URC Non round fixtures wrap up

First topic message reminder :

This is a thread to cover off the URC games that are coming up over the next few months that were delayed etc from their regular round slot.  Starting with this weekend South African Derbies.

All games on Premier Sport, URC tv and Supersport.  Kick off Times UK and Irish time.

Friday 06/05/2022

Cardiff v Zebre- Cardiff Arms Park, Cardiff – KO 19.35 IRE & UK / 20.35 ITA & SA- BBC Wales and Mediaset

Sunday 08/05/2022

Ospreys v Dragons- Swansea.com Stadium, Swansea – KO 15.00 IRE & UK / 16.00 ITA & SA

Old Man wrote:Sharks have signed Etzebeth for a five year contract, until 2027, Private equity seems to play a big part in their recruitment.

They might become the marquee team in SA.

You would have to wonder if he would have come back if it was Super Rugby. Since joining the URC more players seem to be coming back though could just be ebbs and flows.

Sharks should be able to do well in Europe (though it takes a year to adjust) but not sure the coaching team has what it takes to take them all the way.

In my view coaching in SA is way behind in technical aspects to other nations. Not one of our teams showcase the general skills and fluidity in attack as the European teams.

Our set piece have always been strong, but we are starting to fall behind in the tenchnical aspects of mauling, breakdown and support play.

5 more games this weekend to make up for games missed, including 4 games in South Africa and a Scottish Derby

neilthom7 wrote:5 more games this weekend to make up for games missed, including 4 games in South Africa and a Scottish Derby

Glasgow 3rds v. Edinburgh 3rds. Who has the best imports?

Terrible timing, but necessary, I suppose.

Glasgow might be able to win now

Scarlets look like they are getting hammered by the Bulls.

Makes you wonder why they don't simply sign the entire Bulls Roster with a view of qualifying them on residency grounds and save themselves 5 million in the payroll. If performance is any indication of player values its pretty clear right now Scarlets are overpaying their squad. They are almost spending 3 times the Bulls salary cap. So clearly money is not the deciding factor right now.

Some big problems in Welsh Rugby right now and the regions will automatically point to under funding. But the WRU have no control of how the money is spent and its clear there is some serious miss spending by the Regions.

Welshmushroom wrote:Scarlets look like they are getting hammered by the Bulls.

Makes you wonder why they don't simply sign the entire Bulls Roster with a view of qualifying them on residency grounds and save themselves 5 million in the payroll.  If performance is any indication of player values its pretty clear right now Scarlets are overpaying their squad.  They are almost spending 3 times the Bulls salary cap.  So clearly money is not the deciding factor right now.

Some big problems in Welsh Rugby right now and the regions will automatically point to under funding.  But the WRU have no control of how the money is spent and its clear there is some serious miss spending by the Regions.  


 

I get your point but you have to remember the relative value of the pound vs the rand too. Sure that affects things a little and how much the SA teams can afford to pay.

You say the Scarlets are overpaying their squad but would those players really get paid less if they signed for, say, an English or Irish team? Very much doubt it. So they’re probably paying them market value. The other argument, which I’d agree with, is that the players are not playing well enough for their wages. If that’s what you meant then I agree. But I think that’s a coaching issue. Have Scarlets really got a quality coaching team in place to make this group of players competitive? Could another set of coaches make them more competitive and win more games? I think ‘yes’. If so, that’s not players being paid too much. That’s coaches not being up to the task.

Hard to gage if its coaching. Peel inherited that squad. Rugby is a simply game. If you don't have a front 5 that will give you parity you can spend all the money you like on back rows and backs. You will lose more games than you win.

Scarlets don't have a front 5 that allow them to play. Even when they do I question the pace in the actual team.

The issue is because so little money goes into Academy development they can't now simply replace welsh players as there aren't many better options available. They just have so many players who are trading on reputations at this point. I could probably name 40+ players currently on big money at the regions who simply don't provide value for money.

You can clearly see the difference between setups even compared to the SCottish rugby union. They hand select players in weak positions and then go after overseas talent they can qualify for Scotland and has the potential to become a regular international.

