ?

I half thought it might have been wise to pick Hameed in place of Crawley for this one as he seems to have pretty much lost all form lately. Pretty sure he will need to go back to the county game now and (hopefully) regain some touch. So unfortunate there is no county red ball stuff for a fair while...

Root will no doubt find this scoreline a little more familiar than the lunchtime mirage

I wasn't hugely enamoured by Crawley's 267 and did worry it would affect his immediate career after, there's was too much talk about being a long term fixture in the side and that he'd arrived. It felt set up to then see him fail, the way he carried himself after that innings was that of a man who thought he'd arrived.

In fairness to Crawley , although the 267 was an outlier , he had consistently improved his scores in each of his first eight ? innings I think. And the 267 , albeit against tired bowlers on a flat pitch , was a pretty good looking knock. I thought he looked to have a future - and he probably still does. Just needs to have a pause now , reset himself and hopefully come back a better player for the experience. Not everyone goes on without a serious dip right from the start.
Don't think the winter tours did him any favours. He was surprisingly lost against the spinners and that must have given his confidence a significant knock. Reckon the mental state is probably as important as his technical flaws.

https://twitter.com/ohlookitswill_/status/1402973478488358913?s=21

Noble work being done on Twitter. Taking out a players highest score, Crawley’s has the third biggest average differential between his actual average and average minus his highest score. A proper Root Maths player.

alfie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

alfie wrote:Ha...didn't take long to go downhill , did it ?

I half thought it might have been wise to pick Hameed in place of Crawley for this one as he seems to have pretty much lost all form lately. Pretty sure he will need to go back to the county game now and (hopefully) regain some touch. So unfortunate there is no county red ball stuff for a fair while...

Root will no doubt find this scoreline a little more familiar than the lunchtime mirage

I wasn't hugely enamoured by Crawley's 267 and did worry it would affect his immediate career after, there's was too much talk about being a long term fixture in the side and that he'd arrived. It felt set up to then see him fail, the way he carried himself after that innings was that of a man who thought he'd arrived.

In fairness to Crawley , although the 267 was an outlier , he had consistently improved his scores in each of his first eight ? innings I think. And the 267 , albeit against tired bowlers on a flat pitch , was a pretty good looking knock. I thought he looked to have a future - and he probably still does. Just needs to have a pause now , reset himself and hopefully come back a better player for the experience. Not everyone goes on without a serious dip right from the start.
Don't think the winter tours did him any favours. He was surprisingly lost against the spinners and that must have given his confidence a significant knock. Reckon the mental state is probably as important as his technical flaws.

There's definite talent there and I expect him to come good again but looks like a player who needs a period back at his county.

Batting looking difficult in this session...Root might be wondering if winning the toss was such a good idea after all.

Glad to see Pope seems to be avoiding flashy shots and defending his wicket grimly : he's overdue for something more than a quick twenty odd. It really should get easier as the afternoon goes on ; ball is 40 odd overs old now...

Fifty for Burns

Good solid effort. The one bright aspect so far for the home team. He has brought his form with him from Lord's.

alfie wrote:Fifty for Burns

Good solid effort. The one bright aspect so far for the home team. He has brought his form with him from Lord's.

He's been in good form all season to be fair. Consistently scored runs for Surrey. He must have a huge FC average in 2021.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

alfie wrote:Fifty for Burns

Good solid effort. The one bright aspect so far for the home team. He has brought his form with him from Lord's.

He's been in good form all season to be fair. Consistently scored runs for Surrey. He must have a huge FC average in 2021.

69.8 thus far.

Pope whilst hugely talented is looking a bit like Taylor/Vince mk3. at the moment.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

alfie wrote:Fifty for Burns

Good solid effort. The one bright aspect so far for the home team. He has brought his form with him from Lord's.

He's been in good form all season to be fair. Consistently scored runs for Surrey. He must have a huge FC average in 2021.

Probably points to the importance of selecting players when in form. I don't think Crawley had been making too many for his county this season , had he ? Perhaps had Foakes not been injured , Bracey might just have been preferred to him at three for these matches...

