Rassie and the referee police.

I am very interested in other peoples' opinion on rassie's continued Twitter war on officials. I personally think he's gone way over the top and and has sensationalised spurious claims of bias against SA. Perhaps someone should make videos to highlight when SA get the rub of green to counteract his myopic victim signalling. I used to respect rassie but alas no more.

What is scary is that many 'fans' are buying into this and are regularly spouting all sorts of nonsense. The rot has set in and we are no better than soccer if we don't nip it in the bud. Thankfully it does seem to have galvanized a resistance movement where one keen eye observer named rassie the 'trump' of rugby. Can't think of a better rebuttal than than that.

It's just quite childish. I really don't know what outcome he's trying to get either.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's just quite childish. I really don't know what outcome he's trying to get either.

I would imagine that at least part of what he is trying to get at is to keep media focus off the players...and he's being quite successful at that...

All the coaches do it to some extent. Remember Jones called TMOs "failed referees" and said that referees 'tried to equalise the game for the other side'....Dave Rennie called the referee 'Horrendus'....now why WR didn't ban Jones and Rennie for a year for those comments might be the subject of another TAS analytics video...

Better and easier ways to go about keeping the media talking than having a hissy fit on twitter though surely!?

Yoda wrote:I am very interested in other peoples' opinion on rassie's continued Twitter war on officials. I personally think he's gone way over the top and and has sensationalised spurious claims of bias against SA. Perhaps someone should make videos to highlight when SA get the rub of green to counteract his myopic victim signalling. I used to respect rassie but alas no more.

What is scary is that many 'fans' are buying into this and are regularly spouting all sorts of nonsense. The rot has set in and we are no better than soccer if we don't nip it in the bud. Thankfully it does seem to have galvanized a resistance movement where one keen eye observer named rassie the 'trump' of rugby. Can't think of a better rebuttal than than that.

It's a time honoured tactic, everyone in SA is talking about the refereeing and not about SA losing, and of course you never have to look far to find a Saffer with a grievance about how the world hates them   . It's probably playing well with his audience there.

It's the time honoured tradition of if you lose blame everyone else and spout unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

A certain D Trump a splendid example.

Rassie is an embarrassment, not much else to say really. His following on social media aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the box either......they make a good team.

I've always been a big fan of SA rugby but he's turned me and I now quite enjoy it when they get beat.

Yoda wrote:I am very interested in other peoples' opinion on rassie's continued Twitter war on officials. I personally think he's gone way over the top and and has sensationalised spurious claims of bias against SA. Perhaps someone should make videos to highlight when SA get the rub of green to counteract his myopic victim signalling. I used to respect rassie but alas no more.

What is scary is that many 'fans' are buying into this and are regularly spouting all sorts of nonsense. The rot has set in and we are no better than soccer if we don't nip it in the bud. Thankfully it does seem to have galvanized a resistance movement where one keen eye observer named rassie the 'trump' of rugby. Can't think of a better rebuttal than than that.

The outspoken ones buy this narrative.

Consider the fact that on any given day you might find a couple of thousand South Africans on social media platforms complaining about this.

For every 1 complainer that buys into this narrative there are 100 sitting at home or work not complaining about referees etc.

The same thing with social justice warriors, for every 1 that spouts vitriol and ideologies on social media there are 100 sitting at home not even paying attention.

The issue I have with what Rassie is doing is that it takes away from legitimate gripes around real referee issues.

If a South African actually now comments on a legitimate incident he is tarred and feathered with the rest of them.

Hence not even worth discussing anymore. Plus the negative perception that is now created and potential negative attitude from referees towards SA rugby is not good for us.

Glad there is consensus. Gone are the days of planting the seed in the head of the ref by subtle means. The game is a pig to referee successfully at the best of times especially when both teams are cheating. World rugby need to get to grips with this asap.

Old Man wrote:
The issue I have with what Rassie is doing is that it takes away from legitimate gripes around real referee issues.

For me this is the key.  Do referees get everything right - probably not.  But it is a complex and fast moving game to control so there has to be some leeway, and also some learning afterwards.

We will all have times we can point to when our team "was hard done by" after a particular decision, but in the end things will even themselves up, if we have good referees.  Why would anyone become a referee when they are under continuous scrutiny and can't answer back?  There needs to be support and coaching to ensure the refs we do get are as good as possible, and action to stop coaches ref blaming.

