European competitions Early April rounds

by neilthom7 Fri 08 Apr 2022, 8:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

Didn't see a thread for the early April games of the European tournaments so thought I'd start this one. Champions Cup last 16 (2 legs) and last round of the Challenge Cup group stage.

Friday 15th April 2022

Champions Cup
Leinster v Connacht- 17:30
Bristol v Sale- 20:00

Challenge Cup

Biarritz Olympique v Wasps- 17:30
London Irish v Castres- 17:30
Lyon v Worcester Warriors- 20:00
Newcastle Falcons v Glasgow Warriors- 20:00

Saturday 16th April 2022

Champions Cup
Harlequins v Montpellier- 12:30
La Rochelle v Bordeaux Bègles- 15:00
Munster v Exeter Chiefs- 15:00
Leicester Tigers v ASM Clermont Auvergne- 17:30
Ulster v Toulouse- 20:00

Challenge Cup
Edinburgh v Bath- 20:00
Gloucester v Northampton Saints- 20:00
Toulon v Benetton- 20:00

Sunday 17th April 2022

Saracens v Cardiff- 13:00- Challenge Cup

Racing 92 v Stade Francais- 15:30- Champions Cup

by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Apr 2022, 3:45 pm

Both should have been reds. Really didn't agree with Dickson's explanations during the game (no surprise he's there because he's an ex player), haven't seen the reasons for the panels decisions though.

In a worse decision have you seen the Axel Muller 'tackle' that was really assault? He's got 5 weeks for it which is horrendously low.

by Hazel Sapling Thu 14 Apr 2022, 3:50 pm

MichaelT wrote:Predicted quarter finals

Leinster v Leicester
Munster v Ulster
Bristol v Racing
La Rochelle v Harlequins

Not sure on Quins/ Montpellier but fingers crossed. Leinster v Leicester should be a cracker, shame it won't be a final. If the final is Leinster v La Rochelle or Racing it doesn't sound much cop.

TL;DR
Leinster vs Leicester
Exeter vs Ulster
Sale vs Racing
La Rochelle vs Quins

Quins as 14 point favourites at home to Montpellier? I tend to agree, I think Quins will do it as the weather should be decent and they have the attacking ability. Montpellier are going to have to go for it and I can see a situation where they turtle early, fail to get much of a lead and Quins get stuff to come off in the last 20 when Montpellier tires.

I hope Ulster can do it and will give them the benefit of a doubt. They have had a tough run of games, at some point they will have to have a break (sweet relief of having Munster at home and Edinburgh away to follow).

Munster as 5 point favourites at home to Exeter? Less sure on that one. I think Exeter have the pack and the experience to take the game to Munster who are missing a few players.

I would have Sale over Bristol as that is pretty much a toss-up. Something is off at Bristol and Sale have a pack that can tear Bristol's apart.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 14 Apr 2022, 5:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Both should have been reds. Really didn't agree with Dickson's explanations during the game (no surprise he's there because he's an ex player), haven't seen the reasons for the panels decisions though.

In a worse decision have you seen the Axel Muller 'tackle' that was really assault? He's got 5 weeks for it which is horrendously low.

Agreed. I thought the six weeks was harsh given the accidental nature of the accident. I thought they could have gone in at the low end point and just banned him for the second leg. As it stands he'll miss Clermont, Quins and the PRC semi he wouldn't have played in anyway.

I presume Muller got 10 weeks reduced down to 5. Lucky boy, that tackle was a shocker.

by doctor_grey Thu 14 Apr 2022, 9:05 pm

I thought the Axel Muller play was one of the worst in quite a while. With only 5 weeks, he got off easy.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 14 Apr 2022, 9:24 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Gibson Park avoids a ban for that cheap shot but Porter gets six weeks reduced to three for his accidental collision. Nice consistent decisions as per usual.

The Leicester Tigers centre, Guy Porter, has been suspended for three weeks following an independent Disciplinary Hearing by video conference arising from his club’s Heineken Champions Cup, Round of 16 1st leg match against ASM Clermont Auvergne at the Stade Marcel-Michelin.

Porter was sent off by the referee, Nika Amashukeli (Georgia), in the 60th minute of the match for making contact with the head of the ASM Clermont Auvergne No 8, Fritz Lee, in a reckless manner in contravention of Law 9.11.

Law 9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others
Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.11 carries the following sanction entry points – Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks.

Roger Morris (Wales), chair, David Humphreys (Ireland) and Frank Hadden (Scotland), considered video imagery of the incident and heard submissions from the player, who did not accept the red card decision, from the player’s legal representative, John Shea, from the Leicester Tigers General Manager, Leigh Jones, and from the EPCR Disciplinary Officer, Liam McTiernan.

