Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)

by R!skysports Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:23 am

Hi All

I thought would be quite fun to see who has put their had up for a test spot and if anyone has gone backwards. This is based just on Lions performances (and I know this will change (if) more matches are played

So putting hands straight up

H Watson
Bigger
Rory Sutherland
Hogg
Williams
Itoje
Luke Cowan Dickie
Harris
Adams
VdMerwe
Price

Walking to the door
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell

by LordDowlais Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:26 am

I know this might sound controversial, but I thought Adam Beard really put his hand up yesterday, I know it was crap opposition, but this is what we are basing everyone against aren't we ?

I think he could at least be a bench option.

Can't really argue against your list, although I think Conor Murray will start ahead of Price.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:32 am

I'd struggle based on performance. 3 games have been far too easy to properly judge. There have been a couple of average performances but they're barely having to raise their game and haven't been challenged. If we were playing South Africa to the standard shown so far anyone would do.

Vunipola can't scrummage well against anyone with a decent tight head. We've known that for the last 2 tours and he still gets picked somehow though.

by R!skysports Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd struggle based on performance. 3 games have been far too easy to properly judge. There have been a couple of average performances but they're barely having to raise their game and haven't been challenged. If we were playing South Africa to the standard shown so far anyone would do.

Vunipola can't scrummage well against anyone with a decent tight head. We've known that for the last 2 tours and he still gets picked somehow though.

maybe but it is still the most recent games they have played, so shows who is looking on the best form

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:17 pm

If pushed I'd go

Anyone bar Vunipola George furlong
Itoje Henderson
Beirne Watson
Simmonds
Price farrell henshaw Harris
Williams vdm
Hogg.

Owens lcd sinckler Hill Curry Murray Russell rees-zammit.

by TJ Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:48 pm

Furlong cowan dickie Sutherland
Itoje ( not sure)
Beirne Watson Simmonds
Price
Biggar
Henshaw Harris
Adams VDM Hogg

Very similar to you 7 1/2 - is that the first time we agree on anything? :-)

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:15 pm

We agree sometimes bar Vunipola farell and playing props the right way around TJ!

by TJ Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:23 pm

We agree on vunipola - I thought his performance in the last game was pure merde

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:24 pm

I was going for Billy. We both surely agree with the rest of the world bar Gatland and Jones that Vunipola is at best am impact prop.

by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:21 pm

Major names culled in McGeechan's latest Lions XV

McGeechan’s Lions Test XV:
15 Liam Williams
14 Anthony Watson
13 Chris Harris
12 Owen Farrell
11 Josh Adams
10 Dan Biggar
9 Conor Murray (capt)
1 Rory Sutherland
2 Jamie George
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Maro Itoje
5 Iain Henderson
6 Tadhg Beirne
7 Hamish Watson
8 Taulupe Faletau

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/major-names-culled-in-mcgeechans-latest-lions-xv/?fbclid=IwAR3oJ-LxJ4AZku44hMo9t6NUbEI8h4ovU2HEqagc2lpcT9rkWnnLWj4whgU

Not a huge amount to disagree

Hogg must be close, and will need a good game to push in
Murray not had a great tour so far and think we have fallen to the 'having a Captain' selected before form
Farrell not shown enough for me to be selected, but not really many 12s

by Guest Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:33 pm

I posted on the wrong thread, but here’s my take on McGeechan’s XV copied from the other one:

I think I’d prefer Ali Price at 9, Hogg at FB, VDM instead of Watson, and perhaps not Faletau at 8 unless he can show a lot more. The rest is there or thereabouts for me. Any of the hookers would be fine for me. Don’t think Wyn Jones would be bad at LH but I like Sutherland too

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:34 pm

R!skysports wrote:Major names culled in McGeechan's latest Lions XV

McGeechan’s Lions Test XV:
15 Liam Williams - not sure, need to see Hogg again
14 ~~Anthony Watson~~ DvdM
13 Chris Harris
12 ~~Owen Farrell~~ Henshaw (if fit)
11 Josh Adams
10 Dan Biggar
9 ~~Conor Murray (capt)~~ Price
1 Rory Sutherland
2 Jamie George
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 ~~Maro Itoje~~ Beirne
5 Iain Henderson (C)
6 ~~Tadhg Beirne~~ Navidi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Taulupe Faletau

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/major-names-culled-in-mcgeechans-latest-lions-xv/?fbclid=IwAR3oJ-LxJ4AZku44hMo9t6NUbEI8h4ovU2HEqagc2lpcT9rkWnnLWj4whgU

Not a huge amount to disagree

Hogg must be close, and will need a good game to push in
Murray not had a great tour so far and think we have fallen to the 'having a Captain' selected before form
Farrell not shown enough for me to be selected, but not really many 12s

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:42 pm

As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.

Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.

Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.

by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:58 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.

Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.

Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.

I hear that a lot. But have not really seen much to back that up (any more than the other backs)

He makes loads of cover tackles, jackles and put himself about

His defence is ok (not world class) but his attack is terrifyingly

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:03 pm

Positioning more than tackling, he is literally all over the place at times. I really like him but Kolbe will destroy him.

by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:14 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Positioning more than tackling, he is literally all over the place at times. I really like him but Kolbe will destroy him.

I’m fairness the whole back line was all over the place lol

The mainly scored over our mistakes and turn over ball which they took very well. Difficult to have a set defence with that

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:17 pm

This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:29 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.

Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.

Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.

His defence is better than LRZ or Watson. Watson let in two tries with poor position against the sharks.

go look at 6N stats - its a total myth.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:30 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.

Oh I have done. I have been watching him for 3 years. His defense is not the strongest but he is much better than LRZ or Watson

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:33 pm

TJ wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.

Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.

Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.

His defence is better than LRZ or Watson. Watson let in two tries with poor position against the sharks.

go look at 6N stats - its a total myth.

No it's not.

You don't register a missed tackle if you're not even in a position to attempt the tackle. He's a defensive liability and will not start a test....he may offer a bench impact, although I doubt it.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:33 pm

TJ wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.

Oh I have done. I have been watching him for 3 years. His defense is not the strongest but he is much better than LRZ or Watson

It's literally not a patch on either of those.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:35 pm

having said that my back 3 would be adams, williams and Hogg. LRZ or DVDM as sub perhaps

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:37 pm

I'd go similar....I imagine it will be Adams/Hogg/Watson with Williams on the bench.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:38 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
TJ wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.

Oh I have done. I have been watching him for 3 years. His defense is not the strongest but he is much better than LRZ or Watson

It's literally not a patch on either of those.

Oh dear - go watch the last lions game again Go look at the stats from the 6N. LRZ misses more tackles than he makes,, watson positing for the second sharks try was so poor

You have made the mistake of accepting myths that build up around players without actually watching them

I have been watching Duhan play for the last 3 years and seen every game he has played. He is not a fabulous defender but he is miles better than Watson or LRZ

Go watch some games and look at some stats

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:44 pm

No need to be patronising TJ.

Stats, stats,stats....stats don't show poor positioning do they? If a player doesn't get in the the position to make a tackle....he can't miss it....what's difficult here?

DVDM has awful positioning....Kolbe would torture him. I find it interesting that you've never noticed this, its pretty common knowledge he struggles here.

Watch him carefully, you may be surprised.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:44 pm

Stats - 6 nations. DVDM - 13 tackles made, 3 missed one turnover in the tackle less than 1 in 4 missed
LRZ 28 made 9 missed no turnovers 1 in 3 missed
Watson 15 made 7 missed no turnovers 1 in 2 missed

then you add to that that DVDM made more yards, beat more players and scored more tries.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:45 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No need to be patronising TJ.

Stats, stats,stats....stats don't show poor positioning do they? If a player doesn't get in the the position to make a tackle....he can't miss it, do you understand this?

DVDM has awful positioning....Kolbe would torture him. I find it interesting that you've never noticed this, its pretty common knowledge he struggles here.

Watch him carefully, you may be surprised.

Oh I have watched him carefully for 3 years

he made one huge clanger in the six nations. He is not a weak defender. Its a myth like Finn is a flake and Mish is too small

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:46 pm

Positioning.......the stats don't have context!

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:49 pm

Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored

DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless

by lostinwales Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:51 pm

TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored

DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless

Which is the same criteria you are using for Watson.

by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:54 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored

DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless

Which is the same criteria you are using for Watson.

Not really as he backed it up with the 6 nations where he missed a bucket load

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:59 pm

Exactly - watson missed half his tackles off a similar number to DVDN who missed 1 in 4

by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:03 pm

Anyway. I think you need to look at how he would fit into the game plan. I think he will be on the bench as you can not really leave off that much of a destructive runner totally

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:08 pm

TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored

DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless

ok then......now I know you're messing with me.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:28 pm

Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.

Yes I am - On what I have seen. Last 6 N only made half his tackles and was miles out of position for the sharks tries> Gatland agrees :-) ( sort of)

Question to Gatland: is this the most competitive squad in your Lions experiences?

“Yes, absolutely.

