South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August

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SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 7th August
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 02:00 Australia  
Cape Town Stadium
Sky Sports Main Event

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA
A very large bunch of blokes.

WAZZER'S WIZARDS

15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby, Wales) #836
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Wyn Jones (Scarlets, Wales) #842
02. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales) #852
20. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Finn Russell (Racing 92, Scotland) #835
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

Oakdene wrote:Sorry am I reading that right? Mostert at 7?

SA play 6 and 7 the opposite way around to us.

Kollisi at 6 is the OS!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sinckler's hearing started at 9 and still no news. Mad.

Takes a while to go through it all doesn't it. As long as he denies anything can't see anything coming of it as there's nothing to see on the video.

Someone must have seen something, or else he would not have been cited in the first place. They have access to a lot more angels than we have.

I would be looking to see if there is any physical evidence of a bite as a starting point.

This will be a very nervous time for Sinklair, not only potentially missing the test, but his whole reputation on the line!

Denial is always the best option no matter what. The citing officers must have been searching ages as they completely forgot to check the guys in green.

Denial certainly is his best option in this case. Never mind some time off for pleading guilty, he would be trashed in any case!

BigGee wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Sorry am I reading that right? Mostert at 7?

SA play 6 and 7 the opposite way around to us.

Kollisi at 6 is the OS!

Of course, silly me!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sinckler's hearing started at 9 and still no news. Mad.

Takes a while to go through it all doesn't it. As long as he denies anything can't see anything coming of it as there's nothing to see on the video.

Someone must have seen something, or else he would not have been cited in the first place. They have access to a lot more angels than we have.

I would be looking to see if there is any physical evidence of a bite as a starting point.

This will be a very nervous time for Sinklair, not only potentially missing the test, but his whole reputation on the line!

Denial is always the best option no matter what. The citing officers must have been searching ages as they completely forgot to check the guys in green.

Well they seem to have forgotten the red players from game 1

Oakdene wrote:Sorry am I reading that right? Mostert at 7?

SA play opposite numbers so he’s really at 6, so just the 6 locks on the pitch to start….

protea438 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sinckler's hearing started at 9 and still no news. Mad.

Takes a while to go through it all doesn't it. As long as he denies anything can't see anything coming of it as there's nothing to see on the video.

Someone must have seen something, or else he would not have been cited in the first place. They have access to a lot more angels than we have.

I would be looking to see if there is any physical evidence of a bite as a starting point.

This will be a very nervous time for Sinklair, not only potentially missing the test, but his whole reputation on the line!

Denial is always the best option no matter what. The citing officers must have been searching ages as they completely forgot to check the guys in green.

Well they seem to have forgotten the red players from game 1

The red players? You mean Kitshoff?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

protea438 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sinckler's hearing started at 9 and still no news. Mad.

Takes a while to go through it all doesn't it. As long as he denies anything can't see anything coming of it as there's nothing to see on the video.

Someone must have seen something, or else he would not have been cited in the first place. They have access to a lot more angels than we have.

I would be looking to see if there is any physical evidence of a bite as a starting point.

This will be a very nervous time for Sinklair, not only potentially missing the test, but his whole reputation on the line!

Denial is always the best option no matter what. The citing officers must have been searching ages as they completely forgot to check the guys in green.

Well they seem to have forgotten the red players from game 1

The red players? You mean Kitshoff?

I said red not ginger, there is only one team that wears red

Heaf wrote:Any more from the accusation against Hogg?

No other citings from Test 2 (other than Sinckler's), so nothing more doing.

protea438 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

protea438 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sinckler's hearing started at 9 and still no news. Mad.

Takes a while to go through it all doesn't it. As long as he denies anything can't see anything coming of it as there's nothing to see on the video.

Someone must have seen something, or else he would not have been cited in the first place. They have access to a lot more angels than we have.

I would be looking to see if there is any physical evidence of a bite as a starting point.

This will be a very nervous time for Sinklair, not only potentially missing the test, but his whole reputation on the line!

Denial is always the best option no matter what. The citing officers must have been searching ages as they completely forgot to check the guys in green.

Well they seem to have forgotten the red players from game 1

The red players? You mean Kitshoff?

I said red not ginger, there is only one team that wears red

Red head. Come on know your porn categories.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit of a disappointing team that. Not sure sticking with Lawes and Jones is going to suddenly change the impact at the breakdown. At least we've got a lock on the bench to come on and the hope of Russell. By then it may just have got to the stage of throw the ball and hope.

Given the history between gats and Dancer I wouldn't be surprised if after 68 minutes and we're 23 points behind Gats turns to him and says it's time to go on and Finn shrugs and says his achilles tendon has flared up and he thinks it's best to go and put some ice on it for fifteen minutes or so. And I wouldn't blame him at all if he did.

Also, Farrell, Hogg, Harris and Watson dropped from the 23 IF they had had plenty of ball and done nothing that would be fine...

Hamish Watson, Taidgh Beirne not in the 23... when we were comprehensively spanked at the breakdown last week.

