South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

Old Man wrote:Jaden Hendrikse has been called into the Bok squad as there is concern over Faf de Klerk injury.

Hendrikse has been performing well for the Sharks and is an exciting youngster.

I doubt he will get game time as Reinach and Jantjies are in line before him.

Mr Bounce wrote:If I were the one making changes, I'd go for something a little bit different. What is the point of having great expansive players on the tour if they won't be used?? I would be looking to replace the entire back 3 with Adams at 11, Williams at 15 and LRZ at 14. They are a cracking unit, safe under the high ball and the two wingers have genuine pace and a nose for the try line. Both Duhan and Hogg were poor in the air.

Price has to start again at 9. I felt that Murray was so one-dimensionally slow we barely had any likelihood of quick ball. The pack were ok, if a little flat, so why not inject some major pace by having Simmonds start at 8?

And as for the 10s, starting Smith or Russell has the potential to inject a huge amount of pace and intrigue to the game.

It won't happen, but if we use the same tactics as Saturday, it'll be another 15-20 point loss, so we may as well roll the dice.

BigGee wrote:

Old Man wrote:Jaden Hendrikse has been called into the Bok squad as there is concern over Faf de Klerk injury.

Hendrikse has been performing well for the Sharks and is an exciting youngster.

I doubt he will get game time as Reinach and Jantjies are in line before him.

Any news on PSDT?

He will be a big miss if out and it did not look very promising for him.

sensisball wrote:Old man
I guess if PSdT is unavailable then Elstad would start at blindside? He isn't as athletic as Du Toit, (who is?), but he is another excellent lineout option and weighing around 120 kg he hits hard in the tackle. A quality defender and a good ball carrier.
Think the Boks changes for yesterday were spot on: start best scrummaging front row, sap the legs out of the Lions front 5 and then bring on the more dynamic, mobile front row to really power the rolling maul and dominate the lineout with De Jager.
Lot of head scratching for Gatland this week.

BigGee wrote:Well it turns out that the only citing from the match is a biting charge against Kyle Sinklair

No idea when that was meant to have hsppened?

hugehandoff wrote:

Northgrill wrote:The irony of Itoje kneeling before the game for a protest that was sparked by a cop kneeling on someones neck.

Totally ridiculous comment. No comparison at all. This is a rugby match and of course no way he knelt on his neck on purpose. He should still have been punished for this as clearly dangerous but careless and not malicious. I don’t see him as a dirty player just a hard one.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

BigGee wrote:Well it turns out that the only citing from the match is a biting charge against Kyle Sinklair

No idea when that was meant to have hsppened?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

The Oracle wrote:On the Biggar ‘dive’, I’ve seen another angle and the barge in his back actually looked like it made him clash heads with Furlong.  I’m not commenting on the barge itself, but just thinking that perhaps the clash of heads is why he went down so easily?  Not sure it was pure theatrics.  

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

Old Man wrote:

The Oracle wrote:On the Biggar ‘dive’, I’ve seen another angle and the barge in his back actually looked like it made him clash heads with Furlong.  I’m not commenting on the barge itself, but just thinking that perhaps the clash of heads is why he went down so easily?  Not sure it was pure theatrics.  

He grabbed his side as if he was shot in the back

Old Man wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

And what is the middle ground? You have 30 supremely talented athletes playing at a physicality level never seen before in a highly competitive sporting environment playing a contact sport. How do you find a middle ground that does not compromise injuries?

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

And what is the middle ground? You have 30 supremely talented athletes playing at a physicality level never seen before in a highly competitive sporting environment playing a contact sport. How do you find a middle ground that does not compromise injuries?

Tackling safely and penalising dangerous play, obvs.  Like they do now. No need to remove the contact completely.

mikey_dragon wrote:I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Old Man: What I meant to say was Rugby should go back to using skills, pace, purpose and persevernce and power to out play the opposition, not try and create a situation where the opposition team is reduced in the number of players.

Old Man wrote:Willie le Roux gets taken in the air, no card, Kolbe takes Murray in the air, yellow card. No consistency.

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

Don’t generalise. The majority of SA fans don’t condone foul play, in fact I personally don’t know any SA who does.

If Kolbe was foul play, then so was Watson, yet you won’t admit that.

Responding with “if that is how the Lions got to play, then it is how they gotto play” is simply nonsense. They have already played like that and got away with more than Kolbe did.

Even Kolbe was taken out in the Air, fell on his back, and summarily dragged to his feet by Vunipola. So lets stop playing the game of who is worse, it isn’t going to solve anything.

Duty281 wrote:

Old Man wrote:Willie le Roux gets taken in the air, no card, Kolbe takes Murray in the air, yellow card. No consistency.

How the player is taken out and where he lands is the key factor, not just being taken in the air.

Biggar was tackled in the air, but because he landed safely and the tackle in question was only fractionally mis-timed it merited no further sanction, just a penalty. Murray was tackled in the air dangerously and recklessly and he landed on his head (not his back). That's where the differences arise in sanctions.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

Don’t generalise. The majority of SA fans don’t condone foul play, in fact I personally don’t know any SA who does.

If Kolbe was foul play, then so was Watson, yet you won’t admit that.

Responding with “if that is how the Lions got to play, then it is how they gotto play” is simply nonsense. They have already played like that and got away with more than Kolbe did.

Even Kolbe was taken out in the Air, fell on his back, and summarily dragged to his feet by Vunipola. So lets stop playing the game of who is worse, it isn’t going to solve anything.

Literally everyone I've seen from SA is waving it on.

We can argue back and fourth about incidents yes, but the most clear and obvious dangerous play for me was Kolbe taking out Murray in the air. There is no clearer red card.

I wasn't entirely sure if a trip is a red card, if that's what you are referring to. If so then yeah, he had to go. It just goes to show how poor the officials were, right?

The worst thing about the whole situation is Rassie going unpunished for bringing the game into disrepute, and what he did seemed to have influenced ref's into accepting dangerous play. As much as I like to criticise ref's I really have no clue what spurred Rassie to go on such a rant. There was no one-side officiating in the first test. If this is acceptable and it goes on to be the norm, it's a lot more dangerous than what Kolbe did. I guess coaches with higher status can do these things, it's not acceptable.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, biting, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, biting, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

R!skysports wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, biting, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

Sadly that is not really what most want.

Deliberate foul play that is dangerous should get the highest sanction

Accidentally foul play should be looked at and try to be sympathetic to the game.

However to say get rid of cards is really short sighted when our sport is going through a long term injury crises with ex players getting brain damage and life threatening injuries.

We need
To make the sport safe and that means there needs
To be a real deterrent to dangerous play. Sadly in the 2nd test that was thrown out the window and the red lost control (of both sides)

SA won by being the better side and fully deserved it.

But that does not negate the fact that there dangerous play that was ignored

Soul Requiem wrote:Beard in for Itoje, that's hilarious.

There was no ignored Dangerous play.

TJ wrote:

There was no ignored Dangerous play.

Most of the bleating about cards comes from folk who do not understand the laws and guidance.  It was a very difficult game to referee, there are process in place to look at stuff, they followed the process properly to arrive at the right decisions.

The whineing and whinging about the ref on here is frankly pathetic