Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

ps the Best leaders surround themselves with the best people.   Not so good leaders surround themselves with those that are not going to challenge them.  So maybe the reason why it appears that there is a poor selection of candidates is partly due to Boris Johnson.  Another reason may be that the leadership qualities and the general competence levels of elected mps has declined.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And I personally wish that people from that wing of the Tory Party would leave it.

I'm surprised that you wish to see a Tory party that would never again get elected into Government.

I've never supported the Tory Party in my life.

You wish the Tory Party would expunge the moderates, leaving a very right-wing party that would never get elected - correct?

These are your words and your suppositions, not mine, so incorrect.

I wish the Conservative Party would be what is termed right-wing and have right-wing policies. Not necessarily 'very right-wing'. And it is your idea that such a party would never get elected, but they could be elected on such a platform. Of course, I think we differ on the definition of right-wing because you seem to believe that a top rate of tax at 40% is 'far-right', which sounds like lunacy.

'Expunge the moderates'? Expunge the Liberal Democrats, centrists and Blairites within, yes. If those people want a high-tax, high-regulation, big-government political vehicle, fine, but the Conservative Party should not be a place for people with not a single iota of conservatism in their veins - Sunak, Mordaunt, Wallace, Tugendhat, at least a 100 more etc.

You may wish to join the 21st century at some point.
Or move to Italy.

You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

I find it genuinely amusing how similar these far-right loons are to the arch-Corbynites within Labour. It's all about dogma.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And I personally wish that people from that wing of the Tory Party would leave it.

I'm surprised that you wish to see a Tory party that would never again get elected into Government.

I've never supported the Tory Party in my life.

You wish the Tory Party would expunge the moderates, leaving a very right-wing party that would never get elected - correct?

These are your words and your suppositions, not mine, so incorrect.

I wish the Conservative Party would be what is termed right-wing and have right-wing policies. Not necessarily 'very right-wing'. And it is your idea that such a party would never get elected, but they could be elected on such a platform. Of course, I think we differ on the definition of right-wing because you seem to believe that a top rate of tax at 40% is 'far-right', which sounds like lunacy.

'Expunge the moderates'? Expunge the Liberal Democrats, centrists and Blairites within, yes. If those people want a high-tax, high-regulation, big-government political vehicle, fine, but the Conservative Party should not be a place for people with not a single iota of conservatism in their veins - Sunak, Mordaunt, Wallace, Tugendhat, at least a 100 more etc.

You may wish to join the 21st century at some point.
Or move to Italy.

No thank you. To both.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And I personally wish that people from that wing of the Tory Party would leave it.

I'm surprised that you wish to see a Tory party that would never again get elected into Government.

I've never supported the Tory Party in my life.

You wish the Tory Party would expunge the moderates, leaving a very right-wing party that would never get elected - correct?

These are your words and your suppositions, not mine, so incorrect.

I wish the Conservative Party would be what is termed right-wing and have right-wing policies. Not necessarily 'very right-wing'. And it is your idea that such a party would never get elected, but they could be elected on such a platform. Of course, I think we differ on the definition of right-wing because you seem to believe that a top rate of tax at 40% is 'far-right', which sounds like lunacy.

'Expunge the moderates'? Expunge the Liberal Democrats, centrists and Blairites within, yes. If those people want a high-tax, high-regulation, big-government political vehicle, fine, but the Conservative Party should not be a place for people with not a single iota of conservatism in their veins - Sunak, Mordaunt, Wallace, Tugendhat, at least a 100 more etc.

You may wish to join the 21st century at some point.
Or move to Italy.

No thank you. To both.

Really? I thought the 21st century was a shining example of how much progress humankind had made in its ever-growing magnificence?

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And I personally wish that people from that wing of the Tory Party would leave it.

I'm surprised that you wish to see a Tory party that would never again get elected into Government.

I've never supported the Tory Party in my life.

You wish the Tory Party would expunge the moderates, leaving a very right-wing party that would never get elected - correct?

These are your words and your suppositions, not mine, so incorrect.

I wish the Conservative Party would be what is termed right-wing and have right-wing policies. Not necessarily 'very right-wing'. And it is your idea that such a party would never get elected, but they could be elected on such a platform. Of course, I think we differ on the definition of right-wing because you seem to believe that a top rate of tax at 40% is 'far-right', which sounds like lunacy.