The committee upheld the red card decision, finding that Porter had committed a reckless act of foul play that warranted a red card. It then determined that the offending was at the mid-range of World Rugby’s sanctions and six weeks was selected as the appropriate entry point.

Due to the player’s clear disciplinary record and his concern for Lee following the incident, it was decided to grant the full 50% mitigation and the committee therefore reduced the sanction by three weeks before imposing a three-week suspension.

As Leicester Tigers are scheduled to play a Premiership Rugby Cup semi-final on Tuesday, 26 April, Porter is free to play on Wednesday, 27 April. However, if he applies for and completes a World Rugby Coaching Intervention, he will be free to play on Monday, 25 April.

Both the player and EPCR have the right to appeal the decision.

I've seen plenty of discussion surrounding this incident, but I haven't heard anybody (including many Connacht fans) refer to it as a cheap shot? Even Connacht's head coach Andy Friend agreed with the yellow card.

https://www.the42.ie/andy-friend-yellow-leinster-5734256-Apr2022/

by formerly known as Sam Fri 15 Apr 2022, 8:16 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Gibson Park avoids a ban for that cheap shot but Porter gets six weeks reduced to three for his accidental collision. Nice consistent decisions as per usual.

The Leicester Tigers centre, Guy Porter, has been suspended for three weeks following an independent Disciplinary Hearing by video conference arising from his club’s Heineken Champions Cup, Round of 16 1st leg match against ASM Clermont Auvergne at the Stade Marcel-Michelin.

Porter was sent off by the referee, Nika Amashukeli (Georgia), in the 60th minute of the match for making contact with the head of the ASM Clermont Auvergne No 8, Fritz Lee, in a reckless manner in contravention of Law 9.11.

Law 9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others
Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.11 carries the following sanction entry points – Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks.

Roger Morris (Wales), chair, David Humphreys (Ireland) and Frank Hadden (Scotland), considered video imagery of the incident and heard submissions from the player, who did not accept the red card decision, from the player’s legal representative, John Shea, from the Leicester Tigers General Manager, Leigh Jones, and from the EPCR Disciplinary Officer, Liam McTiernan.

The committee upheld the red card decision, finding that Porter had committed a reckless act of foul play that warranted a red card. It then determined that the offending was at the mid-range of World Rugby’s sanctions and six weeks was selected as the appropriate entry point.

Due to the player’s clear disciplinary record and his concern for Lee following the incident, it was decided to grant the full 50% mitigation and the committee therefore reduced the sanction by three weeks before imposing a three-week suspension.

As Leicester Tigers are scheduled to play a Premiership Rugby Cup semi-final on Tuesday, 26 April, Porter is free to play on Wednesday, 27 April. However, if he applies for and completes a World Rugby Coaching Intervention, he will be free to play on Monday, 25 April.

Both the player and EPCR have the right to appeal the decision.
I've seen plenty of discussion surrounding this incident, but I haven't heard anybody (including many Connacht fans) refer to it as a cheap shot? Even Connacht's head coach Andy Friend agreed with the yellow card.

https://www.the42.ie/andy-friend-yellow-leinster-5734256-Apr2022/

It was a decision entirely in keeping with the ref Dickson's previous interpretation, see Biggar on Radrada the weekend previous. For me Gibson-Park has no need to put the shoulder into his opposite number, there's cover already. No attempt at a legal tackle, it's always high and exactly the type of tackle World Rugby said they wanted to get out the game. Clear shoulder to head contact and no mitigating factors, complete farce it wasn't red and a ban.

Andy Friend isn't going to rock the boat and risk a disciplinary hearing of his own by saying it's a farce and the committee are useless. The fact there was a different citing committee for each citing meant that there was no consistency between decisions for last weekend either.

That aside I'm looking forward to watching two games as a neutral and this is one. Connacht need to attack which is what they do best and Leinster are at home so will be full of swagger. Hopefully results in an end to end game.

The other is Quins Vs Montpellier not least because it's a big test for Smith's game management, he won't be able to rely on Care to dictate things because that's not Care's game. Quins can't let Montpellier get in front and build on the 14 point advantage they already have. Smith will have to box clever and work on moving the big French team around to tire them out so Quins lightening attack can take advantage. Montpellier I suspect will be looking to kick points via pens and drop goals at any opportunity just to pile the pressure on.

by Poorfour Fri 15 Apr 2022, 6:03 pm

Why are Leinster and Connacht being allowed to play in essentially the same colour kit?

by geoff999rugby Fri 15 Apr 2022, 7:46 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:
MichaelT wrote:Predicted quarter finals

Leinster v Leicester
Munster v Ulster
Bristol v Racing
La Rochelle v Harlequins

Not sure on Quins/ Montpellier but fingers crossed. Leinster v Leicester should be a cracker, shame it won't be a final. If the final is Leinster v La Rochelle or Racing it doesn't sound much cop.