I'll stop now. It's all too much.

flyhalffactory wrote:I was speaking to a couple of my SA managers in the office in 2019 after the WC victory, they said they targeted the breakdown because they create 9-10% of tries from it. Looking at our potential Lions (I said it before the Lions squad was selected to get on the plane and I haven't deviated because we are still in the same position) we needed to win the breakdown (turnovers, rucks and especially the mauls) and the aerial, before we can create a platform for the backs.

We did ok in the 1st 40 mins but we weren't that brilliant as some seem to allude to. Reference the forwards we had a 100% tackle efficiency which was pleasing but its not going to win you the game, unfortunately Gats went with a defensive and offensive lock unit instead of right/left and whilst it was no surprise AWJ completed (the defensive) 15 tackles to Itojes 5, what was worrying he carried 8 times to Itojes 4 and made 7 metres to Itojes 2, Itoje was there to be dominant on the front foot, to compete at the breakdown and win the aerial battle.
So......insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
I'd doubt very much if Gats will change the engine room or BR or even bring in Hamish, whilst SA will probably strengthen their pack at least

Interesting.

Oh and imagine if AWJ was on the wrong end of the stats (which he hasn't been all tour), we'd just be reading a number of personal comments against him on here. Itoje gets a free pass...


I wouldn't have dropped Itoje anyway for what he does everywhere else on the pitch. He is usually an effective carrier so that is a bit surprising. I'm sure he will improve this weekend. I would have chosen Beirne over Lawes though, but Gatland must have wanted one of his taller players starting. A bit harsh on some players as they were good enough to get in but oh well.

mikey_dragon wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:I was speaking to a couple of my SA managers in the office in 2019 after the WC victory, they said they targeted the breakdown because they create 9-10% of tries from it. Looking at our potential Lions (I said it before the Lions squad was selected to get on the plane and I haven't deviated because we are still in the same position) we needed to win the breakdown (turnovers, rucks and especially the mauls) and the aerial, before we can create a platform for the backs.

We did ok in the 1st 40 mins but we weren't that brilliant as some seem to allude to. Reference the forwards we had a 100% tackle efficiency which was pleasing but its not going to win you the game, unfortunately Gats went with a defensive and offensive lock unit instead of right/left and whilst it was no surprise AWJ completed (the defensive) 15 tackles to Itojes 5, what was worrying he carried 8 times to Itojes 4 and made 7 metres to Itojes 2, Itoje was there to be dominant on the front foot, to compete at the breakdown and win the aerial battle.
So......insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
I'd doubt very much if Gats will change the engine room or BR or even bring in Hamish, whilst SA will probably strengthen their pack at least

Interesting.

Oh and imagine if AWJ was on the wrong end of the stats (which he hasn't been all tour), we'd just be reading a number of personal comments against him on here. Itoje gets a free pass...


I wouldn't have dropped Itoje anyway for what he does everywhere else on the pitch. He is usually an effective carrier so that is a bit surprising. I'm sure he will improve this weekend. I would have chosen Beirne over Lawes though, but Gatland must have wanted one of his taller players starting. A bit harsh on some players as they were good enough to get in but oh well.

Not sure Itoje gets a free pass. Theres certainly a lot of criticism comes his way. He has also been the best Lions player over the tests. Low bar in the second one I admit, but to me he was the difference between the Lions winning and losing that first test with the influence he had.

And was the not 40 or 50 kicks in the game? I would say the aerial battle has been just as important as the breakdown and how VDM is still there after letting the ball bounce or completely running passed it is a mystery.

Where do these individual stats for matches come from? Can anyone give me a link?

As an aside, I'm really hoping that Wyn Jones if fit this weekend & has a stormer. He really deserves it.

Those of you not familiar with the Scottish legal system may not realise that as well as NOt Guily and Guilty there is also the verdict of Not Proven. Which basically means that "No you're not innocent...but the prosecution were unable to provide compelling enough evidence to convict so we have to let you go."

Kyle Sinkler has been cleared to play on Saturday and the judgement seems to say Not Proven. I can't be bothered finding it to cut and paste but that's how it read to me. Rassie will love it.

Did Mostert ever say "Sinckler bit me" to the disciplinary panel? That is, did he follow up his on pitch claim of "I think I've been bitten" with a specific accusation?

The statement below doesn't mention anything about testimony from Mostert.

"British & Irish Lions player Kyle Sinckler appeared before an independent judicial committee via video link having been cited for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.12 (biting) during the British & Irish Lions’ second test against South Africa on 31 July, 2021.

"The independent Disciplinary Committee chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia), joined by former international players David Croft and John Langford (both Australia), considered all the available evidence, including multiple broadcast angles, submissions from the player and his representative and expert witness testimony.

"The player denied that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card. Having reviewed all the evidence, the committee deemed that on the balance of probabilities, it could not be satisfied that the player committed an act of foul play. On that basis, the committee dismissed the citing and the player is free to play again immediately."

MichaelT wrote:

Where do these individual stats for matches come from? Can anyone give me a link?

First test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593010&league=289234

Second test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593817&league=268565

I am sure from memory, that there are better sites than this for stats, but this is what I use.

RiscaGame wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

Where do these individual stats for matches come from? Can anyone give me a link?