'Expunge the moderates'? Expunge the Liberal Democrats, centrists and Blairites within, yes. If those people want a high-tax, high-regulation, big-government political vehicle, fine, but the Conservative Party should not be a place for people with not a single iota of conservatism in their veins - Sunak, Mordaunt, Wallace, Tugendhat, at least a 100 more etc.

You may wish to join the 21st century at some point.
Or move to Italy.

No thank you. To both.

Really? I thought the 21st century was a shining example of how much progress humankind had made in its ever-growing magnificence?

Glad to see you're on board, Julius.

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

The conservative party needs people just like me to get elected and it's people like me that have kept them in power for 12 years. Outdated ideology doesn't make people vote for you, nor is the party base right wing, it's centre right, the membership is not representative of the electorate. Abolishing the 45p tax was political suicide as highlighted by the very polls you cling to time and time again.

Sunak did was necessary to safeguard jobs through the pandemic and to be honest I have no time for your shameful anti lockdown viewpoint. It sickens me that you have such little regard for human life.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And I personally wish that people from that wing of the Tory Party would leave it.

I'm surprised that you wish to see a Tory party that would never again get elected into Government.

I've never supported the Tory Party in my life.

You wish the Tory Party would expunge the moderates, leaving a very right-wing party that would never get elected - correct?

These are your words and your suppositions, not mine, so incorrect.

I wish the Conservative Party would be what is termed right-wing and have right-wing policies. Not necessarily 'very right-wing'. And it is your idea that such a party would never get elected, but they could be elected on such a platform. Of course, I think we differ on the definition of right-wing because you seem to believe that a top rate of tax at 40% is 'far-right', which sounds like lunacy.

'Expunge the moderates'? Expunge the Liberal Democrats, centrists and Blairites within, yes. If those people want a high-tax, high-regulation, big-government political vehicle, fine, but the Conservative Party should not be a place for people with not a single iota of conservatism in their veins - Sunak, Mordaunt, Wallace, Tugendhat, at least a 100 more etc.

You may wish to join the 21st century at some point.
Or move to Italy.

No thank you. To both.

Really? I thought the 21st century was a shining example of how much progress humankind had made in its ever-growing magnificence?

Glad to see you're on board, Julius.

One of us has to be positive.

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

The conservative party needs people just like me to get elected and it's people like me that have kept them in power for 12 years. Outdated ideology doesn't make people vote for you, nor is the party base right wing, it's centre right, the membership is not representative of the electorate. Abolishing the 45p tax was political suicide as highlighted by the very polls you cling to time and time again.

Sunak did was necessary to safeguard jobs through the pandemic and to be honest I have no time for your shameful anti lockdown viewpoint. It sickens me that you have such little regard for human life.

It is not outdated ideology to lower the top rate of tax. Indeed, many countries have it lower than 45%. This is merely something you disagree with, but it does not make it outdated.

I do not cling to polls. I merely use them as informative signposts.

Your last sentence is quite unnecessary. As is being shown, the harm from the lockdown we engaged in is greater than the value of lives saved. You thought only for the short and medium term and, whilst I disagree with you, I respect this stance and do not see a need to abuse you for it. I have a high regard for human life, save that of murderers/rapists/terrorists who should be dispensed with.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

White supremacy is an old idea that is still alive and some people do try to bring it back, arguing that it is political diversity, as is, say, communism. Very few people are in favour of either - but you never know...

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

What if the centre is what's best for everyone overall? Why diverge away from that just for the sake of presenting alternatives?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

What if the centre is what's best for everyone overall? Why diverge away from that just for the sake of presenting alternatives?

That's fine, but there should only be one party in the centre, ideally. This race for the centre means many, such as myself, feel disenfranchised by the mainstream offering, while knowing that FPTP suffocates any realistic chance of an insurgent party breaking through on either the left or right.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

What if the centre is what's best for everyone overall? Why diverge away from that just for the sake of presenting alternatives?

That's fine, but there should only be one party in the centre, ideally. This race for the centre means many, such as myself, feel disenfranchised by the mainstream offering, while knowing that FPTP suffocates any realistic chance of an insurgent party breaking through on either the left or right.

It's almost as if, despite the vast intelligence of humankind, we still haven't figured out something as basic as the best political and economic policies.