Meanwhile in Wales they have a total disconnect. Regions spend the money how they want to. Which if your the WRU has to be frustrating.

Yeah, but apart from a small amount it’s their money not the WRUs. They’re private businesses. The majority of funding is earned by the regions from TV and competition funding, plus whatever they generate from sales and merch. Only a small bit is the wru giving the regions money, and that is their payment for having extra access to players outside of the international window, which means the regions need to pay for extra players to cover those times (I.e. bigger squads). If the WRU wants full control of how money is spent and who is bought they’ll have to buy up all the regions and their stadia. Not going to happen.

In terms of inherited squads, who would Peel realistically be able to replace this lot with? Bear in mind that they need to be producing players for Wales so they can’t be all ‘foreign’. Only a small number of nwq I believe. Any replacements are going to cost around the same or more! Which Welsh players, better than the Scarlets current crop, are available? I can’t think of any, unless you raid the other regions. And that would just be moving the deckchairs on the titanic.

For all this talk of the regions spending how they wish, don’t the WRU usually try and block signings of NWQ players, or is that just at the dragons?

Peel should have went to Cardiff as backs coach. That scarlets assignment was another jobs for the boys appointment, like most in Welsh rugby and that’s why we are struggling at every level. The Rut started as soon as Moar moved on. He was a good coach and a pretty nice guy.

Incredible fight back from the Lions to beat Munster.

Well done lions big win and never gave up. The replacement front row turned the tide. Munster couldn't score in the second half.

The second half was summed up by Munster going 20 phases and not looking like scoring and Lions pounced once the runner was alone.

I think that makes it a hard battle now for Munster to make the Top 4 as must got to Leinster and Ulster away. Think the Sharks will run them down.

Lions did the other SA franchises a huge favour winning this match, whilst the Lions have no Springboks and mostly journeymen and younger players, perhaps they are building something after all.

They did that in 2012 after being dropped from Super Rugby and played in three Super rugby finals in 2016, 17 and 18.

Will follow their progress with interest.

I do think they need to find a few recruits though.

Watching Stormers-Cardiff now. Stormers looks really good. But I really don't enjoy watching without supporters in the stands. Just like everyone (sensible) can't wait to put Covid in the rear view mirror.

I think we can all get behind that

Table really starting to take shape now, most team have played either 12 or 13 games, a lot to play for in the run in

Another good weekend for the SA teams, let's hope they can continue, next weekend are two derby matches though, two to move forward and two to have a set back

Next weekend isnt derbies for South African teams.
Its more home games for the 4 South African teams.
Lions welcome Ospreys Friday, Stormers have Ulster, Shark v Edinburgh and Bulls v Dragons Saturday

Apologies, I looked on the URC website earlier in the week and the fixture list showed derbies, but in April. I didn't check the dates correctly

Yes i believe they are having them when the European cup games are on, that should also allow some teams to get fully caught up with games over those couple of weeks too.

2 rounds of games in next 2 weekends before Europe, business end of the season now.

Ulster could be missing some of their Ireland internationals for their trip to South Africa since they left Belfast today and those guys only played yesterday. I'm not expecting a huge amount from Ulster in the trip tbh, despite where they are in the table I don't think we will prosper on this trip.

The way things are shaping up the only thing that will stop the bottom three teams being Welsh are Zebre.

geoff999rugby wrote:The way things are shaping up the only thing that will stop the bottom three teams being Welsh are Zebre.

Can you write this to the WRU?

I’m fully expecting Zebre to beat Dragons, due to them playing us home. I’m not sure if Dragons can really finish bottom now, but I feel like we have to really, to show to some how bad things are.

Dragons still have derby games and I think they will get one win out of those. I think they have lost some belief after things not going their way at the start (other than the Connacht game).

Here's the thing though. The Dragons are at least identifying the weaknesses. Tight 5 and Centre has been a real problem. Dean is strengthening both those areas for next season. Even our Academies have gone well this year. I don't think chopping and changing coaches all the time helps us to be honest. May as well stick with Ryan as I can't see a more successful coach coming to us. Give him 4-5 years at the helm and then see where we are at. I'm actually positive about the Dragons but I also don't think Rome was built in a day.