TL;DR
Leinster vs Leicester
Exeter vs Ulster
Sale vs Racing
La Rochelle vs Quins
.

To clarify if Ulster qualify they will be at home to Munster or Exeter not away

by Poorfour Fri 15 Apr 2022, 8:20 pm

Cracking 50:22 from Randall, there

by westisbest Fri 15 Apr 2022, 8:29 pm

Not a great result for Connacht. But Leinster are a class outfit. Would have been a huge effort for Connacht to win.

In the challenge cup, great win for Irish. Racking up a 10 try win. Great stuff.

by Geordie Fri 15 Apr 2022, 9:38 pm

The difference in pace that these two teams play the game at is frightening....

We need a new set of coaches...more modern thinking. We might not have their level of players but we need to be playing at a pace and tempo that suits our players.

by Geordie Fri 15 Apr 2022, 9:51 pm

Finnily enough In the last 15 mins...we've upped the pace and aggression alot. But why do it sporadically when we're a huge amount of points down meh.

Or is it because Glasgow have taken the foot off the pedal...

by Geordie Sat 16 Apr 2022, 2:17 pm

Aahh Marcus Smith

by tigertattie Sat 16 Apr 2022, 2:22 pm

Marcus does a Finn.

It’s all well and good making that spectacular break for a try in the first half but if you can’t slot a conversion from inside your 22 with a lovely easy angle, well, only have yourself to blame.

Hopefully he doesn’t do another Finn and Marcus actually learns from it

by **BigGee** Sat 16 Apr 2022, 2:22 pm

You would have put your mortgage on Smith kicking that one!

Just shows, nothing is ever certain!

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 16 Apr 2022, 2:26 pm

Thoughts turn back to the end of the first leg, when the clock was red, and Quins tried playing from inside their own 22, when they could have banked an 11 point deficit. They ended up giving away a penalty, which widened the first leg gap to 14.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Apr 2022, 4:43 pm

Shame for the comp as Harlequins are probably the best team to watch.

by Brendan Sat 16 Apr 2022, 4:55 pm

Quinns do need to learn more game management. Would have to feel Tigers and Sarries would have kicked points a few more time.

Hard luck Exeter. Have to feel if Munster had been at home first Exeter may have won this tie. Have to feel Exeter left far to many points behind in both games.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Apr 2022, 4:59 pm

They wouldn't score the tries though.

by Brendan Sat 16 Apr 2022, 5:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:They wouldn't score the tries though.

Not sure if you are referring to Quinns or Exeter but both have the same issue. They focus so much on getting tries that they sometimes spend too long trying to get it.

For example if Exeter score tries from every 3 line outs in the opposition 22 but it takes them 5 mins for each atempt is that better than 6 points from 3 minutes for 3 shots at goal

by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Apr 2022, 6:01 pm

Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They wouldn't score the tries though.

Not sure if you are referring to Quinns or Exeter but both have the same issue. They focus so much on getting tries that they sometimes spend too long trying to get it.

For example if Exeter score tries from every 3 line outs in the opposition 22 but it takes them 5 mins for each atempt is that better than 6 points from 3 minutes for 3 shots at goal

Oh Harlequins. Didn't see the Exeter match was watching Man city Liverpool. Sounds like Exeter continues the watly their season has gone then in so far as they really didn't turn their possession into points as they consistently did in the last 5 years or so.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 16 Apr 2022, 7:12 pm

Not a bad try from Tigers.....

by formerly known as Sam Sat 16 Apr 2022, 7:13 pm

Typical, in weekends where there's been very lenient decisions on high tackles Tigers see a controversial red for Porter and then have a blind TMO insisting on a red card for Chessum.

by Brendan Sat 16 Apr 2022, 7:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They wouldn't score the tries though.

Not sure if you are referring to Quinns or Exeter but both have the same issue. They focus so much on getting tries that they sometimes spend too long trying to get it.

For example if Exeter score tries from every 3 line outs in the opposition 22 but it takes them 5 mins for each atempt is that better than 6 points from 3 minutes for 3 shots at goal
Oh Harlequins. Didn't see the Exeter match was watching Man city Liverpool. Sounds like Exeter continues the watly their season has gone then in so far as they really didn't turn their possession into points as they consistently did in the last 5 years or so.

With Quinns you feel 15 minutes to go you take the points to close within 3. They made ground well between the 22s (only saw the second half) but it was hard going inside the 22.

