Welsh Rugby Vote

This is the only thread left that hasn't been locked, so I guess this is the only appropriate place to discuss the big vote that is going ahead next weekend and the need to change.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-clubs-vote-significant-25325497

What do we all think ?

It would've been better to have created a new thread, rather than necro post.

This seems a lot of waffle by Butcher, although it is nice to see him actually say something for once.

"One fear clubs may have is that an independent chair may focus too heavily on the professional end of the game at the expense of community rugby. "

That's it. That's all you need to know. The clubs despise the 4 pro teams and hate it when a penny goes to them, even if it's owed to them.

RugbyFan100 wrote:"One fear clubs may have is that an independent chair may focus too heavily on the professional end of the game at the expense of community rugby. "

That's it. That's all you need to know. The clubs despise the 4 pro teams and hate it when a penny goes to them, even if it's owed to them.

Do you have any evidence of this ?

I've seen the vitriol between the fanbase, like what you have shown in your post, but nothing from the clubs. The problem we have is from the bitter fanbase, and it comes from both sides.

For the good of Welsh rugby it needs to stop.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:"One fear clubs may have is that an independent chair may focus too heavily on the professional end of the game at the expense of community rugby. "

That's it. That's all you need to know. The clubs despise the 4 pro teams and hate it when a penny goes to them, even if it's owed to them.

Do you have any evidence of this ?

I've seen the vitriol between the fanbase, like what you have shown in your post, but nothing from the clubs. The problem we have is from the bitter fanbase, and it comes from both sides.

For the good of Welsh rugby it needs to stop.

The minutes from the meetings should be available soemwhere I'd have thought. Some of the clubs think all money belomgs to them.

The evidence that the clubs are holding back rugby in Wales, is that the pro and the amateur game are still not split in 2022. The clubs have always voted against it. So technically Abersh1th0le RFC have a say in how the WRU is run and how our 4 pro clubs are run. And they do not want to give up that power.

You see, this is where we have a difference of opinion.

I think it's self entitled fans like you who are the problem.

LordDowlais wrote:You see, this is where we have a difference of opinion.

I think it's self entitled fans like you who are the problem.

What have I claimed I should be entitled to?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You see, this is where we have a difference of opinion.

I think it's self entitled fans like you who are the problem.

What have I claimed I should be entitled to?

That only the 4 pro clubs should have the biggest say in how rugby is run in Wales.

Without the community game, there would be no pro rugby teams.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You see, this is where we have a difference of opinion.

I think it's self entitled fans like you who are the problem.

What have I claimed I should be entitled to?

That only the 4 pro clubs should have the biggest say in how rugby is run in Wales.

Without the community game, there would be no pro rugby teams.

That doesn’t seem to be what has been said.

There should be separate governance. If the community game didn’t hold so much sway, there wouldn’t be half the gravy train involved in Welsh rugby. Look at who are responsible for running the WRU and there isn’t a lot of real qualification there. There’s only one reason why this has happened.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You see, this is where we have a difference of opinion.

I think it's self entitled fans like you who are the problem.

What have I claimed I should be entitled to?

That only the 4 pro clubs should have the biggest say in how rugby is run in Wales.

Without the community game, there would be no pro rugby teams.

Yeah I can't see where I've said that.

At the moment, nearly 300 clubs have a say in how 4 private, indepdent businesses are run (turnover approx £25m - £30m). That's not right. The 300 clubs should have a say in how they themselves are run. The 4 professional clubs should be in control of how pro domestic rugby is run.

I wouldn't expect 300 people who's hobby is carpets, to have a say in how companies like CarpetRight are run.

If that makes me entitled, then we're in far worse trouble than I thought we were.

I wouldnt expect the fans of the 4 biggest underachieving clubs in Wales to see things any differently.

Good, it's what needs to happen.

The clubs won't vote for it though as they're reluctant to move into the 21st century.

The community game does not get enough funding as it is. The regional fanbase is so blinkered to how rugby should be automated in Wales you cannot see the woods for the trees.

You see, chairmen of clubs like Abersh1th0le RFC have a duty of concern for the community in which their club is pivotal. What they get from the WRU is a pittance compared to the millions handed over to the regions, from where I am standing it is akin to throwing good money after bad money, it will never be enough for most of you.