Oops...Pope gone after a rather subdued 19. : lost a bit of patience there against the spinner and rather threw it away. Trouble again at 127/4.

Frustrating for Pope. Got through the tough period, seemed to settle everything down, then gets out to an average ball when he tried to be a little more aggressive.

Quite the run of low scores in tests now. England back on the defensive for the last 25 minutes of this session - one more in that time and NZ will be confident of wrapping it up before stumps.

alfie wrote: I don't think Crawley had been making too many for his county this season , had he ?

Averaging 33 for Kent this season.

You go away for a bit, and return to find a collapse - how very England! Not entirely unsurprising with the inexperience and lack of form in the lineup, but disappointing nonetheless.

Do agree, Crawley could do with some time out of the limelight - albeit is going back to play on a wicket where 45 year old Darren Stevens runs through sides the best? Should get him a move to a proper county and proper wicket.
Think he's got the talent, just in a rut at the moment and seems scrambled mentally. Hopefully he can refind form, think his game is suited for Australian conditions (bit like Malan).

Pope could do without gifting his wicket to the awful spinner...

This middle order really is loose at the minute. Bowlers just have to stick at it and they will get themselves out. I think vs India we can only afford one of Crawley, Pope and Lawrence in the team. I think Pope is the best talent out of those, but Lawrence has a chance to make his own case

Soul Requiem wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

alfie wrote:Fifty for Burns

Good solid effort. The one bright aspect so far for the home team. He has brought his form with him from Lord's.

He's been in good form all season to be fair. Consistently scored runs for Surrey. He must have a huge FC average in 2021.

69.8 thus far.

Thanks, Soul.

About a half century higher than my 2021 average!

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

alfie wrote:Fifty for Burns

Good solid effort. The one bright aspect so far for the home team. He has brought his form with him from Lord's.

He's been in good form all season to be fair. Consistently scored runs for Surrey. He must have a huge FC average in 2021.

69.8 thus far.

Thanks, Soul.

About a half century higher than my 2021 average!

Still better than most of the England middle order

alfie wrote:Survived. 67/0 off 29.  Will take that for a start ; though I'd hope to see a little more enterprise after lunch.

Have to say I don't altogether mind the bowling selection , though it does make for a long thin tail : will be interesting to see the two fast men alongside the two Old Masters. In truth unless Woakes or Curran is around , England will always really struggle to fit Jack Leach into the attack so not totally shocked he's missed out today. And they were hardly going to push Bess in ahead of him today. Msp may well have a point in saying "don't totally write off Moeen "

Today might be the day Lawrence scores a 250 ball double ton to kick start his journey towards being the next Don Bradman, but I'd have picked Moeen Ali ahead of him for this side any day. Offers as much with the bat... Or if people have issue with him batting top 6, get Bracy to come in at 6 with Moeen at 7.

Ajaz Patel got the lucky breakthrough, Latham should straight away gone for a double pace attack against Lawrence. Wagner was rightly back on, probably Henry should have been given a go from the other end. New Zealand not being as ruthless as they should be. Patel is pretty average...

I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Apologies if it has been raised already but surely Malan is coming back into the thoughts of Silverwood and Root now?

199 the other day. Runs before that as well. Must be full of confidence being ranked no 1 in T20i cricket. Scored a Ashes ton in Australia already and Crawley regressing fast.

I can't think Malan would be any worse than Crawley/Pope/Lawrence at the moment. They might have a higher ceiling potentially but Malan has to be worth looking at again this summer.

Since 2016 Mo averages 20 in Test cricket with no centuries and only 5 fifties in 24 Tests and 46 innings. 3 of those fifties came in 2017 as well so even the best of his poor years since 2016 was a long while.

Given our lack spin options there's an argument Mo could still be useful in the right circumstances due to his very good strike rate but he is not a top 7 batsman anymore. I'd definitely bat Woakes ahead of him in Tests these days.