First test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593010&league=289234

Second test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593817&league=268565

I am sure from memory, that there are better sites than this for stats, but this is what I use.

Metres run - Mako 3rd with 15m and top of defenders beaten (4)

I am pleased for Sinklair, no player would want that hanging over him and it seemed very far fetchrd that he would even think about it.

He had his hot headed moments when younger but seems to have grown up a lot.

Rugby Fan wrote:Did Mostert ever say "Sinckler bit me" to the disciplinary panel? That is, did he follow up his on pitch claim of "I think I've been bitten" with a specific accusation?

The statement below doesn't mention anything about testimony from Mostert.

"British & Irish Lions player Kyle Sinckler appeared before an independent judicial committee via video link having been cited for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.12 (biting) during the British & Irish Lions’ second test against South Africa on 31 July, 2021.

"The independent Disciplinary Committee chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia), joined by former international players David Croft and John Langford (both Australia), considered all the available evidence, including multiple broadcast angles, submissions from the player and his representative and expert witness testimony.

"The player denied that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card. Having reviewed all the evidence, the committee deemed that on the balance of probabilities, it could not be satisfied that the player committed an act of foul play. On that basis, the committee dismissed the citing and the player is free to play again immediately."

who writes this stuff? “The preponderance of evidence is apparently indicative the probability of the allegation de facto may or may not have happened”.

RiscaGame wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

Where do these individual stats for matches come from? Can anyone give me a link?

First test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593010&league=289234

Second test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593817&league=268565

I am sure from memory, that there are better sites than this for stats, but this is what I use.

Thanks very much.

Tells quite a picture.

jimbopip wrote:Those of you not familiar with the Scottish legal system may not realise that as well as NOt Guily and Guilty there is also the verdict of Not Proven. Which basically means that "No you're not innocent...but the prosecution were unable to provide compelling enough evidence to convict so we have to let you go."

Kyle Sinkler has been cleared to play on Saturday and the judgement seems to say Not Proven. I can't be bothered finding it to cut and paste but that's how it read to me. Rassie will love it.

This is civil stuff Jim

The balance of probability, is a much lower bar than beyond reasonable doubt.

They just had to have a feeling he did it to say guilty.

To me there is no third verdict here. He is not guilty.

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sinckler's hearing started at 9 and still no news. Mad.

Takes a while to go through it all doesn't it. As long as he denies anything can't see anything coming of it as there's nothing to see on the video.

Someone must have seen something, or else he would not have been cited in the first place. They have access to a lot more angels than we have.

I would be looking to see if there is any physical evidence of a bite as a starting point.

This will be a very nervous time for Sinklair, not only potentially missing the test, but his whole reputation on the line!

Denial is always the best option no matter what. The citing officers must have been searching ages as they completely forgot to check the guys in green.

Denial certainly is his best option in this case. Never mind some time off for pleading guilty, he would be trashed in any case!

He could always pull a Gazza again , that might get him off.

The best option really is to not bite people in the first place. It really was a tasty game.

BigGee wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Those of you not familiar with the Scottish legal system may not realise that as well as NOt Guily and Guilty there is also the verdict of Not Proven. Which basically means that "No you're not innocent...but the prosecution were unable to provide compelling enough evidence to convict so we have to let you go."

Kyle Sinkler has been cleared to play on Saturday and the judgement seems to say Not Proven. I can't be bothered finding it to cut and paste but that's how it read to me. Rassie will love it.

This is civil stuff Jim

The balance of probability, is a much lower bar than beyond reasonable doubt.

They just had to have a feeling he did it to say guilty.

To me there is no third verdict here. He is not guilty.

There are two important factors here Gee.

Firstly, a very aggrieved Bok ran over to the touch judge claiming he had been bitten. If the panel decided that he most certainly, 100%, had not been bitten then the Bok was deliberately lying in order to have Sinkler sent off. If there's no evidence of a bite then Mostert should be cited.
Secondly, and much more importantly, if Sinkler was banned then Ragnar would be on the bench and he's a much better prop.

MichaelT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:I was speaking to a couple of my SA managers in the office in 2019 after the WC victory, they said they targeted the breakdown because they create 9-10% of tries from it. Looking at our potential Lions (I said it before the Lions squad was selected to get on the plane and I haven't deviated because we are still in the same position) we needed to win the breakdown (turnovers, rucks and especially the mauls) and the aerial, before we can create a platform for the backs.

We did ok in the 1st 40 mins but we weren't that brilliant as some seem to allude to. Reference the forwards we had a 100% tackle efficiency which was pleasing but its not going to win you the game, unfortunately Gats went with a defensive and offensive lock unit instead of right/left and whilst it was no surprise AWJ completed (the defensive) 15 tackles to Itojes 5, what was worrying he carried 8 times to Itojes 4 and made 7 metres to Itojes 2, Itoje was there to be dominant on the front foot, to compete at the breakdown and win the aerial battle.
So......insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
I'd doubt very much if Gats will change the engine room or BR or even bring in Hamish, whilst SA will probably strengthen their pack at least

Interesting.

Oh and imagine if AWJ was on the wrong end of the stats (which he hasn't been all tour), we'd just be reading a number of personal comments against him on here. Itoje gets a free pass...