While everyone is distracted by the U-turn on the 45p tax rate cut, Kwarteng quietly announced that local councils face £11bn of real term spending cuts as he isnt increasing their budgets to match inflation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kwarteng-public-spending-cuts-ifs-b2191759.html

£45bn worth of tax cuts to help the rich, but Frak the local councils who keep this country running. Shameful. The Tory way. Run everything into the ground so they can asset strip them and sell them to their donor pals in a fire sale.

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Have to disagree here on a few points. Abolishing the 45p tax rate WAS political suicide hence the abrupt U-Turn. In the grand scheme of things compared to the rest of the economy it's a tiny amount BUT the perception by the majority of people certainly those not higher earners is it's a tax cut for the rich. This has gone down extremely badly, it was all over the media and the only thing any reporter wanted to talk about to Tory MPs. Hence an immediate turn around 24hrs after Truss said she was sticking by it. This has a two fold effect, it appears Truss really only wants to help her rich Tory mates in business but then the U-Turn makes it seem she is swayed by the negative impact of it and so abolished it. Basically the optics look terrible.
As for who elected the Tories, well it wasn't just the right wing party base, remember the "red wall" votes? Lots of people voted for the Tories(in a lot of cases specifically Boris) who never did previously, this was a combination of Brexit and the utter shambles that was Corbyn led Labour.

Now of course it's all changed or will change next election. Boris gone, Truss is in and alienating her party and the general public so unless there is a massive change Labour will breeze through next GE by default.
Sunak for his faults had a much better grasp of the economy and would have been a far more credible PM than Truss.

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

The conservative party needs people just like me to get elected and it's people like me that have kept them in power for 12 years. Outdated ideology doesn't make people vote for you, nor is the party base right wing, it's centre right, the membership is not representative of the electorate. Abolishing the 45p tax was political suicide as highlighted by the very polls you cling to time and time again.

Sunak did was necessary to safeguard jobs through the pandemic and to be honest I have no time for your shameful anti lockdown viewpoint. It sickens me that you have such little regard for human life.

It is not outdated ideology to lower the top rate of tax. Indeed, many countries have it lower than 45%. This is merely something you disagree with, but it does not make it outdated.

I do not cling to polls. I merely use them as informative signposts.

Your last sentence is quite unnecessary. As is being shown, the harm from the lockdown we engaged in is greater than the value of lives saved. You thought only for the short and medium term and, whilst I disagree with you, I respect this stance and do not see a need to abuse you for it. I have a high regard for human life, save that of murderers/rapists/terrorists who should be dispensed with.

We're not talking about may countries, we're talking about the UK here and in this country it's outdated ideology hence the fairly swift u-turn. The thing is Duty, I actually have gone to a few Tory conferences and spoken to many fellow members and a fair few of the politicians, your view that the party as a whole should be right wing is outdated. Tugendhat and Wallace represent the majority of Conservative voters not Mark Francois or Jacob Rees-Mogg. You may well read a few articles online and somehow think you're an expert but this was a large part of my life for over 30 years.

My last sentence is completely necessary, you've shown a blatant disregard for human life with your anti lockdown rhetoric. It may not matter to you but I for one am glad no one in my family got seriously ill let alone died, I will happily suffer the consequences for that.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

What if the centre is what's best for everyone overall? Why diverge away from that just for the sake of presenting alternatives?

That's fine, but there should only be one party in the centre, ideally. This race for the centre means many, such as myself, feel disenfranchised by the mainstream offering, while knowing that FPTP suffocates any realistic chance of an insurgent party breaking through on either the left or right.

It's almost as if, despite the vast intelligence of humankind, we still haven't figured out something as basic as the best political and economic policies.

Because such a thing isn't basic due to the huge complexity of factors feeding into such a decision.

Samo wrote:While everyone is distracted by the U-turn on the 45p tax rate cut, Kwarteng quietly announced that local councils face £11bn of real term spending cuts as he isnt increasing their budgets to match inflation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kwarteng-public-spending-cuts-ifs-b2191759.html

£45bn worth of tax cuts to help the rich, but Frak the local councils who keep this country running. Shameful. The Tory way. Run everything into the ground so they can asset strip them and sell them to their donor pals in a fire sale.