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

I'd have thought so. You could have something like:

Burns
Sibley
Malan
Root
Stokes
Lawrence/Pope
Buttler

That actually looks like a decent line up to me

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Apologies if it has been raised already but surely Malan is coming back into the thoughts of Silverwood and Root now?

199 the other day. Runs before that as well. Must be full of confidence being ranked no 1 in T20i cricket. Scored a Ashes ton in Australia already and Crawley regressing fast.

I can't think Malan would be any worse than Crawley/Pope/Lawrence at the moment. They might have a higher ceiling potentially but Malan has to be worth looking at again this summer.

I'd guess that Bracey is next cab off the rank for Crawley's number 3 spot with Malan having a shot after Bracey. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Malan play Test cricket again that's for sure.

Personally I'd pick Malan at 3 ahead of shoehorning Hameed in there. I really rate Hameed but definitely view him as an opener not a number 3.

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

I agree re Crawley and Lawrence. I suppose they are looking to give young players a chance, rather than a tried and diminishing talent. I don't though rule out Moeen as an attacking spinner/useful number 8 when Stokes returns. As a top order Test batsmen though, those days went by about 4 years ago

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

Hopefully never again in the test team, he's not good enough any more, this isn't 2014.

Malan is nearly 34 and I doubt the selectors will return to him unless they're absolutely desperate. I think Ballance has a higher chance of a recall than Malan.

152/4 at tea. England can still work this into a strong position at stumps, or it could all come apart very rapidly.

king_carlos wrote:Since 2016 Mo averages 20 in Test cricket with no centuries and only 5 fifties in 24 Tests and 46 innings. 3 of those fifties came in 2017 as well so even the best of his poor years since 2016 was a long while.

Given our lack spin options there's an argument Mo could still be useful in the right circumstances due to his very good strike rate but he is not a top 7 batsman anymore. I'd definitely bat Woakes ahead of him in Tests these days.

Hi Carlos,
Agree Moeen wasn't delivering with the bat in the latter part of his career before he opted out of the format for a while. I just was checking one of the scorecards from India's last tour, Moeen batted 3 in the last test of the series and scored a 50 there. He was sometimes batted 5, sometimes 3, 6, 8, 7, basically all over the place. And even in that India series, he had bowled them to a win, out-bowling Ravichandran Ashwin... Even at the time of his axing, he was still delivering with the ball, picking up regular wickets. So when you drop that sort of a player, you then bring in a spinner who can either offer control, or get you even more wickets. Neither Leach, nor Bess seem to fit the bill there.
Burns
Sibley
Hameed/Malan/Bracy
Root
Stokes
Buttler/Foakes
Ali
Curran/Woakes
Archer
Wood/Stone
Anderson/Broad

Seems pretty good to me in Australia. Anderson or Broad, one of them should play more often than not, and when conditions and circumstances demand, both of them play in place of one of the express bowlers.

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

Hopefully never again in the test team, he's not good enough any more, this isn't 2014.

As I wrote above, he was still bowling them to test wins in 2018. And the replacements are just too poor, unselectable more often than not!

msp83 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

Hopefully never again in the test team, he's not good enough any more, this isn't 2014.

As I wrote above, he was still bowling them to test wins in 2018. And the replacements are just too poor, unselectable more often than not!

Again that's three years ago, his recent form is awful. If it's likely to spin then Leach is the better option while Bess is now actually a better batsman.

He's a bits and pieces bowler who doesn't offer anything in either aspect any more.

Anyways on the game at hand, England won the first session, New Zealand took the 2nd. There were periods where New Zealand wasn't ruthless enough though even in that session. They needed to attack Lawrence from the word go. His debut in Sri Lanka, and those occasions when he looked at least like a half-baked test batter in India, he scored quickly, took his chances... The ball is getting older, Boult and Henry have had overs in their legs (doesn't matter to Wagner), and the Patel he'll be facing up to isn't named Axar but Ajaz. Conditions are pretty much flat despite that not unusual England collapse. Crawley seems shot, and Pope seems to be struggling to be anything more than someone who can score attractive 20s and 30s. This is Lawrence's chance...