All the points for the 2 legs for Quinns all came from tries. It will get them so far (I know they won the Prem) but against smarter teams such as Sarries they will come up short in the matches that matter. Just taking a quick look at results the last time Quinns scored a penalty was Feb 25th in the Prem. When Monpellier went up to the Quinns 22 at the very end Pollard was in the pocket if the 9 wanted to give it to him, not sure if Quinns were down the other end they would have done the same. This then makes me wonder can Smith get the experience he needs at Quinns to be a great international 10 if they aren't going to make him kick goals when the defence is alot tighter and us something that BB has struggled with in tight games.

Exeter had a similar problem apart from the Hogg drop goal they only scored tries and lost because they didn't score any penalties from their many chances and teams like Munster will happily defend the line with dark arts if they know no goals will get kicked.

Because the two teams don't kick many penalties which are alot more pressure than conversions the kickers don't do so well when the pressure comes on it would appear to me, which is maybe why Exeter missed the 2 conversions and a few penalty attempts, Carbry who has been kicking penalties all season on the other hand was the difference on the scoreboard in the end.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Apr 2022, 8:05 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Typical, in weekends where there's been very lenient decisions on high tackles Tigers see a controversial red for Porter and then have a blind TMO insisting on a red card for Chessum.

Both reds though?

by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Apr 2022, 8:08 pm

Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They wouldn't score the tries though.

Not sure if you are referring to Quinns or Exeter but both have the same issue. They focus so much on getting tries that they sometimes spend too long trying to get it.

For example if Exeter score tries from every 3 line outs in the opposition 22 but it takes them 5 mins for each atempt is that better than 6 points from 3 minutes for 3 shots at goal
Oh Harlequins. Didn't see the Exeter match was watching Man city Liverpool. Sounds like Exeter continues the watly their season has gone then in so far as they really didn't turn their possession into points as they consistently did in the last 5 years or so.

With Quinns you feel 15 minutes to go you take the points to close within 3. They made ground well between the 22s (only saw the second half) but it was hard going inside the 22.

All the points for the 2 legs for Quinns all came from tries. It will get them so far (I know they won the Prem) but against smarter teams such as Sarries they will come up short in the matches that matter. Just taking a quick look at results the last time Quinns scored a penalty was Feb 25th in the Prem. When Monpellier went up to the Quinns 22 at the very end Pollard was in the pocket if the 9 wanted to give it to him, not sure if Quinns were down the other end they would have done the same. This then makes me wonder can Smith get the experience he needs at Quinns to be a great international 10 if they aren't going to make him kick goals when the defence is alot tighter and us something that BB has struggled with in tight games.

Exeter had a similar problem apart from the Hogg drop goal they only scored tries and lost because they didn't score any penalties from their many chances and teams like Munster will happily defend the line with dark arts if they know no goals will get kicked.

Because the two teams don't kick many penalties which are alot more pressure than conversions the kickers don't do so well when the pressure comes on it would appear to me, which is maybe why Exeter missed the 2 conversions and a few penalty attempts, Carbry who has been kicking penalties all season on the other hand was the difference on the scoreboard in the end.

Well both Harlequins and Exeter have traditionally gone for tries over taking points and have been in the top 3 most successful in the prem over the last few years so clearly works. Re Smith I guess you'd need to look at his points scored and percentage conversation in internationals and at club level. Once you have I think we could put that point to bed quickly!

by Maine man Sat 16 Apr 2022, 8:36 pm

Toulouse looking up for it tonight

by nathan Sat 16 Apr 2022, 9:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Typical, in weekends where there's been very lenient decisions on high tackles Tigers see a controversial red for Porter and then have a blind TMO insisting on a red card for Chessum.
Both reds though?

First one debatable, today's definitely a yellow at worse.

TMO said direct contact to the Head. It was clear first contact was on the shoulder then road up, but debatable if there is any contact with the head as you see no sudden head movement.

The refs in rugby are starting to piss me off.

by **BigGee** Sat 16 Apr 2022, 9:46 pm

That has just killed Ulster I fear.

Dupont scores, who else!

by **BigGee** Sat 16 Apr 2022, 9:54 pm

Tough one for Ulster, they played well and unfortunately the red card probably proved the difference between the teams.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 16 Apr 2022, 9:56 pm

nathan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Typical, in weekends where there's been very lenient decisions on high tackles Tigers see a controversial red for Porter and then have a blind TMO insisting on a red card for Chessum.
Both reds though?

First one debatable, today's definitely a yellow at worse.

TMO said direct contact to the Head. It was clear first contact was on the shoulder then road up, but debatable if there is any contact with the head as you see no sudden head movement.

The refs in rugby are starting to piss me off.

Exactly that. Porter was a strong yellow, unfortunate red. Chessum's was no more than yellow. I have no idea what the TMO thought she was looking at but it wasn't what the replays clearly showed. Hopefully it will be thrown out by the citing commission but I doubt we'll be that lucky.

by Brendan Sun 17 Apr 2022, 12:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They wouldn't score the tries though.