I wouldn't have dropped Itoje anyway for what he does everywhere else on the pitch. He is usually an effective carrier so that is a bit surprising. I'm sure he will improve this weekend. I would have chosen Beirne over Lawes though, but Gatland must have wanted one of his taller players starting. A bit harsh on some players as they were good enough to get in but oh well.

Not sure Itoje gets a free pass. Theres certainly a lot of criticism comes his way. He has also been the best Lions player over the tests. Low bar in the second one I admit, but to me he was the difference between the Lions winning and losing that first test with the influence he had.

And was the not 40 or 50 kicks in the game? I would say the aerial battle has been just as important as the breakdown and how VDM is still there after letting the ball bounce or completely running passed it is a mystery.

Where do these individual stats for matches come from? Can anyone give me a link?

There are a number of sites that I normally use but unfortunately I cannae see much on the Lions this time but ESPN have got a lot more accurate but you can also use the official Lions website. Regarding any particular Lions player being "the best" actually depends on what you mean by "best", if it's just your opinion then fine but always good to qualify it by facts, figures and instances.
If you are basing on the media platforms then it depends if it's the English platforms or others. I could produce a dozen rankings that would prove your narrative but many more that certainly wouldn't.

flyhalffactory wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:I was speaking to a couple of my SA managers in the office in 2019 after the WC victory, they said they targeted the breakdown because they create 9-10% of tries from it. Looking at our potential Lions (I said it before the Lions squad was selected to get on the plane and I haven't deviated because we are still in the same position) we needed to win the breakdown (turnovers, rucks and especially the mauls) and the aerial, before we can create a platform for the backs.

We did ok in the 1st 40 mins but we weren't that brilliant as some seem to allude to. Reference the forwards we had a 100% tackle efficiency which was pleasing but its not going to win you the game, unfortunately Gats went with a defensive and offensive lock unit instead of right/left and whilst it was no surprise AWJ completed (the defensive) 15 tackles to Itojes 5, what was worrying he carried 8 times to Itojes 4 and made 7 metres to Itojes 2, Itoje was there to be dominant on the front foot, to compete at the breakdown and win the aerial battle.
So......insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
I'd doubt very much if Gats will change the engine room or BR or even bring in Hamish, whilst SA will probably strengthen their pack at least

Interesting.

Oh and imagine if AWJ was on the wrong end of the stats (which he hasn't been all tour), we'd just be reading a number of personal comments against him on here. Itoje gets a free pass...


I wouldn't have dropped Itoje anyway for what he does everywhere else on the pitch. He is usually an effective carrier so that is a bit surprising. I'm sure he will improve this weekend. I would have chosen Beirne over Lawes though, but Gatland must have wanted one of his taller players starting. A bit harsh on some players as they were good enough to get in but oh well.

Not sure Itoje gets a free pass. Theres certainly a lot of criticism comes his way. He has also been the best Lions player over the tests. Low bar in the second one I admit, but to me he was the difference between the Lions winning and losing that first test with the influence he had.

And was the not 40 or 50 kicks in the game? I would say the aerial battle has been just as important as the breakdown and how VDM is still there after letting the ball bounce or completely running passed it is a mystery.

Where do these individual stats for matches come from? Can anyone give me a link?

There are a number of sites that I normally use but unfortunately I cannae see much on the Lions this time but ESPN have got a lot more accurate but you can also use the official Lions website. Regarding any particular Lions player being "the best" actually depends on what you mean by "best", if it's just your opinion then fine but always good to qualify it by facts, figures and instances.
If you are basing on the media platforms then it depends if it's the English platforms or others. I could produce a dozen rankings that would prove your narrative but many more that certainly wouldn't.

I use my own eyes and yes it is my opinion. I watch the matches and make my own mind up. My back-up is saying the influence he had. Watch the match.

I am interested in more than a dozen platforms that show how Itoje wasn't the best player though. Can you show them?

Boks starting 15 definitely weakened: no PSDT or Faf. However their replacements aren't too shabby. With De Jager starting the lineout is going to be tough for AWJ jumping in the middle of the line. May restrict us throwing to 2 ( not good for quick ball) or the tail ( where Mostert will be lurking).
How we cope with the lineout early on will give a good indication of how this game will go.

Think VDM is very lucky and I hope he played really well.  Harris very unlucky as I thought he had a reasonable  game (with very limited possession for all the backs).  LCD also unlucky as I thought he was one of our better performers.  Watson so/so but was better than VDM.  Beirne and H.Watson are unfortunate as they never really got the chance to shine in the tests.

I might have gone with AWJ & Beard at lock with Itoje at BS.

BigGee wrote:This is civil stuff Jim

The balance of probability, is a much lower bar than beyond reasonable doubt.

They just had to have a feeling he did it to say guilty.

To me there is no third verdict here. He is not guilty.

That's why it sounds like Mostert didn't step up to a specific accusation. He could have gone to the panel and said "After entering the ruck, I felt someone biting my arm. After the ruck ended, I checked my arm, and saw a bite mark, which I immediately brought to the attention of the referee". That would have put Sinckler on the spot. Video would have shown he was the only one who could have done it.

