England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

A shame about May as it would be great to see a May, Freeman and Steward back three. I still feel there is a good side there if something clicks but I remain more pessimistic than optimistic about that happening.

1.Genge
2.George
3.Stuart
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Lawes
7.Curry
8.Vunipola

9.Randall
10.Smith

11.Nowell/May
12.Farrell
13.Marchant
14.Freeman
15.Steward

16.LCD
17.Vunipola
18.Heyes
19.Isiekwe/Chessum
20.Underhill/Willis
21.Care
22.Dingwall
23.Cokanasiga

That looks good to me on paper. The bench forwards would be more resembling what England used to have earlier in Eddie's reign too which would be nice. The bench impact recently has been pretty limp most the time.

Of the young back three players I want to see Freeman the most once you factor Arundell being an apprentice so feels unlikely. I'd love to see Arundell on the bench though.

Isiekwe vs Chessum and Underhill vs Willis are tight calls I'd be happy to see them go either way. 4 players who I rate.

Well that's a pack to win the setpiece certainly. And you look at the backs and there's plenty of creativity and power there. There's a shed load of pressure in Gleeson to at least show some consistency in attack this summer.

The entire structure (or lack of structure at times given the flexibility) they seem to be moving towards is reliant on the Smith-Farrell partnership working. If that clicks it might suddenly function well.

Jones got a lot of stick for the 'Smith needs Farrell there to guide him' comment but the Six Nations showed it at times. Having Farrell at 12 to control the game when it doesn't suit Smith's strengths, then Smith coming into the game when it does suit could theoretically be very good.

Also simple things such as having an experienced international playmaker to help adjust how flat/deep Smith plays mid match. At times Smith played extremely flat against set defences during the Six Nations and it just wasn't working the same way as it does against Premiership defences.

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Could be a back back 3...

11 Freeman
14 Coka
15 Steward

So

15 Furbank
14 Steward
11 Marchant then for Jones.

Furbank on the wing would send me over the edge I think.

Could well be Furbank on the bench to cover most of the back line positions.  Unless the attack still struggles in the first game or two and Furbank is put in at 15.  Would that put you close to the edge?  

A little less though than on the wing, but I'd still get a bit sweaty I think. I find the continual selection of Furbank and Ewels very odd tbh, they've both proved they're well short of the level required.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Could be a back back 3...

11 Freeman
14 Coka
15 Steward

So

15 Furbank
14 Steward
11 Marchant then for Jones.

Furbank on the wing would send me over the edge I think.

Could well be Furbank on the bench to cover most of the back line positions.  Unless the attack still struggles in the first game or two and Furbank is put in at 15.  Would that put you close to the edge?  

A little less though than on the wing, but I'd still get a bit sweaty I think. I find the continual selection of Furbank and Ewels very odd tbh, they've both proved they're well short of the level required.

Will never understand the selection of Ewels. Though I do find it slightly disturbing that thinking about Furbank makes you sweaty. Is it the porn star mustache?

To be fair, Furbank has not played much on the wing, really just as cover, not that would prevent Jones from putting him there. If Farrell and Smith both start, I am not sure Jones would pick Furbank at all. I think he likes having two playmakers on the pitch at the same time, the second at 12 or 15. Of course, it is arguable whether one would count Farrell as a playmaker.

Furbank reminds me of Austin Healy. We don't know where he fits in a coaches plans not does the coach. He is a handy little player and hits some lovely lines but I can't see him making much of a contribution to any particular style of play. At least he can catch and pass and create things which is more than Ewels could ever wish for. I hope Ewels does kick on and ram our opinions down our throat but can't see it. Usually players with limited skill set can be useful by being a constant bloody pain to the opposition with tackles and bullying in the tight exchanges.

The best personal example I can think of takes me back a few years when playing with a farmer who had no intention of touching the ball unless in a maul or killing some poor sod when he talked man and ball to empty someone. He wore long studs and had hands like hams and was a constant physical presence that acted like a sort of nuclear deterrent so the opposition played nicely.