Not sure if you are referring to Quinns or Exeter but both have the same issue. They focus so much on getting tries that they sometimes spend too long trying to get it.

For example if Exeter score tries from every 3 line outs in the opposition 22 but it takes them 5 mins for each atempt is that better than 6 points from 3 minutes for 3 shots at goal
Oh Harlequins. Didn't see the Exeter match was watching Man city Liverpool. Sounds like Exeter continues the watly their season has gone then in so far as they really didn't turn their possession into points as they consistently did in the last 5 years or so.

With Quinns you feel 15 minutes to go you take the points to close within 3. They made ground well between the 22s (only saw the second half) but it was hard going inside the 22.

All the points for the 2 legs for Quinns all came from tries. It will get them so far (I know they won the Prem) but against smarter teams such as Sarries they will come up short in the matches that matter. Just taking a quick look at results the last time Quinns scored a penalty was Feb 25th in the Prem. When Monpellier went up to the Quinns 22 at the very end Pollard was in the pocket if the 9 wanted to give it to him, not sure if Quinns were down the other end they would have done the same. This then makes me wonder can Smith get the experience he needs at Quinns to be a great international 10 if they aren't going to make him kick goals when the defence is alot tighter and us something that BB has struggled with in tight games.

Exeter had a similar problem apart from the Hogg drop goal they only scored tries and lost because they didn't score any penalties from their many chances and teams like Munster will happily defend the line with dark arts if they know no goals will get kicked.

Because the two teams don't kick many penalties which are alot more pressure than conversions the kickers don't do so well when the pressure comes on it would appear to me, which is maybe why Exeter missed the 2 conversions and a few penalty attempts, Carbry who has been kicking penalties all season on the other hand was the difference on the scoreboard in the end.
Well both Harlequins and Exeter have traditionally gone for tries over taking points and have been in the top 3 most successful in the prem over the last few years so clearly works. Re Smith I guess you'd need to look at his points scored and percentage conversation in internationals and at club level. Once you have I think we could put that point to bed quickly!

Not sure of the stats just going off what I see in games. Smith was the 10 in the second half of the Italy game that went 30 minutes without scoring. With him at the helm England scored 8 tries, 5 against Italy. With the better defences he was unable to do much.

Can't find how many kicks he took at goal v scored/missed but he missed a few easy ones, maybe lack of concentration or pressure who knows. If Farrell or Ford were playing today would they have taken the ball at a certain point and kicked for the posts (or in the previous match). Smith is happy to sit back and not take control and just worries about running the ball. Not sure how far that will take him as a 10 at the top level.

He doesn't kick penalties for his club week in week out how is he going to improve kicking them in the heat of battle when things are on the line. Can Smith land a penalty in a WC semi in the last few minutes. For quinns he has a 9 who protects him by making some decisions and Care himself isn't a bad runner.

Quinns and Exeter may have been 2 and 3 in England but Sarries know how to win big games. Now they are back in the Prem they are ahead of them again. Sarries I don't think would have lost because they would have kept the scoreboard ticking over, neither Exeter nor Quinns did that. It's interesting that even though Tigers were well ahead over the two legs they choose to kick a penalty in the 45th min keep the score ticking over.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 5:16 am

nathan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Typical, in weekends where there's been very lenient decisions on high tackles Tigers see a controversial red for Porter and then have a blind TMO insisting on a red card for Chessum.
Both reds though?

First one debatable, today's definitely a yellow at worse.

TMO said direct contact to the Head. It was clear first contact was on the shoulder then road up, but debatable if there is any contact with the head as you see no sudden head movement.

The refs in rugby are starting to piss me off.

Hmm. Think it was red myself.
Used an old link....Will try to find the right one.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 5:18 am

Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They wouldn't score the tries though.

Not sure if you are referring to Quinns or Exeter but both have the same issue. They focus so much on getting tries that they sometimes spend too long trying to get it.

For example if Exeter score tries from every 3 line outs in the opposition 22 but it takes them 5 mins for each atempt is that better than 6 points from 3 minutes for 3 shots at goal
Oh Harlequins. Didn't see the Exeter match was watching Man city Liverpool. Sounds like Exeter continues the watly their season has gone then in so far as they really didn't turn their possession into points as they consistently did in the last 5 years or so.

With Quinns you feel 15 minutes to go you take the points to close within 3. They made ground well between the 22s (only saw the second half) but it was hard going inside the 22.

All the points for the 2 legs for Quinns all came from tries. It will get them so far (I know they won the Prem) but against smarter teams such as Sarries they will come up short in the matches that matter. Just taking a quick look at results the last time Quinns scored a penalty was Feb 25th in the Prem. When Monpellier went up to the Quinns 22 at the very end Pollard was in the pocket if the 9 wanted to give it to him, not sure if Quinns were down the other end they would have done the same. This then makes me wonder can Smith get the experience he needs at Quinns to be a great international 10 if they aren't going to make him kick goals when the defence is alot tighter and us something that BB has struggled with in tight games.