Instead, Mostert either didn't say anything to the panel, or else he said something like "I felt some contact on my arm during the ruck. When I checked, it looked like a mark made by teeth, which I immediately brought to the attention of the referee".

cb wrote:Think VDM is very lucky and I hope he played really well.  Harris very unlucky as I thought he had a reasonable  game (with very limited possession for all the backs).  LCD also unlucky as I thought he was one of our better performers.  Watson so/so but was better than VDM.  Beirne and H.Watson are unfortunate as they never really got the chance to shine in the tests.

I might have gone with AWJ & Beard at lock with Itoje at BS.

I like VDM but agree he is lucky, I think he needs to come looking for work a little more like Adams does. Fingers crossed he does it this weekend. Really annoyed about Beirne & Hamish.

MichaelT wrote:I use my own eyes and yes it is my opinion. I watch the matches and make my own mind up. My back-up is saying the influence he had. Watch the match.

I am interested in more than a dozen platforms that show how Itoje wasn't the best player though. Can you show them?

I did watch the match.
I like the idea that you can back up your stance that Itoje was the best Lions player for the two tests. Can you provide examples?

What you want me to provide English and non-English media links of all the ranking or comments? I could but I'm not sure the mods would like that, anyway here are a few examples just to give you a flavour of what the global community thought of the Lions influencers

This is a fairly typical example of what SA thought of a players influence brought to the game
https://www.keo.co.za/world-rugby-fails-the-game-in-failing-to-cite-itoje/
Another one concerning the first test and what they thought of a player
https://www.moneyman.co.za/2021/07/boks-vs-lions-who-wins-the-second-test/
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/player-ratings-jones-and-henshaw-best-of-a-bad-bunch-on-disappointing-night-for-lions-40707538.html
Another one on the best Lions player

I could go on and on for both sides of the coin but somehow I don't think it's going to change your opinion one way or another

sensisball wrote:Boks starting 15 definitely weakened: no PSDT or Faf. However their replacements aren't too shabby. With De Jager starting the lineout is going to be tough for AWJ jumping in the middle of the line. May restrict us throwing to 2 ( not good for quick ball) or the tail ( where Mostert will be lurking).
How we cope with the lineout early on will give a good indication of how this game will go.

Two fairly different teams, will be interesting. Wish list:

Not another stop start game.
No reds and less of the messing
Some good quality rugby
Tadgh Furlong solo try from his own half to win in injury time.
Warburton and Owens on mute.

flyhalffactory wrote:

MichaelT wrote:I use my own eyes and yes it is my opinion. I watch the matches and make my own mind up. My back-up is saying the influence he had. Watch the match.

I am interested in more than a dozen platforms that show how Itoje wasn't the best player though. Can you show them?

I did watch the match.
I like the idea that you can back up your stance that Itoje was the best Lions player for the two tests. Can you provide examples?

What you want me to provide English and non-English media links of all the ranking or comments? I could but I'm not sure the mods would like that, anyway here are a few examples just to give you a flavour of what the global community thought of the Lions influencers

This is a fairly typical example of what SA thought of a players influence brought to the game
https://www.keo.co.za/world-rugby-fails-the-game-in-failing-to-cite-itoje/
Another one concerning the first test and what they thought of a player
https://www.moneyman.co.za/2021/07/boks-vs-lions-who-wins-the-second-test/
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/player-ratings-jones-and-henshaw-best-of-a-bad-bunch-on-disappointing-night-for-lions-40707538.html
Another one on the best Lions player

I could go on and on for both sides of the coin but somehow I don't think it's going to change your opinion one way or another

Right back at you. No amount of anything is going to stop you criticising Itoje. Its the majority of your posts.

The first one points to ill-discipline for something Itoje wasn't cited for, which is a separate topic, the second one is about who will win and the third one. Deary me. you really are scraping the barrel, but in the first test on the irish independent Itoje got a 9. So over the two tests according to an example you have, he has been the best player.

MichaelT wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MichaelT wrote:I use my own eyes and yes it is my opinion. I watch the matches and make my own mind up. My back-up is saying the influence he had. Watch the match.

I am interested in more than a dozen platforms that show how Itoje wasn't the best player though. Can you show them?

I did watch the match.
I like the idea that you can back up your stance that Itoje was the best Lions player for the two tests. Can you provide examples?

What you want me to provide English and non-English media links of all the ranking or comments? I could but I'm not sure the mods would like that, anyway here are a few examples just to give you a flavour of what the global community thought of the Lions influencers

This is a fairly typical example of what SA thought of a players influence brought to the game
https://www.keo.co.za/world-rugby-fails-the-game-in-failing-to-cite-itoje/
Another one concerning the first test and what they thought of a player
https://www.moneyman.co.za/2021/07/boks-vs-lions-who-wins-the-second-test/
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/player-ratings-jones-and-henshaw-best-of-a-bad-bunch-on-disappointing-night-for-lions-40707538.html
Another one on the best Lions player

I could go on and on for both sides of the coin but somehow I don't think it's going to change your opinion one way or another

Right back at you. No amount of anything is going to stop you criticising Itoje. Its the majority of your posts.