Yoda wrote:Furbank reminds me of Austin Healy. We don't know where he fits in a coaches plans not does the coach. He is a handy little player and hits some lovely lines but I can't see him making much of a contribution to any particular style of play. At least he can catch and pass and create things which is more than Ewels could ever wish for. I hope Ewels does kick on and ram our opinions down our throat but can't see it. Usually players with limited skill set can be useful by being a constant bloody pain to the opposition with tackles and bullying in the tight exchanges.

The best personal example I can think of takes me back a few years when playing with a farmer who had no intention of touching the ball unless in a maul or killing some poor sod when he talked man and ball to empty someone. He wore long studs and had hands like hams and was a constant physical presence that acted like a sort of nuclear deterrent so the opposition played nicely.

But Healy was good at most of the positions he played.

lostinwales wrote:

Yoda wrote:Furbank reminds me of Austin Healy. We don't know where he fits in a coaches plans not does the coach. He is a handy little player and hits some lovely lines but I can't see him making much of a contribution to any particular style of play. At least he can catch and pass and create things which is more than Ewels could ever wish for. I hope Ewels does kick on and ram our opinions down our throat but can't see it. Usually players with limited skill set can be useful by being a constant bloody pain to the opposition with tackles and bullying in the tight exchanges.

The best personal example I can think of takes me back a few years when playing with a farmer who had no intention of touching the ball unless in a maul or killing some poor sod when he talked man and ball to empty someone. He wore long studs and had hands like hams and was a constant physical presence that acted like a sort of nuclear deterrent so the opposition played nicely.

But Healy was good at most of the positions he played.

Healey also played more positions and had pace.

The problem with Furbank is that he's never looked good at international level. He had a passable game at 10 but it was an arm chair ride against Tonga.

Yeah, but Furbank is much less annoying than Healey. That’s gotta be worth something.

lostinwales wrote:

Yoda wrote:Furbank reminds me of Austin Healy. We don't know where he fits in a coaches plans not does the coach. He is a handy little player and hits some lovely lines but I can't see him making much of a contribution to any particular style of play. At least he can catch and pass and create things which is more than Ewels could ever wish for. I hope Ewels does kick on and ram our opinions down our throat but can't see it. Usually players with limited skill set can be useful by being a constant bloody pain to the opposition with tackles and bullying in the tight exchanges.

The best personal example I can think of takes me back a few years when playing with a farmer who had no intention of touching the ball unless in a maul or killing some poor sod when he talked man and ball to empty someone. He wore long studs and had hands like hams and was a constant physical presence that acted like a sort of nuclear deterrent so the opposition played nicely.

But Healy was good at most of the positions he played.

And here in lies the issue....Furbank has looked well short of international class when he's played. It's plain as day that he's not good enough but his "ability to cover a number of positions" keeps in involved apparently.

The best thing that can be said is that it's good prep for WC squads. And Furbank is the restricted squad emergency cover for fly half in 1 of those midweek games with quick turnaround. The other guy for that role would probably be Malins and frankly he's not impressed at wing or full back either. Always thought the latter was a better fly half than in the back 3 but when you have the amount of quality players that Saracens do was always going to struggle getting time there.

If either Smith or Farrell are ruled out it's going to be a fly half called into the squad not a winger or full back.

Poorfour wrote:Yeah, but Furbank is much less annoying than Healey. That’s gotta be worth something.

Yeah I was going to say something about how much he could wind up the opposition but in reality it was everybody else on the pitch.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The best thing that can be said is that it's good prep for WC squads. And Furbank is the restricted squad emergency cover for fly half in 1 of those midweek games with quick turnaround. The other guy for that role would probably be Malins and frankly he's not impressed at wing or full back either. Always thought the latter was a better fly half than in the back 3 but when you have the amount of quality players that Saracens do was always going to struggle getting time there.

If either Smith or Farrell are ruled out it's going to be a fly half called into the squad not a winger or full back.

Agree completely.

Covid impacting Ireland NZ now. Luckily not heard anything more from us, an outbreak would properly scupper it going ahead on Saturday.