Exeter had a similar problem apart from the Hogg drop goal they only scored tries and lost because they didn't score any penalties from their many chances and teams like Munster will happily defend the line with dark arts if they know no goals will get kicked.

Because the two teams don't kick many penalties which are alot more pressure than conversions the kickers don't do so well when the pressure comes on it would appear to me, which is maybe why Exeter missed the 2 conversions and a few penalty attempts, Carbry who has been kicking penalties all season on the other hand was the difference on the scoreboard in the end.
Well both Harlequins and Exeter have traditionally gone for tries over taking points and have been in the top 3 most successful in the prem over the last few years so clearly works. Re Smith I guess you'd need to look at his points scored and percentage conversation in internationals and at club level. Once you have I think we could put that point to bed quickly!

Not sure of the stats just going off what I see in games. Smith was the 10 in the second half of the Italy game that went 30 minutes without scoring. With him at the helm England scored 8 tries, 5 against Italy. With the better defences he was unable to do much.

Can't find how many kicks he took at goal v scored/missed but he missed a few easy ones, maybe lack of concentration or pressure who knows. If Farrell or Ford were playing today would they have taken the ball at a certain point and kicked for the posts (or in the previous match). Smith is happy to sit back and not take control and just worries about running the ball. Not sure how far that will take him as a 10 at the top level.

He doesn't kick penalties for his club week in week out how is he going to improve kicking them in the heat of battle when things are on the line. Can Smith land a penalty in a WC semi in the last few minutes. For quinns he has a 9 who protects him by making some decisions and Care himself isn't a bad runner.

Quinns and Exeter may have been 2 and 3 in England but Sarries know how to win big games. Now they are back in the Prem they are ahead of them again. Sarries I don't think would have lost because they would have kept the scoreboard ticking over, neither Exeter nor Quinns did that. It's interesting that even though Tigers were well ahead over the two legs they choose to kick a penalty in the 45th min keep the score ticking over.

Tell me you don't watch many games with Dmith without telling me.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 6:07 am

Won't let me copy the link on the hhgh tackle process but if you Google 'world rugby Head Contact Process announced in March 2021' it'll come up. Following that through you can see that Chessum's action could be deemed unworthy of any mitigation.
I wouldn't be looking to blame the tmo or ref there, surely it's Chessums poor technique?

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 17 Apr 2022, 6:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Won't let me copy the link on the hhgh tackle process but if you Google 'world rugby Head Contact Process announced in March 2021' it'll come up. Following that through you can see that Chessum's action could be deemed unworthy of any mitigation.
I wouldn't be looking to blame the tmo or ref there, surely it's Chessums poor technique?

I didn't see the Potter one but I caught the Chessum tackle. I didn't have the sound on but it looked a clear red by todays standards, shoulder to head. Maybe he brushed the shoulder but he's way too high....I only watched the one replay but I can't see much wrong with the red tbh.

Kelly looked to have pulled up hard with a hamstring, any news on him?

It was a decent game anyway, Tigers played well. I thought Heyes struggled in the scrum a first but really got on top as the game developed...he's coming on well. Is that JvP as the clear option at 9 now? He played well.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Apr 2022, 7:50 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Won't let me copy the link on the hhgh tackle process but if you Google 'world rugby Head Contact Process announced in March 2021' it'll come up. Following that through you can see that Chessum's action could be deemed unworthy of any mitigation.
I wouldn't be looking to blame the tmo or ref there, surely it's Chessums poor technique?

I didn't see the Potter one but I caught the Chessum tackle. I didn't have the sound on but it looked a clear red by todays standards, shoulder to head. Maybe he brushed the shoulder but he's way too high....I only watched the one replay but I can't see much wrong with the red tbh.

Kelly looked to have pulled up hard with a hamstring, any news on him?

It was a decent game anyway, Tigers played well. I thought Heyes struggled in the scrum a first but really got on top as the game developed...he's coming on well. Is that JvP as the clear option at 9 now? He played well.

JVP has been rotated with Youngs and Wigglesworth all season, I think Borthwick wanted to reward the display he put in, in France so started this one again. He's maturing nicely and Clermont really went hard on pressuring him and Ford after they controlled the game last weekend.

Kelly's looks bad, no news yet but I doubt we'll see him much for the rest of the season.