Then to rub salt in the wounds, you have regional fans pining to be part of something that will never happen, being part of the English league, when they are already a part of something that the community clubs will never get access to. Us lot in the community see the regions getting it all, and doing bugger all with it, then coming out with the excuses that it's still not fair because you need more money. The truth is, you all need to look at each other, as all regions get funded exactly the same, no matter how they conduct themselves, or what they achieve.

Here is a novel idea, why don't the regions try making more money for themselves ? I know it's nothing compared to what the mighty regions need, but during the off season, clubs in Merthyr run events, and try and make money for the upcoming season. Families put their own money in, they give up their spare time, they do jobs for free, they do not expect everything top be handed to them by the big bad WRU. Yes that is the gravy train we are all on.

Why should the 4 pro clubs control how domestic rugby is run ? If it was run anything likes the regions are being run then god help us.

So excuse people who are in charge of clubs like Abersh1th0le RFC for looking after their own, and the communities they support, how dare they try and hold onto the last scrap from the table that gets thrown their way after the regions have been handed millions.

I agree, there could be two different entities, the Pro game, and the community game, but that does not mean the Pro game should be better funded, or they have control over domestic rugby. Anyway, that's my rant over, I could go on for day about this.

Lets just wait and see what the outcome of the vote is.

LordDowlais wrote:
I agree, there could be two different entities, the Pro game, and the community game,

Good.

Everything else you wrote is meaningless drivel.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I agree, there could be two different entities, the Pro game, and the community game,

Good.  

Everything else you wrote is meaningless drivel.

Only in your blinkered point of view.

The pro and the community game should be split. The clubs are unlikely to vote for it.

That's literally all the ponts I've posted in this thread. Yet I'm blinkered? mmmkay

On this thread, yes.

But you have always made it quite clear on here what your intentions are. Which is fine, I have no problem with it, or your point of view, I have even defended your sometimes irrational views on here, but what you want, is nowhere near good for the whole, and the future of Welsh ruby.

LordDowlais wrote:On this thread, yes.

But you have always made it quite clear on here what your intentions are. Which is fine, I have no problem with it, or your point of view, I have even defended your sometimes irrational views on here, but what you want, is nowhere near good for the whole, and the future of Welsh ruby.

What's that?

For the community game/Grass roots to have less funding and the regions to have more.

LordDowlais wrote:For the community game/Grass roots to have less funding and the regions to have more.

Not true. I'd like everyone to have more money.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:"One fear clubs may have is that an independent chair may focus too heavily on the professional end of the game at the expense of community rugby. "

That's it. That's all you need to know. The clubs despise the 4 pro teams and hate it when a penny goes to them, even if it's owed to them.

Do you have any evidence of this ?

I've seen the vitriol between the fanbase, like what you have shown in your post, but nothing from the clubs. The problem we have is from the bitter fanbase, and it comes from both sides.

For the good of Welsh rugby it needs to stop.

The evidence exists in Narberth's representative actually stating that word-for-word at an AGM.

I'll remind you, there are more paying supporters for pro rugby in Wales than there are adult male registered players. It's time for the tail to stop wagging the dog.

LordDowlais wrote:I wouldnt expect the fans of the 4 biggest underachieving clubs in Wales to see things any differently.

The biggest underachieving club in Wales is Merthyr. All that money spent for so little reward and even less point.

The pro clubs cannot be seen as underachieving by anybody sane who understands how professional rugby is funded.

LordDowlais wrote:The community game does not get enough funding as it is.

Sorry, but why should so few adult males get their hobby even further subsidised?

LordDowlais wrote:
You see, chairmen of clubs like Abersh1th0le RFC have a duty of concern for the community in which their club is pivotal.

The number of adult registered males shows this is complete horse manure.

LordDowlais wrote: when they are already a part of something that the community clubs will never get access to.

Erm, the community clubs voted to ensure that was the case.

You do realise this, yes?

LordDowlais wrote: Us lot in the community see the regions getting it all, and doing bugger all with it

The problem with this claim is that only a monumental idiot would think this way as said momental idiot would have to be completely ignorant of what's happened with the Welsh national team in the last 19 years.

They'd also have to be completely ignorant of what changed at the WRU in the early 2010s with the resulting change in the trophies won by the national team's immediate supply chain.

LordDowlais wrote:The truth is, you all need to look at each other, as all regions get funded exactly the same, no matter how they conduct themselves, or what they achieve.  

This is not even remotely true. The four don't get equal payments.