Perhaps we could see Rassie ref'ing to see how he gets on.  And perhaps Wayne Barnes could select a better balanced Springbok team as well

Rassie ruined the Lions tour with his criticising of the referee team. How could the Lions tire out and create space late in a game against the big SA players when an 80 min game takes 126 minutes?

Now what Rassie is doing is trying to influence Referees to not give 50/50 calls against SA, and to award more 50/50 calls to SA, for fear of being called out publicly to World Rugby.

If Rassie can scare the refs, so that SA get 60% of any 50/50 calls, thats a massive advantage.

WR should see it as trying to influence refs and ban him accordingly.

Kingshu wrote:Rassie ruined the Lions tour with his criticising of the referee team. How could the Lions tire out and create space late in a game against the big SA players when an 80 min game takes 126 minutes?

Now what Rassie is doing is trying to influence Referees to not give 50/50 calls against SA, and to award more 50/50 calls to SA, for fear of being called out publicly to World Rugby.

If Rassie can scare the refs, so that SA get 60% of any 50/50 calls, thats a massive advantage.

WR should see it as trying to influence refs and ban him accordingly.

If we're going to be fair, we should recall that Gatland called out the refs and TMOs in the Lions tour, and that ended up having a direct impact on the game. If we want Rassie banned for this, then Jones, Gatland, Foster and Rennie must also all be banned

Lets start with Erasmus then and see if it works. Say a 5 year ban from rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lets start with Erasmus then and see if it works. Say a 5 year ban from rugby.

Which would make Rassie's point perfectly...that there are different standards for different countries... Dave Rennie calls a ref's performance horrendus, and then openly questions another ref's performance: how is that any better than Rassie?....so he should probably be banned for 5 years too (to be fair, I'm sure Aussie fans will support a move to ban Rennie form coaching them...)

No head coach has got anywhere near the levels of Erasmus....he should be reprimanded and given a final warning, as the previous ban seems to have had no effect.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No head coach has got anywhere near the levels of Erasmus....he should be reprimanded and given a final warning, as the previous ban seems to have had no effect.

Oh come on. After every England loss Jones has a go at the ref, one way or another. He openly (ie at a press conference) called TMOs failed refs, said referees give cards to 'even the teams out', called a ref the 16th man for Wales, he claimed that the yellow cards given for intentional knock downs against AUS were errors, he said the TMO in a match was 'out of control', he claimed that the ref was wrong to not card the Irish scrum...and on and on and on...Rassie claims (indirectly, through innuendo) that refs have made errors; whereas Jones directly accuses refs of being biassed and incompetent, and he has been doing this for years.....

Nobody has reached the levels of Erasmus...not even close.

The whole racism incident with Berry and the hour long video rants.....now these videos going through every little decision that goes against him, he's a disgrace.

You can somewhat understand a passionate rant in the heat of the moment, he doesn't do this.

Erasmus is just a one eyed chopper with little regard for the sport, I find him utterly embarrassing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nobody has reached the levels of Erasmus...not even close.

The whole racism incident with Berry and the hour long video rants.....now these videos going through every little decision that goes against him, he's a disgrace.

You can somewhat understand a passionate rant in the heat of the moment, he doesn't do this.

Erasmus is just a one eyed chopper with little regard for the sport, I find him utterly embarrassing.

but some context...Gatland had had a go at the ref over decisions in the SA 'A' match against the Lions, and then stated that he couldn't trust that the TMO in the upcoming first test would be impartial. The TMO in that test then made some rather odd calls in favour of the Lions....Gatland's comments were not 'heat of the moment' they were calculated...so are Jones' comments. In fact Jones' comments about O'Keefe were such that WR offered O'Keefe a formal apology (and yet nothing happened to Jones)

For the record, I should say that I don't approve of any coach publically questioning the refs....it has dire consequences down at amateur and school-boy level. But I am somewhat alarmed by the fact that no one seems to mind when other coaches do it, only when Rassie does it.

After any loss Jones blames himself rather than officials anyway.

If a coach should criticise any ref, TMO etc it is nowhere near level that Erasmus does and after his sanction for that ridiculous hour long attack on Berry you'd think he'd have learnt a lesson but apparently not.