It's not £45bn worth of tax cuts. It's about £10bn, although maybe a bit below that now.

mountain man wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Have to disagree here on a few points. Abolishing the 45p tax rate WAS political suicide hence the abrupt U-Turn. In the grand scheme of things compared to the rest of the economy it's a tiny amount BUT the perception by the majority of people certainly those not higher earners is it's a tax cut for the rich. This has gone down extremely badly, it was all over the media and the only thing any reporter wanted to talk about to Tory MPs. Hence an immediate turn around 24hrs after Truss said she was sticking by it. This has a two fold effect, it appears Truss really only wants to help her rich Tory mates in business but then the U-Turn makes it seem she is swayed by the negative impact of it and so abolished it. Basically the optics look terrible.
As for who elected the Tories, well it wasn't just the right wing party base, remember the "red wall" votes? Lots of people voted for the Tories(in a lot of cases specifically Boris) who never did previously, this was a combination of Brexit and the utter shambles that was Corbyn led Labour.

Now of course it's all changed or will change next election. Boris gone, Truss is in and alienating her party and the general public so unless there is a massive change Labour will breeze through next GE by default.
Sunak for his faults had a much better grasp of the economy and would have been a far more credible PM than Truss.

It wasn't political suicide. She just folded in the face of pressure from the leftist blob. Ironically, the treasury will have probably taken in more money from the top rate being 40% than 45%. The optics do look terrible because she turned.

The 2019 GE was an unusual election because it was essentially the second Brexit referendum. Vote Tory to leave the EU or vote Labour to try and stay in.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. It's hilarious how a mere few months out of office that the sheer damage he inflicted on the economy has been forgotten and he's being talked up as credible again. He's a criminal who shouldn't have public office, never mind being PM.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

The conservative party needs people just like me to get elected and it's people like me that have kept them in power for 12 years. Outdated ideology doesn't make people vote for you, nor is the party base right wing, it's centre right, the membership is not representative of the electorate. Abolishing the 45p tax was political suicide as highlighted by the very polls you cling to time and time again.

Sunak did was necessary to safeguard jobs through the pandemic and to be honest I have no time for your shameful anti lockdown viewpoint. It sickens me that you have such little regard for human life.

It is not outdated ideology to lower the top rate of tax. Indeed, many countries have it lower than 45%. This is merely something you disagree with, but it does not make it outdated.

I do not cling to polls. I merely use them as informative signposts.

Your last sentence is quite unnecessary. As is being shown, the harm from the lockdown we engaged in is greater than the value of lives saved. You thought only for the short and medium term and, whilst I disagree with you, I respect this stance and do not see a need to abuse you for it. I have a high regard for human life, save that of murderers/rapists/terrorists who should be dispensed with.

We're not talking about may countries, we're talking about the UK here and in this country it's outdated ideology hence the fairly swift u-turn. The thing is Duty, I actually have gone to a few Tory conferences and spoken to many fellow members and a fair few of the politicians, your view that the party as a whole should be right wing is outdated. Tugendhat and Wallace represent the majority of Conservative voters not Mark Francois or Jacob Rees-Mogg. You may well read a few articles online and somehow think you're an expert but this was a large part of my life for over 30 years.

My last sentence is completely necessary, you've shown a blatant disregard for human life with your anti lockdown rhetoric. It may not matter to you but I for one am glad no one in my family got seriously ill let alone died, I will happily suffer the consequences for that.

It is not outdated ideology, it is just something you disagree with. I have also gone to quite a few Tory conferences, know many members and a fair few MPs. I have also previously worked in the offices of a few Tory MPs. My experiences are not based on reading a 'few articles online'.

I have not shown any blatant disregard for human life, and it is not my fault you cannot see that. The damage that lockdown has done to some people is horrific, and I could easily accuse you of disregarding human life, but I understand your motivations and don't wish to accuse you of such.

Duty281 wrote:

It is not outdated ideology, it is just something you disagree with. I have also gone to quite a few Tory conferences, know many members and a fair few MPs. I have also previously worked in the offices of a few Tory MPs.  My experiences are not based on reading a 'few articles online'.

I have not shown any blatant disregard for human life, and it is not my fault you cannot see that. The damage that lockdown has done to some people is horrific, and I could easily accuse you of disregarding human life, but I understand your motivations and don't wish to accuse you of such.

It's strange how you've never mentioned any of this before, it's as if you've made it all up on the fly. For someone so young you really have crammed a lot into your short life, it's almost beyond belief.

It's a blatant disregard for human life and I stand by that comment.

Great to see the bootlicking brigade eating each other alive

So what's an elf then?

Galted wrote:So what's an elf then?