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

Hopefully never again in the test team, he's not good enough any more, this isn't 2014.

As I wrote above, he was still bowling them to test wins in 2018. And the replacements are just too poor, unselectable more often than not!

Again that's three years ago, his recent form is awful. If it's likely to spin then Leach is the better option while Bess is now actually a better batsman.

He's a bits and pieces bowler who doesn't offer anything in either aspect any more.

Then why on earth are they not playing Leach or Bess? Root would rather risk an overrate ban than playing either of them!

Lawrence on to 20 of 25. Looks like its going to be his day today!

Lawrence bowls some spin doesn't he? Root didn't bowl him in the last game, but remember he did turn his arm over in India. Any chance he can be a decent parttime spin option?

Bit soon to be picking the next Test team... Fact is , no one since Root has really come in and written his name in stone in the batting order.  Brief good periods and decent efforts from all rounders is about it. Expect some changes before and during the India series...I am remaining open minded.

More concerned about this game for now.

Burns goes for 81 as I type , alas : though he's done his status in the team no harm today. 169/5 looks decidedly rocky...

Bracey will hope to do better than his debut innings. After him not much. Did I just see Stone padded up ?!

The one England couldn't afford to lose. Another good catch taken low down.

One more and they're into the tail.

Duty281 wrote:The one England couldn't afford to lose. Another good catch taken low down.

One more and they're into the tail.

Judging from Bracey's dismal exit , the tail was already in...

175/6

Oh feck, I'm heartbroken for Bracey. Another tidy catch.

I think 350 is the bare minimum on this. 400 probably par. England going to fall well short again and so many of the dismissals have been soft. It's frustrating to watch.

Rain bailed England out last time. Need the bowlers to do it this time.

Stone survives the hat-trick ball. Blimey this is a 90s/early 00s tail! Remember when Bresnan was at 8?

Can they even get 200 ? Don't judge a pitch until both sides have batted , etc...but this looks like being well under par ...

They must think Stone has more batting pedigree than has been advertised. Is he really a better bat than the three more experienced fellows still to come ? At least he's lasted five balls...we will see.

king_carlos wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Apologies if it has been raised already but surely Malan is coming back into the thoughts of Silverwood and Root now?

199 the other day. Runs before that as well. Must be full of confidence being ranked no 1 in T20i cricket. Scored a Ashes ton in Australia already and Crawley regressing fast.

I can't think Malan would be any worse than Crawley/Pope/Lawrence at the moment. They might have a higher ceiling potentially but Malan has to be worth looking at again this summer.

I'd guess that Bracey is next cab off the rank for Crawley's number 3 spot with Malan having a shot after Bracey. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Malan play Test cricket again that's for sure.

Personally I'd pick Malan at 3 ahead of shoehorning Hameed in there. I really rate Hameed but definitely view him as an opener not a number 3.

Care to reconsider that , perhaps ? Small sample ; but not very encouraging!

I am surprised about the nature of Bracey's two dismissals so far. From what I've read, and the little I've seen, I thought he was a capable defensive batsman - not the type to be chasing deliveries against the likes of Trent Boult from ball one!

Up to Lawrence to see if he can navigate his team to 250.

msp83 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

Hopefully never again in the test team, he's not good enough any more, this isn't 2014.

As I wrote above, he was still bowling them to test wins in 2018. And the replacements are just too poor, unselectable more often than not!

Again that's three years ago, his recent form is awful. If it's likely to spin then Leach is the better option while Bess is now actually a better batsman.

He's a bits and pieces bowler who doesn't offer anything in either aspect any more.

Then why on earth are they not playing Leach or Bess? Root would rather risk an overrate ban than playing either of them!

Stokes, Woakes and Curran are all unavailable for one reason or another. Were any of them playing then Leach or Bess would be playing unless you think a five man tail is viable?