So this would underline that, whoever in the community game thinks that all four get equal payments, the fact that those monumental idiots exist.

LordDowlais wrote:
Here is a novel idea, why don't the regions try making more money for themselves ?

Now, these monumental idiots would ask such a question as they'd all be too stupid to read company accounts.

Because, you see, those company accounts show how much money the pro clubs make for themselves.

LordDowlais wrote:
Why should the 4 pro clubs control how domestic rugby is run ? If it was run anything likes the regions are being run then god help us.

Now, this argument falls on two fronts:

1. The 4 pro clubs should only control domestic pro rugby, not the shrinking hobby game
2. The pro game is presently being run by the hobby game, which is shrinking and killing itself by hobby clubs outbidding each other with boot money.

LordDowlais wrote:
So excuse people who are in charge of clubs like Abersh1th0le RFC for looking after their own, and the communities they support, how dare they try and hold onto the last scrap from the table that gets thrown their way after the regions have been handed millions.

1) they don't support their communities
2) nobody is handed anything in the professional game
3) the only money given by the WRU without strings attached is, ironically, the core grant given to the hobby clubs. Again, if you're not a monumental idiot then you'd know this.

LordDowlais wrote:For the community game/Grass roots to have less funding and the regions to have more.

Of course, the above argument has never been put forward. It's the ultimate straw man argument. It's gaslighting.

It's a flat out lie.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
So excuse people who are in charge of clubs like Abersh1th0le RFC for looking after their own, and the communities they support, how dare they try and hold onto the last scrap from the table that gets thrown their way after the regions have been handed millions.

1) they don't support their communities
2) nobody is handed anything in the professional game
3) the only money given by the WRU without strings attached is, ironically, the core grant given to the hobby clubs. Again, if you're not a monumental idiot then you'd know this.

Apologies. I made a mistake with 3). There is a string attached - that string is that the club doesn't pay players.

So, of course, nigh on all clubs ignore that, lie about it and ensure their players are paid anyway.

All, of course, for the good of the community *they represent* (which, of course, they don't)

In this article the proposal being discussed is that the WRU board could appoint an independent chair. I’d like to hear what fans here think of this proposal.

Intotouch wrote:In this article the proposal being discussed is that the WRU board could appoint an independent chair. I’d like to hear what fans here think of this proposal.

It's lipstick on a pig.

Ah well, this could have been a decent debate until a certain member turned up.

No point discussing anymore.

LordDowlais wrote:Ah well, this could have been a decent debate until a certain member turned up.

No point discussing anymore.

Why, because said poster has torn your poorly researched ramblings a new hole?

Also, isn't it against the forum rules to openly insult people ?

Like constantly call somebody an idiot. Yet here we are.......

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ah well, this could have been a decent debate until a certain member turned up.

No point discussing anymore.

Why, because said poster has torn your poorly researched ramblings a new hole?

It's pointless because you and phil will take this down an avenue that will only get the thread locked and lots of red pen warnings.

I am the only impartial Welsh rugby supporter on here, the rest are all regional fans who only see things their way. So what is the point in debating, when all you will try and do is shout the loudest.

LordDowlais wrote:Ah well, this could have been a decent debate until a certain member turned up.

No point discussing anymore.

I've discussed each of your points in turn and presented the reality of the situation to each one.

It's an odd trait for an adult to write nonsense but then moan when called out on it.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, isn't it against the forum rules to openly insult people  ?

Like constantly call somebody an idiot. Yet here we are.......

I didn't call you an idiot. I called anybody who held the views of Abersh1th0le RFC, that you promoted, an idiot.

LordDowlais wrote:

I am the only impartial Welsh rugby supporter on here

You just labelled the 4 pro teams 'the biggest underachieveing rugby teams in Wales.'

LordDowlais wrote:
I am the only impartial Welsh rugby supporter on here, the rest are all regional fans who only see things their way. So what is the point in debating, when all you will try and do is shout the loudest.

Erm, since when did being an alleged Merthyr RFC supporter allow you to be impartial?

I've addressed each point you made from Aberwhatever, each point individually. I put the reality of the situation to each point that third person from Aberwherever made.

Why don't you go back to them now the actual reality of the situation has been addressed?

We can start with "the club represents the community" when the reality is many teams are struggling to get even 15 players and many of those are travelling in, for cash, from well outside of that community. Shall we start there?

Or shall we start with the fib about wanting less money to be spent on the community game?