I disagree on Malins being a better 10. Even if he had been able to develop the game control with experience does he not simply lack the range/distance on his kicking game to be a top class fly-half?

Had he settled at 10 I don't think he'd have played more than a few caps for England in a tour on a Lions year or off the bench for instance. As a fullback I think he deserves to be in the squad as second choice behind Steward - though I hope Arundell and Hodge can overtake him as fullbacks and Freeman looks a cracking talent.

He's not an international winger but is a really good fullback in his own right.

Australia potentially struggling at TH for T1. James Slipper maybe even used to cover there apparently.

If Genge can maintain his recent form from club and internationals then England should get a clear advantage there.

For what it’s worth, I think these COVID outbreaks go some way towards explaining why Eddie is selecting players like Furbank in the squad.

In the RWC, you’re always at risk of a player picking up an injury, and then you have the difficult decision of whether to hope it clears up or to permanently replace them. Normally, for anything more than a minor injury, you end up replacing the player.

COVID changes that. You still have the same rules around squads and replacements, but if a player comes down with COVID it typically means they will be out for a couple of weeks and then back at something close to the condition they were in before.

Which means you’re much less likely to replace a player who gets COVID, because you’re much more certain of getting them back.

In the meantime, though, you have to have enough players to cover all the positions.

That puts a premium on players who can cover multiple positions well rather than one brilliantly, especially given England’s relatively easy schedule.

With the exception of the scrum halves and Smith, just about every back can cover multiple positions at a decent standard, Farrell 10/12, Marchant 13/14, Freeman 11/14/15 and at a push 13, Nowell 11,14,13, (7), Steward 15/14, May 11/14/15, Dingwall 12/13, Cokanasiga 14/13, Furbank 15/10.

I have even seen Care act as an emergency wing and do well, but that was some time ago.

Having France, New Zealand, the Boks and Ireland on the other side of the draw is undeniably very fortunate.

There's something about the potential Argentina side that just makes me think they might do well in this RWC though. Montoya is looking genuinely world class these days. Matera, Isa, Petti, Kremer, Alemanno and Lavanini are a fantastic set of second and back rows. Tons of physicality, lineout options and carriers are usually very well suited to RWC games. The difference in how the breakdown gets refereed means it can be difficult to rely on attacking rucks in RWCs where refs from around the world come together the game as players do. Set-piece, physicality in contact and carriers usually work with most interpretations though.

The backs could also look very well balanced, hence should be rock solid defensively. For instance:

1.Chapparo 2.Montoya 3.Kodela 4.Lavanini 5.Alemanno 6.Petti/Kremer 7.Matera 8.Isa
9.Cubelli 10.Sanchez 11.Cordero 12.de la Fuente 13.Moroni 14.Imhoff/Delguy 15.Bofelli

It's also a group of players with a lot of experience together without looking past it. Most those players will have more than 40 caps for instance. Creevy will be 38 but he's a back up these days. Imhoff will be 35 but looks in cracking shape and they have Delguy as a strong back up.

Sides with smaller budgets were hit hardest by covid. Argentina have taken a massive blow with the Jags disappearing. Squads with that much talent I tend to think can suddenly improve a lot for a RWC though as the difference of having that prolonged period together is massive for them compared to nations with bigger budgets, more frequent camps, etc.

I'd hope England can get to a place where they'd beat them at full strength but I wouldn't be surprised if this Argentina side were to look very good with a bit of injury fortune and some more time together. Just a sneaky feeling is all.

We need an England side made up of where players should have played if we'd started again. Eastmond at 9, a long list of any big guy with speed or good hands at 12 including Simmonds, Barbeary, Cokanasiga.

KC,

Dont forget little Carreras our winger. in a big powerful side he is a wonderful tricky (yet strong) winger.

GF

There are a few other players not named there. Orlandi also at Falcons. Grondona is a talent in the back row. Juan Cruz Mallia seems to be progressing well in a good Toulouse side now. Lucas Paulos I've seen nothing off but has reportedly been a bright light in a poor Brive side. Likewise Joaquin Oviedo is well considered. Santiago Medrano and Facundo Gigena are useful reserve props too.