An Elf is a supernatural being, sometimes they're invisible like fairies.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:So what's an elf then?

An Elf is a supernatural being, sometimes they're invisible like fairies.

But they're not real, are they?

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:So what's an elf then?

An Elf is a supernatural being, sometimes they're invisible like fairies.

Ah, got you. Cheers.

Galted wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:So what's an elf then?

An Elf is a supernatural being, sometimes they're invisible like fairies.

Ah, got you.  Cheers.

What type of alien is Mr. Spock?

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

It is not outdated ideology, it is just something you disagree with. I have also gone to quite a few Tory conferences, know many members and a fair few MPs. I have also previously worked in the offices of a few Tory MPs.  My experiences are not based on reading a 'few articles online'.

I have not shown any blatant disregard for human life, and it is not my fault you cannot see that. The damage that lockdown has done to some people is horrific, and I could easily accuse you of disregarding human life, but I understand your motivations and don't wish to accuse you of such.

It's strange how you've never mentioned any of this before, it's as if you've made it all up on the fly. For someone so young you really have crammed a lot into your short life, it's almost beyond belief.

It's a blatant disregard for human life and I stand by that comment.

I'm sorry for not mentioning my experiences earlier. I also don't think it equates to cramming a lot in.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

What if the centre is what's best for everyone overall? Why diverge away from that just for the sake of presenting alternatives?

That's fine, but there should only be one party in the centre, ideally. This race for the centre means many, such as myself, feel disenfranchised by the mainstream offering, while knowing that FPTP suffocates any realistic chance of an insurgent party breaking through on either the left or right.

It's almost as if, despite the vast intelligence of humankind, we still haven't figured out something as basic as the best political and economic policies.

Because such a thing isn't basic due to the huge complexity of factors feeding into such a decision.

It would be basic for a race with superior intelligence.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You talk such utter nonsense sometimes. The current iteration of the Conservative party hasn't advocated high tax or high regulation, these are just throwaway comments with no substance. You talk about Thatcher being the last true conservative leader as if the world has stood still for 30 years, tax revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't risen sharply in that time period. The lower threshold for income tax has lowered in that time combined with the living allowance increasing, doesn't strike me as governments advocating high tax policies.

Yes I will be voting Lib Dem at the next general election if Truss is still leader at the time. My reasoning is simple, it's not the 1980's any more, abolishing the 45p tax rate was political suicide. Yes Sunak did have a better grasp of the economy, he did was needed to safeguard as many jobs as possible, far from perfect but at least gave the impression of giving a toss on occasion. I had been a member of the party for 17 years, the right did not get them elected, the moderates did.

Sunak did not have a better grasp of the economy. He borrowed enormous amounts, caused a spike in inflation and the national debt, and threw away billions upon billions in loss and fraud, while also breaking the law. Of course the Tories have advocated high tax - by the time of Sunak's last budget, the OBR said the tax burden was the highest since the 1940s. Abolishing the 45p tax rate isn't political suicide. It's a very sensible measure opposed by non-conservatives.

Actually the right did get the Tories elected, because the Tory party base is right-wing, and they have loyally voted in the candidate with the blue rosette time after time.

Please do vote for the Lib Dems. And please join them. The Conservative Party doesn't need or want people who think that abolishing the 45% top rate is political suicide.

Think it though Duty. If you got rid of all the Conservative MPs and members that are against abolishing the 45p tax rate, you'd be left with a much smaller party appealing to a much small number of people. A 'true' right-wing party, as you call it, has no more chance of getting elected than a 'true' left wing party - because we actually have evolved beyond that way of thinking. The sad thing is that anyone still thinks that way.

This isn't quite true, because this country leans more to the right than the left. We also haven't 'evolved' beyond any particular way of thinking, and it isn't sad to see diversity of political opinion.

Obviously I meant 'evolved' in a socio-political context, not a Darwinian one.
As for the goodness of diversity of political opinion - yay, three cheers for white supremacy!

Yes, I also thought you meant evolved in that sense. And we have not evolved beyond any ways of thinking, old ideas stay alive and can be brought back.

I like diversity of political opinion which is essential for a democracy to flourish. Cheap mockery doesn't stain it.

Parties should present strong, contrasting visions, rather than a race for the centre as we've seen over the past thirty years.

What if the centre is what's best for everyone overall? Why diverge away from that just for the sake of presenting alternatives?