It was the RFU who apologised for Jones to O'Keefe, and then they reprimanded Jones. They are his employers. In the same game though Parkes hit Tuilagi direct to the head in a tackle, and I think Liam Williams did something to Tom Curry - possible head contact in a clear out if my memory serves me correctly. They both should have been punished for their recklessness. That they werent is the inconsistency that frustrates most people in rugby - coaches, players, fans.

mountain man wrote:After any loss Jones blames himself rather than officials anyway.

If a coach should criticise any ref, TMO etc it is nowhere near level that Erasmus does and after his sanction for that ridiculous hour long attack on Berry you'd think he'd have learnt a lesson but apparently not.

I get Rassie is everone'sleast favourite coach, and he probably still deserve what is coming to him (continuous criticism) however it must also be considered he is very subtle these days.

Subtle? Hmmm not a word I'd associate with him but anyway.

Ranting and raving may fire up a team and supporters but after a while it becomes detrimental.
Eddie Jones notorious for saying daft and ill advised stuff usually pre-match, eg saying NZ "are there for the taking" amongst many others in past. Coaches should let their teams do the talking on the pitch. In my opinion Jones puts more pressure on team by saying dull things than it helps them.

mountain man wrote:Subtle? Hmmm not a word I'd associate with him but anyway.

Ranting and raving may fire up a team and supporters but after a while it becomes detrimental.
Eddie Jones notorious for saying daft and ill advised stuff usually pre-match, eg saying NZ "are there for the taking" amongst many others in past. Coaches should let their teams do the talking on the pitch. In my opinion Jones puts more pressure on team by saying dull things than it helps them.

I don't disagree that it is detrimental, I actually commented on the fact that I think it has a negative effect on SA rugby, firstly because referees are only human and as proffessional as they are, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouths and subconsiously it must affect their decisions in a negative way.

Secondly, due to Rassie and his followers consistently playing the victom card, when some of us feel we have a legitimate gripe over a decision, it is just swept under the same banner of whining.

Even if his Tweets are now subtle in comparison to last year

As pointed out above, rugby at the moment (at professional and especially international level) is pretty much impossible to referee to the Laws of the game and their current interpretation - pretty much every scrum and breakdown you could legitimately award a penalty to either team, but the refs know that they have to let the game flow, so will only give the penalty where the offence has a significant effect on how the play progresses.

I actually think most refs are now pretty consistent in their decision making within an individual game, although obviously can miss things given the speed of the game. The bigger issue is the difference in interpretation of the Laws between refs, and how that absolutely effects the results of games - as an England fan, I hate having Jaco Peiper reffing us, not because he's a bad ref, but because his interpretation seems to pick up certain features of England's play that other refs allow to go unpunished i.e. he's a bad ref FOR US. Alain Rolland was another, while I'd happily have Nigel Owens ref all England games, including v Wales in Cardiff.

dummy_half wrote:As pointed out above, rugby at the moment (at professional and especially international level) is pretty much impossible to referee to the Laws of the game and their current interpretation - pretty much every scrum and breakdown you could legitimately award a penalty to either team, but the refs know that they have to let the game flow, so will only give the penalty where the offence has a significant effect on how the play progresses.

I actually think most refs are now pretty consistent in their decision making within an individual game, although obviously can miss things given the speed of the game. The bigger issue is the difference in interpretation of the Laws between refs, and how that absolutely effects the results of games - as an England fan, I hate having Jaco Peiper reffing us, not because he's a bad ref, but because his interpretation seems to pick up certain features of England's play that other refs allow to go unpunished i.e. he's a bad ref FOR US. Alain Rolland was another, while I'd happily have Nigel Owens ref all England games, including v Wales in Cardiff.

Yes I agree with this. Another gripe though is inconsistancy with TMO intervention. Prime example Eng v NZ RWC final last Saturday.

I myself never really care which referee is appointed for Springbok matches. It is more important for me to see the Boks assess and learn how a referee is interpreting scrums, line outs, mauls and breakdowns within the first quarter, as those are the areas very open to individual interpretation of laws.

The rest is morestraight forward, offsides, high tackles, foul play, foward passes etc.

I also understand that referees will err at those facets that are more open to interpretation, and therefor expect the Springboks to understand game management and referee management.