Or shall we just moan "oh no, somebody has taken that ramble, utterly destroyed it, so now I'm going to claim everything is SO unfair"?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I am the only impartial Welsh rugby supporter on here

You just labelled the 4 pro teams 'the biggest underachieveing rugby teams in Wales.'

Merthyr fan Lord Dowlais is 'impartial'.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, isn't it against the forum rules to openly insult people  ?

Like constantly call somebody an idiot. Yet here we are.......

I didn't call you an idiot. I called anybody who held the views of Abersh1th0le RFC, that you promoted, an idiot.

Your such a parody.

All you do is come on here, and other platforms and just stink up the place. Everyone else are always wrong, and of course you are always right.

Find a new subject.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Here is a novel idea, why don't the regions try making more money for themselves ?

Now, these monumental idiots would ask such a question as they'd all be too stupid to read company accounts.

Because, you see, those company accounts show how much money the pro clubs make for themselves.

Take this one back to Aberwherever, Dowlais.

I'll help you out:

Cardiff Blues Ltd, Year End 30 June 2020

WRU Income = £5,017.000
Competition Income (money they earn for themselves) = £2,977,000
Commercial Income (monty they earn for themselves) = £3,575,000

Now, maybe somebody at Aberflywherewhat RFC can produce a business plan to increase that £6.4m to closer to £9m. I'm sure the pro clubs would love to read such a business plan.

But summer fetes ain't gonna generate that kind of cash.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, isn't it against the forum rules to openly insult people  ?

Like constantly call somebody an idiot. Yet here we are.......

I didn't call you an idiot. I called anybody who held the views of Abersh1th0le RFC, that you promoted, an idiot.

Your such a parody.

All you do is come on here, and other platforms and just stink up the place. Everyone else are always wrong, and of course you are always right.

Find a new subject.

Ok, I hope you feel better now for writing that.

Please point me to where I've written anything "wrong" whilst dissecting your third party views of Aberwherever RFC. If I'm wrong, I'll happily learn from that. I won't moan and cry it's so unfair that I can't write nonsense without challenge, so that's a point of difference between us.

So, please, highlight my errors in the posts where I ripped apart the views of the "Man from AberwWWw".

You can write whatever you like Phil. It would also seem that you can insult at will on here, or is it just allowed because it is me who you are insulting.

Anyway, enjoy being the internet champion.

I have too much going on in my life to be on here arguing the toss with you.

LordDowlais wrote:You can write whatever you like Phil. It would also seem that you can insult at will on here, or is it just allowed because it is me who you are insulting.

Anyway, enjoy being the internet champion.

I have too much going on in my life to be on here arguing the toss with you.

So you wanted a debate, as you wrote previously, but now you don't as you've got too much going on.

Which is it?

Let's review this: you wrote some third party views, or at least that is how you presented them. I showed how each view was wrong.

Since then, you have moaned about me, called me a parody, called me an internet champion, sandwiched on either side by wanting a debate and then not wanting one because you're too busy.

From all of that, it's rather easy to come to the conclusion that you wrote some trash, have been called out on it and have no comeback as you know that what you wrote was trash. If not, you've wasted three or so posts, in your busy life, to write absolutely nothing close to the points I made when you could have proven me wrong instead.

Oh well.

LordDowlais wrote:You can write whatever you like Phil. It would also seem that you can insult at will on here, or is it just allowed because it is me who you are insulting.

Anyway, enjoy being the internet champion.

I have too much going on in my life to be on here arguing the toss with you.

You brought this subject to the table. And asked "what do we all think"?

Then a poster gave some opinions. You bizarrely labelled them "entitled" and the pro teams "underachieving" (which to my mind smacks of a pre conceived desire to cause an argument when there was none). Then people pick up on your assessment of the situation, and now you appear to want to cry off when someone's responded pretty resasonablly to each point made.

I think you need to man uip a little and respond rather than just throw the unfair tag around.

OK Phil, lets debate.

Do you have an interest in rugby below the regions ?

Just for you to know, it's on it's knees. Only recently we have just seen a club fold because of lack of players and finances, you might have heard about it, Tredegar RFC, over 100 years of history gone, and a whole town without a rugby team.

So here we are, do we allow this trend to continue ? Or do we do something about it ?

Without these community and grass root clubs, there is no rugby for anyone, so why shouldn't these clubs have a say in how rugby in Wales should or shouldn't be run ?