The Chessum incident you might need more replays. I can only assume he was cream crackered because he doesn't normally tackle that badly. It wasn't great and I'm sure he'll be kicking himself that he didn't go lower but given Gibson-Park's was upheld as only yellow than this as a red showed an annoying lack of consistency.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 8:47 am

I was actually quite relieved by his injury after seeing the likes of Christian Erikssen fall to the ground like that. Looks to be it until next season though surely.

by **BigGee** Sun 17 Apr 2022, 10:58 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Won't let me copy the link on the hhgh tackle process but if you Google 'world rugby Head Contact Process announced in March 2021' it'll come up. Following that through you can see that Chessum's action could be deemed unworthy of any mitigation.
I wouldn't be looking to blame the tmo or ref there, surely it's Chessums poor technique?

I didn't see the Potter one but I caught the Chessum tackle. I didn't have the sound on but it looked a clear red by todays standards, shoulder to head. Maybe he brushed the shoulder but he's way too high....I only watched the one replay but I can't see much wrong with the red tbh.

Kelly looked to have pulled up hard with a hamstring, any news on him?

It was a decent game anyway, Tigers played well. I thought Heyes struggled in the scrum a first but really got on top as the game developed...he's coming on well. Is that JvP as the clear option at 9 now? He played well.

JVP has been rotated with Youngs and Wigglesworth all season, I think Borthwick wanted to reward the display he put in, in France so started this one again. He's maturing nicely and Clermont really went hard on pressuring him and Ford after they controlled the game last weekend.

Kelly's looks bad, no news yet but I doubt we'll see him much for the rest of the season.

The Chessum incident you might need more replays. I can only assume he was cream crackered because he doesn't normally tackle that badly. It wasn't great and I'm sure he'll be kicking himself that he didn't go lower but given Gibson-Park's was upheld as only yellow than this as a red showed an annoying lack of consistency.

I think it might be judged as having a bit more intent than Gibson-Park and that may be just because he is a much much bigger bloke.

I thought it was probably a red as we to be fair. A careless tackle at the end of the game, he will be kicking hinself if he gets 3 weeks.

by doctor_grey Sun 17 Apr 2022, 12:51 pm

Just watched the Chessum red. I doubt there was any intent, but by the current laws interpretations it is a red.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Apr 2022, 2:13 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Just watched the Chessum red. I doubt there was any intent, but by the current laws interpretations it is a red.

I'm not sure what the current interpretations are anymore, Biggar and Gibson-Park were as bad and neither got more than a yellow card. It seems like the framework has become entirely guess work and applied with no consistency whatsoever. Biggar got away scot free on the basis his shoulder clipped the ball on the way to Radrada's face. Well on that basis Chessum's shoulder hits both arm and shoulder before the Clermont player's head. Gibson-Park got away because the player dipped, Clermont player drops his shoulder slightly into the tackle. Laughably Dickson said there was no force in the Gibson-Park challenge either and if that's the bar then there's definitely no force in Chessum's.

Tigers lawyer should take the commission to cleaners based on current rulings but let's face it the citing commissions don't work on that basis it's a complete mess and depends heavily on which citing members you get as each citing gets their own.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 2:40 pm

So acknowledging that everything is down to interpretation what would you say is the mitigation for Chessum and Porter?

by Heaf Sun 17 Apr 2022, 2:45 pm

Not sure about that Cardiff try ... thought his hand was underneath it then lost forwards

by Heaf Sun 17 Apr 2022, 2:59 pm

I see Biggar's luck finally ran out against Glaws ...

by mikey_dragon Sun 17 Apr 2022, 3:00 pm

Did it finish 40-33? Fair play to Cardiff, they were expected to lose 60 nil!

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Apr 2022, 3:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So acknowledging that everything is down to interpretation what would you say is the mitigation for Chessum and Porter?

Porter's was one of those 50/50 type things. He doesn't see Fritz Lee, apparently the sun was an issue in the second half for Tigers in that game. Clearly an accident so was going to be seen either as a rugby incident or a reckless challenge. Once the ref came down on reckless challenge he was always likely to get a ban. Touch harsh with the red but fair play to the ref he took his time and came out with good rationale for his decision.

Chessum's red card was given on the back of the TMO saying shoulder direct contact to head after little review time. Not only was that blatantly not the case the ref didn't go to either of the large screens at Welford Road to look for himself. Chessum's shoulder hits arm and shoulder before glancing up and onto the head. Like we often see it's the slight dip of the shoulder by the attacker that allows the shoulder to slip up but as a defender you should be anticipating that. The level of force was pretty minimal given the Clermont player's head isn't bounced about and he doesn't require a TMO, after Gibson-Park left his opposite number with a face like the Elephant Man and that was low force there's an argument there as well. I fully expect Tigers to accept the charge and then try to argue it down to yellow which means it they don't argue it down then he'll get max dispensation.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 5:22 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So acknowledging that everything is down to interpretation what would you say is the mitigation for Chessum and Porter?