“I thought Duhan van der Merwe was excellent tonight. Anthony was great on attack. Couple of defensive lapses we need to sort out with him. Liam Williams was good.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:47 pm

R!skysports wrote:Anyway. I think you need to look at how he would fit into the game plan. I think he will be on the bench as you can not really leave off that much of a destructive runner totally

trouble is if yo have a 6 2 split you need a SH and an all rounder on the bench. all rounder DVDM is not

Back 3 is a real selection headache with at least 5 guys worthy of a place and all have their flaws but all cracking players.

by jimbopip Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:51 pm

R!skysports wrote:Hi All

I thought would be quite fun to see who has put their had up for a test spot and if anyone has gone backwards. This is based just on Lions performances (and I know this will change (if) more matches are played

So putting hands straight up

H Watson
Bigger
Rory Sutherland
Hogg
Williams
Itoje
Luke Cowan Dickie
Harris
Adams
VdMerwe
Price

Walking very slowly to the door
Vunipola

Fixed that for you.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:52 pm

the OP also said "on tour form" On what we have seen so far its Adams and DVDM on what they have shown us on this tour.

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:00 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored

DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless

ok then......now I know you're messing with me.

Sarge
He waasn't messing with you, he saw it (the match) for what it was

Watson was fundamentally at fault for the first two Sharks tries
First try was a semi drift attack, mistake by Daly but Watson was ahead of Gareth Davies even at that point, terrible positioning but to add insult to injury he was sleeping even a couple of seconds later as the Sharks offloaded with Biggar, Hamish and Conan defending the line against the 9, 10 14 and 15 with Watson still further upfield, even though it looked like Watson was jogging as the Sharks 9, 14 and 15 were getting into top gear, he was absolutely burnt for pace by all three of the Sharks backs, even Hamish was quicker than him

Second try, on the drift attack again, Lions mistake, Watson again ahead of the Lions SH Davies!, no defence of the wing-half sector, he had to turn on his heels by which time Sanjay was left marking the right wing and FB areas

by Soul Requiem Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.

I sometimes wonder why we bother watching rugby any more, may as well just base opinions on stats and nothing else. DVDM is an exciting runner but as Sgt has said numerous times his defensive positioning is terrible and no stat will alter that.

by tigertattie Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 pm

I live in the scrums, sometimes I wait where the last one was and hope the next one happens there also, but even I know that DVDM isn’t that bad a defender. Adams is probably the only winger that is on tour that is stronger defensively.

Having said that, Chris “the hardest working man in world rugby” Harris is an absolute defensive machine. If you play Duhan outside a centre he’s not used to he may not be as comfortable. Likewise he gets a lot of help from Hogg.

A lot of these 50/50 calls could be based on how that player plays with the nailed on starters.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:15 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.

I sometimes wonder why we bother watching rugby any more, may as well just base opinions on stats and nothing else. DVDM is an exciting runner but as Sgt has said numerous times his defensive positioning is terrible and no stat will alter that.

Wiothout evidence tho its just an assertion - and as above in the tour so far watson has med far worse and more costly positioning errors

Yes its a weak point of Duhans and yes in the 6N he dropped a huge clanger but on this tour - zero evidence

Its simply ( IMO ) another of those myths that build up around players that has a small basis in truth but gets built up to something it isnt

What evidence do yo have for this lack of defensive positioning?

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:19 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.

I sometimes wonder why we bother watching rugby any more, may as well just base opinions on stats and nothing else. DVDM is an exciting runner but as Sgt has said numerous times his defensive positioning is terrible and no stat will alter that.

Ok forget about stats, provide evidence to qualify both your sweeping statements about this terrible defensive positioning of DvdM

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:23 pm

Flyhalf - dreadful clangor in the 6 N - one.

I wonder how many games they have seen him play. Yo have to remember he only has half a dozen caps. Stepping up from the pro 14 to internationals is a big step and he will improve - as we have seen already in this series IMO

by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:29 pm

TJ wrote:Flyhalf - dreadful clangor in the 6 N - one.

I wonder how many games they have seen him play. Yo have to remember he only has half a dozen caps. Stepping up from the pro 14 to internationals is a big step and he will improve - as we have seen already in this series IMO

Compadre, it wasn't a huge error, he was trying to cover both wing and OC, it was built up to be more than it was, not really any worse that Watson yesterday. All this perceived "poor positioning" was built on that. He's never going to be the best but he's not the poor defender that the "herd mentality" cling onto

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:36 pm

He has terrible defensive positioning, it's his major flaw. Some of the positions he ends up in are truly odd.

The assumption that we've has not seen him play because we don't rate his defence is quite comical.

To be fair, if he had a sound defence, he'd probably be the best wing in the world.

by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:43 pm

Fly half - IMO it wad a huge clanger - out of position then dived in and was stepped. Really two errors

Sgt - so how much have you seen him play and can you describe or point to a bit of video of his positioning being so poor?

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:21 pm

Go back as far as the Japan game were Matsushima turned him inside out on a number of occasions......hardly Kolbe.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:29 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He has terrible defensive positioning, it's his major flaw. Some of the positions he ends up in are truly odd.

The assumption that we've has not seen him play because we don't rate his defence is quite comical.

To be fair, if he had a sound defence, he'd probably be the best wing in the world.

Er no on the last point.

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