The first one points to ill-discipline for something Itoje wasn't cited for, which is a separate topic, the second one is about who will win and the third one. Deary me. you really are scraping the barrel, but in the first test on the irish independent Itoje got a 9. So over the two tests according to an example you have, he has been the best player.

I don't know why, but FHF seems to be taking a very catmatic attitude to these things.

Can’t believe anyone would read anything into journalists’ player ratings! They’re hugely biased (by their nature) and often nationalistic. I read Joe.ie and another Irish outlet on Sunday and both had
Murray and Henshaw as the Lions’ best players with 7/10 ratings. Really?! But I take it with a pinch of salt and then look at others and see different players getting the higher ratings. Different people see different things and have different biases, just like on here. Journalists are no different.

The Oracle wrote:Can’t believe anyone would read anything into journalists’ player ratings! They’re hugely biased (by their nature) and often nationalistic. I read Joe.ie and another Irish outlet on Sunday and both had
Murray and Henshaw as the Lions’ best players with 7/10 ratings. Really?! But I take it with a pinch of salt and then look at others and see different players getting the higher ratings. Different people see different things and have different biases, just like on here. Journalists are no different.

Same with stats. The published stats are very selective even before they get filtered by posters on here.

The Oracle wrote:Can’t believe anyone would read anything into journalists’ player ratings! They’re hugely biased (by their nature) and often nationalistic. I read Joe.ie and another Irish outlet on Sunday and both had
Murray and Henshaw as the Lions’ best players with 7/10 ratings. Really?! But I take it with a pinch of salt and then look at others and see different players getting the higher ratings. Different people see different things and have different biases, just like on here. Journalists are no different.

Thats my point though - I make up my own mind.

lostinwales wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Can’t believe anyone would read anything into journalists’ player ratings! They’re hugely biased (by their nature) and often nationalistic. I read Joe.ie and another Irish outlet on Sunday and both had
Murray and Henshaw as the Lions’ best players with 7/10 ratings. Really?! But I take it with a pinch of salt and then look at others and see different players getting the higher ratings. Different people see different things and have different biases, just like on here. Journalists are no different.

Same with stats. The published stats are very selective even before they get filtered by posters on here.

Hmm. They’re much more objective though. ‘I thought Alun Wyn Jones was excellent’ is a lot more subjective than ‘AWJ made 15 tackles’ and ‘AWJ conceded 1 turnover’ which are objective measures’. So not the same, for me.

MichaelT wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MichaelT wrote:I use my own eyes and yes it is my opinion. I watch the matches and make my own mind up. My back-up is saying the influence he had. Watch the match.

I am interested in more than a dozen platforms that show how Itoje wasn't the best player though. Can you show them?

I did watch the match.
I like the idea that you can back up your stance that Itoje was the best Lions player for the two tests. Can you provide examples?

What you want me to provide English and non-English media links of all the ranking or comments? I could but I'm not sure the mods would like that, anyway here are a few examples just to give you a flavour of what the global community thought of the Lions influencers

This is a fairly typical example of what SA thought of a players influence brought to the game
https://www.keo.co.za/world-rugby-fails-the-game-in-failing-to-cite-itoje/
Another one concerning the first test and what they thought of a player
https://www.moneyman.co.za/2021/07/boks-vs-lions-who-wins-the-second-test/
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/player-ratings-jones-and-henshaw-best-of-a-bad-bunch-on-disappointing-night-for-lions-40707538.html
Another one on the best Lions player

I could go on and on for both sides of the coin but somehow I don't think it's going to change your opinion one way or another

Right back at you. No amount of anything is going to stop you criticising Itoje. Its the majority of your posts.

The first one points to ill-discipline for something Itoje wasn't cited for, which is a separate topic, the second one is about who will win and the third one. Deary me. you really are scraping the barrel, but in the first test on the irish independent Itoje got a 9. So over the two tests according to an example you have, he has been the best player.

I have said as far back as the 6Ns that we need to have some world class jackals at the breakdown to have a chance of winning the Lions series, as far as I was concerned at that point (based on 6Ns form) Beirne (Lock/BSF), Tips (OSF), Henderson (Lock) and Watson (OSF) were the only form players. I was happy to see if certain players could regain some semblance of form in that area going into the tour and had an open mind about it. However in my mind we have come off second best and none of those players have played in the tests. The inability to win the breakdown, has led to rolling mauls and driving mauls, you only have to look at the SA tries to realise what that has done to us. That's my opinion and is only a talking point for discussion, of course I'll be the first one to say if the players brought in to dominate the airways, the breakdown and the loose actually did that.

Anyway back to the links
First one is about a player in open play during the match which could have influenced the result
The second one is about a massive recognised leadership contribution in the first test
The third one is about a rankings of the 2nd test
As I've said I could scour the internet for loads of columns to prove both sides of the coin.

So we've given you the links to the stats, so how about you give us your back up of Itoje being best player in the second test

I have also mentioned many players who didn't play well on the tour including Dancer, Sutherland, Fagerson and I have being consistent in stating the breakdown is the key area (where we will win or lose the match, well before the players were selected to get on the plane), then the rucks, mauls. I stated during the 6Ns that it doesn't matter what backs we have, if we cannae provide a platform for them. 21-0 in the 2nd 40 proved we didn't provide it.