But clearly the funding should simply be split equally at this point. At least then all things would be fairly resourced.

The Oracle wrote:Yeah, but apart from a small amount it’s their money not the WRUs. They’re private businesses. The majority of funding is earned by the regions from TV and competition funding, plus whatever they generate from sales and merch. Only a small bit is the wru giving the regions money, and that is their payment for having extra access to players outside of the international window, which means the regions need to pay for extra players to cover those times (I.e. bigger squads). If the WRU wants full control of how money is spent and who is bought they’ll have to buy up all the regions and their stadia. Not going to happen.

Not totally accurate. The WRU are the main stakeholders in the URC. All TV revenue deals and all funding is essentially owned and signed by them. They then distribute all earnings including additional funding to the teams they choose to participate in these tournaments. As the contract for TV revenue and payments all go directly to the WRU they essentially own these revenue streams. Also your understating the amount of actual funding the WRU put in. TV revenues don't actually count for that much. Your probably talking in the regions of 35-40 million at that is an equal split between 16 teams. Your talking probably in the region of 2.5 million per team and that includes ERC money.

The Scarlets received 9 million from the WRU. So given 6.5 million is not covered by revenue directly related to club rugby, I think your underplaying how much of the money actually ends up contributing to their playing budgets. The WRU could easily select 4 other sides to participate in the URC and essentially pay them directly. The ownership of the league is split between the Unions not the clubs.

By the way all merchandise and ticket revenue is handled by the Region directly and they take that money directly from the supporters. Has nothing to do with the WRU but those takings are fairly small given the crowd sizes even before Covid. Even at an average of 6000 fans with season tickets (200 each) and assuming each of those supporters spent say 50 quid in the merchant shop your probably looking at external revenue of an additional 1.5 million in direct revenue incomes. So essentially without the WRU funding they barely would be able to operate let alone have a pro rugby roster. Without WRU money they couldn't exist.

The league is starting to take shape with Sharks, Stormers and Bulls are all rising up the table.


It's been a very stop start middle period but the run in and finish should be very good. Things are hotting up, as munster literally found out!

Yep its a interesting run in - Even in the top 4 it's not certain. Can't rule out a late push from some of the SA sides if they keep winning at home.

Really starting to show how important it is to win all your home games if you really want to have a chance of a top 8 finish.

Leinster and Ulster have been a class apart but in all honesty I have no idea how that final 8 will look. I will say the chances of any Welsh side making the top 8 look to be evaporating. Ospreys will need a hell of a double weekend in SA if they realistically have any chance of making it.

I think there are enough derby games to get one of the Welsh in with a run of wins, but if each of them take wins off each other it could hurt them.

Scarlets have 2 games v Dragons and 2 v Cardiff, 1 v Zebre and the final to matches are key with Ospreys away and Stormers home so could easily pick up 6 wins from their remaining 8.  Stormers have a hard run in with Bulls, Ulster, Leinster and Glasgow all to visit Cape town. While Stormers are 12 points clear with one more game played Scarlets have a much harder chance of getting BP wins.

Feel the last two rounds will play a big part n closing the top 8. Many teams could possibly win both or lose both. Great planing by the league to end on those fixtures.

Week 17
Bulls v Glasgow
Munster v Cardiff
Stormers v Leinster
Ospreys v Scarlets
Sharks v Connacht
Ulster v Edinburgh

Week 18

Ulster v Sharks
Ospreys v Bulls
Leinster v Munster
Edinburgh v Glasgow
Scarlets v Stormers

Ulster are away to Edinburgh not at home

I wonder with this new league being difficult to qualify for the top 8, will sides start focusing on the league instead of Europe to make sure they keep qualifying for the Champions Cup?  We already see this in France and England.