Don't they say England start batting from 8? Last time, it was 8 to 11 who managed to eventually draw the game for them. Wood didn't contribute, but Robinson, Broad and Anderson were crucial. So New Zealand has a job on their hands now, has to bowl really really well, can't expect too many soft dismissals from now unlike from the top 7.
James Bracey's was a particularly poor one. He may yet have a bright test career ahead of him. Might come good... But this dismissal was just pretty poor.

Duty281 wrote:I am surprised about the nature of Bracey's two dismissals so far. From what I've read, and the little I've seen, I thought he was a capable defensive batsman - not the type to be chasing deliveries against the likes of Trent Boult from ball one!

Up to Lawrence to see if he can navigate his team to 250.

He may well be - and to be fair , anyone can have a couple of quick dismissals , though it is a rather unfortunate way to start your Test career. Batting in a Test Match is something different , of course. Probably points to nerves rather than policy...but it doesn't exactly scream "bat me at three next match" He might be another one who will revert to County action with at least an introduction to Tests behind him - hopefully to eventually come again a better player.

On the plus side , Lawrence has looked pretty good after a few nervous dabs early on. And Stone isn't throwing it away...

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

msp83 wrote:

VTR wrote:I'm not against Moeen, but wouldn't want him batting any higher than 8 these days. He would would an absolute liability against good quality seam bowling in the top 6

Crawley is an absolute liability against any test bowling at the moment, and Lawrence, despite his positive start here, doesn't look to me a test class batter capable of consistent performances. Too many issues with his technique, and the temperament didn't seem great while he was in India either. And on top of all that, England have serious balance issues, the 2 frontline spinners are not considered good enough to be part of a 4 man attack. If not under these circumstances, then when would they use someone like Moeen?

Hopefully never again in the test team, he's not good enough any more, this isn't 2014.

As I wrote above, he was still bowling them to test wins in 2018. And the replacements are just too poor, unselectable more often than not!

Again that's three years ago, his recent form is awful. If it's likely to spin then Leach is the better option while Bess is now actually a better batsman.

He's a bits and pieces bowler who doesn't offer anything in either aspect any more.

Then why on earth are they not playing Leach or Bess? Root would rather risk an overrate ban than playing either of them!

Stokes, Woakes and Curran are all unavailable for one reason or another. Were any of them playing then Leach or Bess would be playing unless you think a five man tail is viable?

Going by their top 7 batting standards, won't be the worst idea. Particularly as you are suggesting Bess is a better batter than Moeen.

Lawrence is beginning to bat like a test batter now. Was focused on placing the ball through gaps in the slips earlier, but is looking better now. Told you, going to be his day! Stone looking more solid than most of the top order barring the openers.

Stone certainly intends to sell his wicket more dearly than some of his betters...very useful partnership has at least got it beyond 200 which was looking precarious at one time...

Lawrence doing a good job here. Profiting a bit from an old ball and some of the support bowling perhaps ; vital he make it to the new ball as I don't think the rest of them would last long against it.

Should get the ninety overs in today , for a change.

This is a gutsy counter-attack. Some beautiful shots from Lawrence and Stone is defying his FC average.

Get the sense NZ thought these last few wickets would be a push-over. Certainly the intensity in the field seems to have dropped as they wait for the new ball.

Oops, bit of a jinx! Stone overly ambitious with a sweep. Double nelson strikes.

England's lower order yet again turning things around. Seemed 200 could be a struggle, now this partnership is closing in on 50. The new ball is not far away, if they manage to somehow survive Boult's initial burst, should be in with a good chance to get to 300.

One thing England batters have done well is negating Wagner with the old ball. He could be a real handful usually, but in this series so far, he hasn't been up to his best.
Will they do the unthinkable and drop Wagner for the WTC final? I think they should play all 4 of them, Boult, Southee, Wagner and Jamieson, and use Williamson and Ravindra as the spin option. Seems Ravindra is not in the scheme of things as of now, otherwise they'd have given him a run here. So it seems, they might have to bench one of the 4... Wagner's immediate form wouldn't be adding to his case though he should have plenty of credit in the bank. But it is a tough, tough call for Williamson and the management.