Anyway I've given my opinion on the areas where we lost out and with valid qualifications. I won't respond to any further sweeping comments/replies without qualification as it could be deemed as "bickering"

If someone got one hand on a player while someone else tackles him, does one or both of them get the tackle? That’s different across sites, as one example

The Oracle wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Can’t believe anyone would read anything into journalists’ player ratings! They’re hugely biased (by their nature) and often nationalistic. I read Joe.ie and another Irish outlet on Sunday and both had
Murray and Henshaw as the Lions’ best players with 7/10 ratings. Really?! But I take it with a pinch of salt and then look at others and see different players getting the higher ratings. Different people see different things and have different biases, just like on here. Journalists are no different.

Same with stats. The published stats are very selective even before they get filtered by posters on here.

Hmm. They’re much more objective though. ‘I thought Alun Wyn Jones was excellent’ is a lot more subjective than ‘AWJ made 15 tackles’ and ‘AWJ conceded 1 turnover’ which are objective measures’. So not the same, for me.

Yes- what I am trying to get at is that the stats only tell a part of the story. Its like the missed tackles stats for England can be high but what is usually happening is that they don't reflect the why or the end result, because of the Saracens style defense. There are numbers like 'rucks hit' which are sometimes available but usually not, and then there is stuff like 'kicks chased' or whatever you'd call it which you never see.

We make judgements based on a combination of what we think of an individual player, what we choose to see, and our own partisan bias. What happens in practice is that the coaches tell, say, Curry or Biggar to do a certain job or play a certain way. They have defined the way they want that part of the jigsaw to look and don't share it with us until long after the games if at all.

lostinwales wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Can’t believe anyone would read anything into journalists’ player ratings! They’re hugely biased (by their nature) and often nationalistic. I read Joe.ie and another Irish outlet on Sunday and both had
Murray and Henshaw as the Lions’ best players with 7/10 ratings. Really?! But I take it with a pinch of salt and then look at others and see different players getting the higher ratings. Different people see different things and have different biases, just like on here. Journalists are no different.

Same with stats. The published stats are very selective even before they get filtered by posters on here.

Hmm. They’re much more objective though. ‘I thought Alun Wyn Jones was excellent’ is a lot more subjective than ‘AWJ made 15 tackles’ and ‘AWJ conceded 1 turnover’ which are objective measures’. So not the same, for me.

Yes- what I am trying to get at is that the stats only tell a part of the story. Its like the missed tackles stats for England can be high but what is usually happening is that they don't reflect the why or the end result, because of the Saracens style defense. There are numbers like 'rucks hit' which are sometimes available but usually not, and then there is stuff like 'kicks chased' or whatever you'd call it which you never see.

We make judgements based on a combination of what we think of an individual player, what we choose to see, and our own partisan bias. What happens in practice is that the coaches tell, say, Curry or Biggar to do a certain job or play a certain way. They have defined the way they want that part of the jigsaw to look and don't share it with us until long after the games if at all.

True, I blame Toonie!

Right then. Interesting selection.

Placing a lot of faith in Lawes but justifiable based on the first test performance. Just seems very weird not to have Beirne or Watson on the bench. Take away George too and 3 of our best jackalers won’t be featuring. I hope Simmons has a huge game because Gatland will get a booting in the Irish press for not picking Beirne. At the same time, Conan does seem to be nailed on as a Gatland favourite.

Finally I hope that if things go south and we’re getting crushed Gats is brave enough to reunite Price and Russell quickly.

flyhalffactory wrote:...What you want me to provide English and non-English media links of all the ranking or comments? ...

Look, you aren't alone in thinking the second row needs changing, with Itoje being the fall guy. One of the Telegraph journalists picked AWJ and Beard to start. However, that's very different to claiming, as you did, that the majority of player rankings say Itoje has not played well.

I have always thought we would need out best scrummaging lock pairing against the Boks. We failed on that selection front in 2009 and England didn't get it right during the World Cup (Kruis was left on the bench). It has been frustrating that Gatland didn't work that out early, with all the resources available to him.

He always knew AWJ was his captain, so he should have selected locks other than Itoje to match AWJ, or selected a pack and gameplan which could complement an AWJ/Itoje pairing, given that he saw those two as his preferred choice.

The argument for AWJ has never relied only on his playing ability, It has also been his ability to inspire, and control games through officials.

I said, before the series started, that the era of captains influencing referees is over, at least for now. COVID-19 means officials have been working with no crowds baying for blood. In addition, the laws on dangerous tackles have encouraged officials to withdraw to a bubble, where they wave away the captains, and go through their own routines, without listening to appeals. Officiating teams have become very comfortable relying on themselves. How often do you hear a referee ask "Anyone disagree?" before a decision. It makes everyone culpable, which makes it easier to ignore any protests from captains. When Erasmus and Kolisi talked about the Springbok captain being disrespected, it was the clearest indication of all that South Africa had played no real Test rugby for nigh on two years. That's just how referees treat captains nowadays, and neither Erasmus or Kolisi had ever experienced it.