I don't think they'll suddenly win the RWC but I just look at their squad and see a lot of quality, experienced players around their prime, some good depth and a smattering of genuinely world class players. It seems a combination that could come good if given that bit more time together that a RWC allows.

Good review about Fraser Dingwall in the rugby world magazine.

His stats across the board in both attack and defence are right at the top of the league for all Prem centres this season.

Hope he gets a good run in OZ

I've been a Dingwall fan since his U20 days as he's always looked a classy player but he is very slight for an international centre so I'll be curious to see how he goes if given a chance. Playing a decent number of games at 12 this season seems to have helped his development along once again though.

I think he looks more likely to be an international centre than Porter for instance who has more versatility and is stronger in contact but I don't think has the same natural instincts in attack where Dingwall is really good at picking a support line off the ball or finding a support player when he's got the ball.

I'm hoping we'll see Dingwall in the 22 shirt with a back three player at 23 rather than the 6-2 bench split. I like the 6-2 split with the right players as well. I just think that the combination of us being a bit weaker at lock now and Itoje almost always playing 80 minutes if able reduces the impact the extra forward can have.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:With the exception of the scrum halves and Smith, just about every back can cover multiple positions at a decent standard, Farrell 10/12, Marchant 13/14, Freeman 11/14/15 and at a push 13, Nowell 11,14,13, (7), Steward 15/14, May 11/14/15, Dingwall 12/13, Cokanasiga 14/13, Furbank 15/10.

I have even seen Care act as an emergency wing and do well, but that was some time ago.

I've never seen Cokanasiga play anywhere but on the wing and would be pretty terrified at the prospect him having to defend the 13 channel.

It's been 4 years since Nowell started a game at 13, but I would be a lot more confident of him filling in there. He's actually spent a lot more time at full back than he has in midfield over his career.

king_carlos wrote:GF

There are a few other players not named there. Orlandi also at Falcons. Grondona is a talent in the back row. Juan Cruz Mallia seems to be progressing well in a good Toulouse side now.

I don't think they'll suddenly win the RWC but I just look at their squad and see a lot of quality, experienced players around their prime, some good depth and a smattering of genuinely world class players. It seems a combination that could come good if given that bit more time together that a RWC allows.

KC, I guess we will see their potential by the end of the 3 match series against Scotland. With Kinghorn as our likely starting 10 and his club teammate Bofello the likely 15 for the Pumas, I am not fancying our chances!

I don't think Jones needs any more temptation to play players outside of their club positions anyway! I'd quite like to see round pegs in round holes and give the players as much chance as possible to excel. I am interested to see what he does at 12 13; probably 13 is the only position I would be a little clueless in guessing who will start. Marchant is the obvious but could see Dingwall of Porter playing there.

Seems to be a toss up for most pundits as to how well we'll play. We should surely be winning at least 2.

First Choice
12 Farrell
13 Marchant

Then looking at getting Dingwall & Porter involved
12 Dingwall
13 Marchant

12 Farrell
13 Porter

12 Farrell
13 Dingwall
etc
etc
etc
etc

I'd say 12 seems one of the most obvious selections to call. If both are fit it seems all the eggs are going in the 10.Smith 12.Farrell basket.

Our best 2 players in those positions I'd say, would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Tuilagi been fit, perhaps an easier choice of him and Farrell in midfield swapping. Although Marchant looks to have the skill set to excel it just seems Jones sees him a bit as a jack of all trades.

I think Marchant has been used as he should so far. I think he's a rare player who's genuinely very good in multiple positions. He's a very good 13 and winger. I'm happy seeing him used as both.

His high ball work is a vital part of that. It's rare for a centre to be that good competing for the ball in the air. He's also quick enough to cover wing.

Marchant on the wing to me is very different to Slade being shoehorned into 12 or Manu on the wing.