Also how will this affect Rosters moving forward.  A side that consistently falls out of the top 8 and exits in the early group rounds will only be playing 22 games in a season.  Can't see those teams needing that many players.  Makes a big difference when you consider French play 30 at a minimum per season and English are playing 28.  Would imagine it would start to make more sense to start putting a bulk of the funding into a starting 23 at that point.

That could well happen, with games not due to take place on international weekends that would also mean less people could be needed (barring any further Covid related issues)

I do think though because rounds are played during 6 nations (in the off weeks) some teams will need to keep having extra players around as they will miss the players who are not released from international camps. The likes of Leinster etc.

In Ireland I'd imagine it will not change too much from how it works now squad wise, although we may see more player moving from province to province if there is less game time on the table.

Would people be up for a URC cup or dare I say a Rainbow Cup that was played during the international window

Don't know what others think but I'm good, I really wouldn't give a Poopie about a cup only played during international periods. Besides might as well give the guys their rest during that time who can have it.

Although the idea of having some sort of developmental league/A team style league might not be a bad one to bridge the gap between academy/club games and the URC.

Travel is to far for an International period cup.
We could do a Celtic Cup though between the 10 sides.

Two groups of 5
2 at home, 2 away with SFs and a Final

The only issue I have with giving rest is match fitness as a squad.  I think teams come back a little undercooked.

I know Italy have stated they need to get their A team up and going with the reduced playing time.  I wouldn't mind some A team comp between Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy over 3 weeks.

Another option I would like to see but won't happen due to money is an u25 side for the 4 URC European nations to be included in the B 6 Nations to play against Georgia, Spain etc.  It gives them better games and let's us see how our younger players do against actual opposition rather than just training.  Won't happen because of politics too.

geoff999rugby wrote:Travel is to far for an International period cup.
We could do a Celtic Cup though between the 10 sides.

Two groups of 5
2 at home, 2 away with SFs and a Final

Not sure if anyone is following the European Super Cup with regional/domestic teams from T2 nations. We have never replaced the B&I cup and could be a way to do it.  It's done by regions which reduces travel.

I also like the Scottish Super 6 but not sure how it is working as a development progress.  More and more Irish players seen to be leaving the system due to lack of games etc and think it needs to be resolved.

A lot of Ireland players are leaving because the Provincial salary bills are being cut significantly due to current economic realities

geoff999rugby wrote:A lot of Ireland players are leaving because the Provincial salary bills are being cut significantly due to current economic realities

Is that as a knock-on of Covid that means we need to reduce wages for a cycle to get the finances back to where it was or is it a drop in revenue that will affect going forward.

Reduced games means reduced squads aswell so it's a hard one to manage and I think with a years experience teams are ready to adjust their squad for the URC needs.  I would love to see stats on player injuries as I am sure the couple of weeks break during the AIs and 6Ns must allow players to fix niggles rather than doing more damage and causing a longer time out.

Most of the people leaving are from Leinster that we hear about so in part that is probably the realities of professionalism and players want a living and teams like Leinster see better value in the academy over the fringe squad members that only get a few games a season.

For me the new European fixture list could create problems for teams moving forward. Sides that drop out of Europe latter rounds and don't manage to qualify for the top 8 URC will have massive break periods. I also fail to see any advantage for this new 2 leg system for the final 16. There seems to be no real incentive to actually top the group stages. I would imagine we will see some upsets as a result where a seeded team loses on aggregate over 2 legs. It's probably going to benefit some of the French sides that don't travel well but have a habit of putting 40 points on people at home. Very frustrating system if you ask me.

The good news I suppose is player welfare in the URC as most blocks only last 4-5 weeks with plenty of rest breaks in the season. Downside will be for players in terms of how many pro players are required. Some of our Welsh Regions have like 60 players on the books. I can't see any scenario where they will require anywhere near that number.

I think were already seeing how valuable each game is in the URC. Friend already came out this week to say Connacht realistically need to win 4 out of the next 5 to have any chance of the top 8 finish. To be fair to them they have at times played some really quality rugby but they have dropped some games this year that they know they probably needed to win.

What is clear is that every side involved now knows winning at home is a must if you have any plans to even make the top 8 moving forward and losing just a couple of games at home essentially will end your season.