That's fine, but there should only be one party in the centre, ideally. This race for the centre means many, such as myself, feel disenfranchised by the mainstream offering, while knowing that FPTP suffocates any realistic chance of an insurgent party breaking through on either the left or right.

It's almost as if, despite the vast intelligence of humankind, we still haven't figured out something as basic as the best political and economic policies.

Because such a thing isn't basic due to the huge complexity of factors feeding into such a decision.

It would be basic for a race with superior intelligence.

If by race you mean human then, yes, we do have superior intelligence to other beings - that still doesn't make it basic though.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:So what's an elf then?

An Elf is a supernatural being, sometimes they're invisible like fairies.

Ah, got you.  Cheers.

What type of alien is Mr. Spock?

Fray Bentos.

Galted wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Galted wrote:So what's an elf then?

An Elf is a supernatural being, sometimes they're invisible like fairies.

Ah, got you.  Cheers.

What type of alien is Mr. Spock?

Fray Bentos.

Can he swim faster than a shark?

BamBam wrote:Great to see the bootlicking brigade eating each other alive

Not so great, though, to see you still trotting out the deliberately insulting terminology. Do you think you'll get over it at some point? Give it a rest.

Transport Secretary Anne-Marie Trevelyan has told members she plans to fix "10 million potholes a year".

I'm told there are 10,000 in Blackburn, Lancashire alone.

Duty281 wrote:I've never supported the Tory Party in my life.

Duty281 wrote:I have also gone to quite a few Tory conferences, know many members and a fair few MPs. I have also previously worked in the offices of a few Tory MPs.

I wish I'd been there to see you arguing with them all.

Maybe he was serving the drinks at the conferences, not being a supporter and all.

navyblueshorts wrote:

BamBam wrote:Great to see the bootlicking brigade eating each other alive

Not so great, though, to see you still trotting out the deliberately insulting terminology. Do you think you'll get over it at some point? Give it a rest.

A agree. Please stop with this, BamBam. It's boring.

The point is, The Conservative Party are not sensible middle class professionals, as the majority of low- information voters who aren't particularly up on political things,but think they look like they know about sums and stuff.

That's received opinion that's been passed down for many generations. The truth is , they are just a front for big business lobbying and corporate power.
There was a recession which was exploited so as to give the public the message that there needs to be belt-tightening, and so sadly we must make tough decisions to claw some money back from the scroungers and foreigners.
The Brexit vote stoked this after a completely dishonest Tory campaign in 2015.But blow me down with a feather, nothings been done on immigration and they are trying to shrink the state until the pips squeak-destroying this country for the purpose of lining their ,and their mates', pockets.
I don't think the British public is going to get fooled again.

navyblueshorts wrote:

BamBam wrote:Great to see the bootlicking brigade eating each other alive

Not so great, though, to see you still trotting out the deliberately insulting terminology. Do you think you'll get over it at some point? Give it a rest.

No, but surely it’s about time for you to flounce off again princess

BamBam wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

BamBam wrote:Great to see the bootlicking brigade eating each other alive

Not so great, though, to see you still trotting out the deliberately insulting terminology. Do you think you'll get over it at some point? Give it a rest.

No, but surely it’s about time for you to flounce off again princess

Think this says more about you, than me, really .

Still trying to process LTs speech from the conference. Dont think alienating around 75% of the population is the vote winner she thinks it is.

Samo wrote:Still trying to process LTs speech from the conference.  Dont think alienating around 75% of the population is the vote winner she thinks it is.

Agreed.

A funny thing occurs when I see her, Kwarteng etc now - in the background, all I can hear is the theme tune from Laurel & Hardy or Benny Hill. No idea why...

Her policies alienated more so it's only upwards from here

https://www.barrheadnews.com/news/national/23038000.bank-england-boosts-gilt-buying-programme-market-turmoil-returns/

The Bank of England has said it will further bolster its emergency bond-buying plan as it warned the ongoing rout in the gilts market poses a “material risk to UK financial stability”.

The central bank said it will now widen the scope of its UK government bond-buying programme, which was launched in the wake of the mini-budget market turmoil, to include purchases of index-linked UK government bonds amid concerns over another “fire sale” of gilts.

Bloody Anti-Growth coalition. Its somehow all their fault.

The Health Secretary is about to drop plans to tackle smoking in yet another U-turn for this quite ridiculous government. I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Therese Coffey has previously accepted hospitality from the tobacco industry.