I'm usually the guy railing against 'versatility' in selection as well. In Lions discussion especially. Players such as Slade suddenly become indispensable in the eyes of some pundits because "they cover 4 positions". Even though Slade's actually about as likely to play 10 as Sinckler, covered 15 for about half an hour and has largely been rubbish at 12. So in reality he covers 13 to a worse standard than several other Lions options but every 4 years pundits argue such players warrant a squad place because they have occasionally, and often badly, played other positions they won't be selected in either. 

I think for me it's probably more to do with the disappointment of players I would consider out and out wingers such as Radwan or H-C not getting starts ahead of him, Steward, Malins.

Agree on Steward and Malins.

I honestly think Marchant is a better winger than Radwan and OHC at this stage though. Better in the air, better kicking game, better positioning, better support lines. Radwan is quicker with better footwork and OHC has more power but Marchant for me is the better all round player than either currently.

Arundell I could see being similar to Marchant in playing multiple positions to a similar standard. He's got all the skills to be a great fullback but his pace and footwork means he could be an incredible winger too.

All round player I'd agree. Better winger not so sure. Yes I hope Arundell gets 10 mins at some point just to start to acclimatise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61992784


England team to face Australia: Steward; Nowell, Marchant, Farrell, Cokanasiga; Smith, Care; Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes (capt), Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, M Vunipola, Heyes, Chessum, Ludlam, Van Poortlviet, Porter, Arundell.


Mostly as expected, but some eye openers at scrum half and on the bench...

1. Angus Bell (16 Tests)
2. David Porecki*
3. Allan Ala'alatoa (53 Tests)
4. Darcy Swain (10 Tests)
5. Cadeyrn Neville*
6. Rob Leota (6 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (c) (118 Tests)
8. Rob Valetini (18 Tests)

9. Nic White (47 Tests)
10. Quade Cooper (75 Tests)
11. Marika Koroibete (42 Tests)
12. Samu Kerevi (38 Tests)
13. Len Ikitau (13 Tests)
14. Andrew Kellaway (13 Tests)
15. Tom Banks (19 Tests)

Replacements
16. Folau Fainga'a (25 Tests)
17. Scott Sio (69 Tests)
18. James Slipper (114 Tests)
19. Matt Philip (20 Tests)
20. Pete Samu (19 Tests)
21. Jake Gordon (10 Tests)
22. Noah Lolesio (9 Tests)
23. Jordan Petaia (16 Tests)

A backline that has a mix of youth and experience. However, lacks pace with Farrell,  Nowell and Steward all starting. If Oz generate quick ball England may struggle to contain their attack.
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?
At least he should have had a lot of tackling practice!
Seems Underhill had paid for his non appearance against the Ba Ba's.
Ludicrously inexperienced bench backs. Can you imagine if three early injuries/ Hia' s in the backline ?
Although maybe Jones is taking a leaf out of Galthie' s playbook from last year. He blooded about a dozen players in Australia.
One of whose number, Melvin Jaminet went on to be Les Bleus fullback and goal kicker for the grand slam team. Up untill then he had been playing second division rugby with Perpingnan.
So maybe one of this threesome will work their way into the squad for next season.

It is quite something seeing Arundell on the bench. I don't have any worries about him in attack, but not so sure about the rest of his game

Im worried about Koroibete giving Coka a lesson in speed.

I like the look of this side. We have all been calling for some youth to be added, and with JVP, Arundell, Porter, Chessum, Heyes etc coupled with the experience of Care, Farrell, Lawes, Itoje, Curry and and the Vunipola brothers we should in theory get a good mix.

In other news, Charlie Ewels is out of the tour with a knee injury. Whilst I don't wish bad luck on anyone, will it be the last we see of him in an England shirt?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im worried about Koroibete giving Coka a lesson in speed.

Different sides of the pitch though. But yes, I share your worry. Secretly hoping that big Joe will sit someone down like he did with Dane Haylett-Petty.

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https://www.606v2.com/viewtopic.php?t=70748

"England suffer humiliating defeat to Australia"

https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/rugby-union/60573211

Wtf BBC