Do the bottom 8 not go into a "tier 2" competition?

I thought there was another comp for the other teams below European Champions Cup?

I agree 60 player squads are excessive if they season has less matches and better rest periods. Smaller squads will mean more money to less players and better quality throughout squads, however it would probably make more sense to have that revenue go to Academy squads.

I still think around 45 log points is necessary for a top 8 spot.

Yeah there is the Challenge Cup - but its not a premier tournament and few teams take it seriously and focus on the league instead. Plus to qualify for that you can come dead last in the league. But for any side going after any serious silverware or knockout rugby, you simply won't get away with losing 2 or more home games in the league.

Also now European rugby has even made alterations to the challenge cup so in the knockout stages your going to have Champions cup teams parachuted who didn't qualify for the main event. That is a kick in the teeth to anyone involved in the Challenge Cup because you could end up with a winner for the cup that didn't actually contribute to the earlier group stages. Terrible changes to the European tournament.

2 South African derbies and a Welsh derby this weekend while the European games are on.

On this weekend's fixtures (Race for the playoffs)

Stormers v Bulls - winners will be firmly in the top 4 race.  Feel it will be the Stormers who seem to be the smarter team

Sharks v Lions - sharks have been ok but laboured to wins against the two bottom teams.  Lions seem to be doing better and like to run the ball so may make it difficult but Sharks to get over the line.

Cardiff v Scarlets - both still in with a shot at 8th but need no more slip ups.  Cardiff are good at home and not great away meaning this may be a Cardiff win.

Race for 8th and lose to Leinster in the quarters
If Sharks lose they could be in trouble.  Home v Leinster and away to Ulster not great especially if Scarlets pick up 5pt win (unlikely)
Whoever loses in Wales are out as they would be more than a win behind 8th and would need one of the SA team plus winning Region to lose 2 games.

If Bulls win and Stormers get 1/2 BP and Sharks win then Edinburgh could finish the weekend in 8th.  After a strong start the wheels could come off and finish with a whimper.

Max points possible (win remaining games with BP)
Leinster 75 (3/3 games against top 8)
Ulster 65 (3/3 games v top 8)
Glasgow 65 (3/3 games v top 8)
Munster 62 (2/3 games v top 8 - Cardiff (Top2 away))
Edinburgh 59 (2/3 games v Top 8 - Zebre)
Stormers 63 (3/4 games v Top 8 - Scarlets)
Bulls 62 (3/4 games v Top 8 - Benetton)
Sharks 61 (2/4 games v Top 8 - Lions & Connacht)

Connacht 47
Scarlets 57 (1/5 games v Top 8 Stormers)
Ospreys 50
Lions 50
Benetton 44
Cardiff 53
Dragons 41
Zebre 27

Leinster are in the playoffs.
Everyone in the top 8 can make the Top 4.
Scarlets could make the Top 8 but must win all their games.
Munster & Edinburgh look most vulnerable for dropping down the table.
Leinster squad to SA could have a big impact on the shape of the Top 8, if they send a weak squad it helps Stormers and Sharks.

Big results for Stormers. With 4 points dividing 2nd and 6th. Next full round sees Ulster v Munster, Sharks v Leinster and Stormers v Glasgow. That top 6 could easily move around a bit. Really starting to worry as a Munster fan that they may (probably will) end up fighting to get a good away quarter final.

Also big result for Scarlets. Didn't see it coming especially by that much. If they beat Dragons with a BP for their game in hand they are then only 1pt behind Bulls and 2pts Edinburgh.

Dai Young came out and openly criticised the Cardiff players last week saying that they need a clear out of dead wood and that some were not putting in the effort, or words to that effect. I think some had contact extensions due to covid when perhaps they would have been gone before now. I wonder if perhaps it’s not a happy camp?

Not sure there’s many happy camps in Wales to be honest! Maybe the Scarlets. They seem to be an a bit of an upward trajectory, but then that is as a result of playing another Welsh region twice in a row so I’m not sure how much we can read into that!