Porter's was one of those 50/50 type things. He doesn't see Fritz Lee, apparently the sun was an issue in the second half for Tigers in that game. Clearly an accident so was going to be seen either as a rugby incident or a reckless challenge. Once the ref came down on reckless challenge he was always likely to get a ban. Touch harsh with the red but fair play to the ref he took his time and came out with good rationale for his decision.

Chessum's red card was given on the back of the TMO saying shoulder direct contact to head after little review time. Not only was that blatantly not the case the ref didn't go to either of the large screens at Welford Road to look for himself. Chessum's shoulder hits arm and shoulder before glancing up and onto the head. Like we often see it's the slight dip of the shoulder by the attacker that allows the shoulder to slip up but as a defender you should be anticipating that. The level of force was pretty minimal given the Clermont player's head isn't bounced about and he doesn't require a TMO, after Gibson-Park left his opposite number with a face like the Elephant Man and that was low force there's an argument there as well. I fully expect Tigers to accept the charge and then try to argue it down to yellow which means it they don't argue it down then he'll get max dispensation.

From your summary of Porter agree completely. Reckless so a red card.

Given Chessums run up not sure how anyone could say the force want there with a straight face.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Apr 2022, 8:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So acknowledging that everything is down to interpretation what would you say is the mitigation for Chessum and Porter?

Porter's was one of those 50/50 type things. He doesn't see Fritz Lee, apparently the sun was an issue in the second half for Tigers in that game. Clearly an accident so was going to be seen either as a rugby incident or a reckless challenge. Once the ref came down on reckless challenge he was always likely to get a ban. Touch harsh with the red but fair play to the ref he took his time and came out with good rationale for his decision.

Chessum's red card was given on the back of the TMO saying shoulder direct contact to head after little review time. Not only was that blatantly not the case the ref didn't go to either of the large screens at Welford Road to look for himself. Chessum's shoulder hits arm and shoulder before glancing up and onto the head. Like we often see it's the slight dip of the shoulder by the attacker that allows the shoulder to slip up but as a defender you should be anticipating that. The level of force was pretty minimal given the Clermont player's head isn't bounced about and he doesn't require a TMO, after Gibson-Park left his opposite number with a face like the Elephant Man and that was low force there's an argument there as well. I fully expect Tigers to accept the charge and then try to argue it down to yellow which means it they don't argue it down then he'll get max dispensation.
From your summary of Porter agree completely. Reckless so a red card.

Given Chessums run up not sure how anyone could say the force want there with a straight face.

Did you see the Gibson-Park incident and the state of the Connacht scrum Half's face afterwards? That was deemed low impact though the ref was Dickson who is at best incompetent but the citing panel ruled it only a yellow card. If that's deemed low impact then I'd suggest you could argue most tackles are.

by Heaf Mon 18 Apr 2022, 1:04 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Did it finish 40-33? Fair play to Cardiff, they were expected to lose 60 nil!

Yep - it was pretty close for most of the match tbh ..

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 18 Apr 2022, 5:09 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So acknowledging that everything is down to interpretation what would you say is the mitigation for Chessum and Porter?

Porter's was one of those 50/50 type things. He doesn't see Fritz Lee, apparently the sun was an issue in the second half for Tigers in that game. Clearly an accident so was going to be seen either as a rugby incident or a reckless challenge. Once the ref came down on reckless challenge he was always likely to get a ban. Touch harsh with the red but fair play to the ref he took his time and came out with good rationale for his decision.

Chessum's red card was given on the back of the TMO saying shoulder direct contact to head after little review time. Not only was that blatantly not the case the ref didn't go to either of the large screens at Welford Road to look for himself. Chessum's shoulder hits arm and shoulder before glancing up and onto the head. Like we often see it's the slight dip of the shoulder by the attacker that allows the shoulder to slip up but as a defender you should be anticipating that. The level of force was pretty minimal given the Clermont player's head isn't bounced about and he doesn't require a TMO, after Gibson-Park left his opposite number with a face like the Elephant Man and that was low force there's an argument there as well. I fully expect Tigers to accept the charge and then try to argue it down to yellow which means it they don't argue it down then he'll get max dispensation.
From your summary of Porter agree completely. Reckless so a red card.

Given Chessums run up not sure how anyone could say the force want there with a straight face.

Did you see the Gibson-Park incident and the state of the Connacht scrum Half's face afterwards? That was deemed low impact though the ref was Dickson who is at best incompetent but the citing panel ruled it only a yellow card. If that's deemed low impact then I'd suggest you could argue most tackles are.

I've watched both back now.

Chessum is a definite red, no argument there for me.....it's quite a straight forward one. I don't think Gibson Park was a red tbh, certainly not on the same level as Chessum anyway which was pretty obvious.

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