After Owen Farrell's on-field complaints were waived away by Gauzere, when Dan Biggar kicked Josh Adams to a try, Eddie Jones apparently told Farrell to stay away from referees in future. This was seen by the press as an admission that Farrell couldn't carry out a basic captaincy function. Instead, Jones had seen the way the game was going.

This is the reason the influence of coaches on the referee has become such a flashpoint. Coaches increasingly feel they can't rely on their captains to manage the course of a game, so they are ramping up their own involvement beforehand. We all should have foreseen the situation we are in right now.

So, if you can't influence the referee, then the main aim for your leadership group should be to inspire and lead the team. AWJ can do that. However, I recall Sam Warburton saying that leading the Lions was easy because you had so many leaders on the pitch. With this selection, Gatland has dropped two national captains (Farrell and Hogg) from the match day squad. With Murray, he has also dropped his alternate tour captain to the bench. Jamie George and Iain Henderson were both named as captains for tour matches, and neither have featured in the Tests. That doesn't leave much of a stable Lions leadership core.

For all my "If you want to go there, I wouldn't start from here" energy, I am optimistic that Lions can get a result from this Third test. Most things went right for us in the First Test, and most things went right for them in the Second. If it's even stevens, the Lions can give them a game. The Boks will fear losing more than us. The same fear drove them to success last weekend. If we can stay in touch, then the fear of losing could drive them to mistakes this weekend.

Don't panic everyone.

It's fairly obvious what is needed here  :

Well, VDM must have photo's of Gatland in a compromising position.

On a more serious note, he is very lucky and I think Gatland has gone for his big physical winger liked he used to do with Wales with North and Cuthbert.

He is one lucky boy.

Rugby Fan wrote:Look, you aren't alone in thinking the second row needs changing, with Itoje being the fall guy. One of the Telegraph journalists picked AWJ and Beard to start. However, that's very different to claiming, as you did, that the majority of player rankings say Itoje has not played well.

I have never said that.

I said that many media platforms didn't have him as the best player on the park.

I also didn't say he didn't play well or not, I said (in my mind) Gats has gone defensive/offensive lock, not even loose/tight or even left/right. In my mind Itoje (alongside Lawes) was in to dominate the lineout, breakdown...thus stopping SA rucks (to a degree) and specifically mauls be it driving or driving/rolling mauls. In my mind it didn't happen in the 1st Test 1st half, it happened 1st Test 2nd half but we can qualify that by suggesting SA run out of gas, it didn't really happen 2nd test 1st half and we know what happened 2nd half 21-0. Hendo/Beirne unit did that very well during the 6Ns and to a lesser degree so has Beard/Navidi historically and Beard (taller & heavier than Itoje) hasn't really put a foot wrong, both in the airways/loose on the tour.

Yes there has been a few calls for Beard to replace Itoje but like "Farrell nominated best player in the world a number of times so we have to get him in team somehow" if we have the audacity to suggest he is not the best offensive lock then as he's "world class, best lock in the world" we obviously have to start him but where....oh yes he obviously has to start 6.

In my mind he hasn't performed well enough over 80 mins to start 4 or 6, but he is a very very good hybrid.

So just a discussion point;
4. Beard (we need to dominate the LO and ballast the pack)
5. AWJ (best defensive lock)
6. Beirne (good tour & best jackaler)
That's also (with Curry) 4 great lineout options.

19. Itoje (covers 4/6). Beard to stay on replacing AWJ after 45-50 mins
20. Lawes (covers 5/6) Watson the only proper 7

Few notes
1. Owen instead of George or LCD? ( George who in my mind should starting or at least in the 23.
2. Harris out is a huge mistake, Henshaw is not a 13 and Aki has been poor defensively
3. If we play Dancer on bench then we needed the fastest player of both sides on the bench......LRZ

Finally DvdM (in my mind should have been dropped) but now you have Sanjay, Daddy Adams and Duan all with an aggressive "dog" who all selfishly know the way to the line

The suggestion to drop Itoje is an interesting one indeed....our best player in the 1st test and one of the better performers in the 2nd?

Anyway....lock is not an issue, both AWJ and Itoje were excellent for a half, they just need to keep this up for the full match.

I do have to laugh at this constant harping on about stats to prove a player's worth, it's rather amusing. Look at AWJ for example. I thought some of leadership qualities in the first half were great, he really got in the face of the SA and was physical throughout, this is what I want in a captain. I thought him and Itoje went really well, they just weren't backed up hugely by the rest of the pack.

It often makes me wonder if some people just check a stats site rather than actually watching a game sometimes, very odd.

Sgt Pooly wrote:The suggestion to drop Itoje is an interesting one indeed....our best player in the 1st test and one of the better performers in the 2nd?

Glad I made it interesting for you mod.

Like I said "best" is a sweeping statement usually backed up by no qualification and as somebody stated earlier why listen to media platform rankings as they all have their own agenda. At least I kinda qualified my stance by facts, game instances and rationale.
I suppose there's always the down-vote though to kinda prove your point  

I'm in France with very little access to any media access bar the games, but thanks for your concern.

The player that gets man of the match is usually one of if not the best performer on the day, it's quite a common thing.