If for example it is a close match at the death, there are certain things you need to focus on where the referee can influence the result.

Get out of your half, don't play within striking distance of your redzone, anything can happen there.

Be aware of sealing off the ball with pick and goes inside your half, referee can easily pinge you.

One area that I believe is crucial is to get the decisions on tries correct. They have a fundamental impact on the game.

Fifty fifty forward passes happens, fifty fifty breakdown decisions happens.

But blatant offside at a ruck, or clear double movement or knock ons, or touchline when scoring a try should never be contentious.

Well in fairness when a try is scored if there is any doubt then multiple replays are checked.

It's an incident 4 moves removed which has an indirect affect is more tricky. I'd like to have 2 TMOs for each match working together to review incidents etc so ref can keep game going and only stop when alerted to by TMO rather than what often happens is ref will say "check this" and play stops. Obviously not for foul play or dangerous tackles but technical offences.

Would make for a more flowing game and hopefully get more decisions right with less intervention ideally.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No head coach has got anywhere near the levels of Erasmus....he should be reprimanded and given a final warning, as the previous ban seems to have had no effect.

Oh come on. After every England loss Jones has a go at the ref, one way or another. He openly (ie at a press conference) called TMOs failed refs, said referees give cards to 'even the teams out', called a ref the 16th man for Wales, he claimed that the yellow cards given for intentional knock downs against AUS were errors, he said the TMO in a match was 'out of control', he claimed that the ref was wrong to not card the Irish scrum...and on and on and on...Rassie claims (indirectly, through innuendo) that refs have made errors; whereas Jones directly accuses refs of being biassed and incompetent, and he has been doing this for years.....

But surely Erasmus hasn't even criticised a ref here...blah blah blah excuses excuses, Ban him for 10 years.

Unsurprisingly Rassie has just been given a two match ban for his twitter rants

Collapse2005 wrote:Unsurprisingly Rassie has just been given a two match ban for his twitter rants

Sense has prevailed somewhat.

In all seriousness, is he a bit dense? This whole "I was saying we need to be better, not criticising" angle....its like something a 14yo would come up with.

What's wrong with the guy?

Barnes etc receiving death threats from his idiot following.

I think he has clearly gotten too big a head after winning the RWC. If anything his rants will just pit refs against SA.

At least world rugby has stepped in. It would be nice if the s.a RFU also publicly reprimands him too like the RFU did with jones. Rassie should concentrate on the issues in his squad and deal with those issues he has direct control over.

I think his employer should think very carefully over the next couple of weeks before he permanently damages their reputation too. By staying quiet it is endorsing his myopic views.

SA A are getting thumped by Bristol at the moment. Could be 4 losses from 4 games for Rassie sides the November.

Full time now and Bristol get the win.

Even John Smit speaking out against Erasmus.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63705156

To me, yes, he has gone over the line.  A few times.  And when he does it, give him credit for going big.  Just don't make the game look bad in doing so.  

But I am not offended or terribly concerned, and mostly, I find him entertaining.  He is a good coach and gets results.  Just need a whack of valium and some decaf and he will be fine.

Im not offended either, let him at it. The constant victim hood is only hurting himself and his side.

BBC:
South Africa coach Jacques Nienaber has accused the rugby world of lacking respect for his team in the wake of director of rugby Rassie Erasmus' ban for social media posts about referees.

"If all the facts are out there, I think people would form a different opinion," said Nienaber of Erasmus' two-week suspension by World Rugby.

"It is quite sad if you think about it."

Erasmus' suspension includes Saturday's match against England.

Nienaber, who stepped into the head coach role in 2019, said he believed that the misconceptions around his world champion team extended to their playing style.

"We can't control the narrative that gets put out there that we are boring and we don't attack that we just kick and tackle," he said.

Erasmus behaviour 'making Boks easy to dislike' - Smit on Rugby Union Weekly
"All the energy you put in, you are not going to change that narrative, that is the narrative people want to drive.

"If we will get respect ever, I don't know, but as long as we are comfortable with what we are putting out here and are trying to achieve, and we are open and honest with each other as a group."

South Africa's director of rugby Erasmus had only been allowed to return to the Springboks matchday set-up in October after a year's ban for his criticisms of the match officials during his team's series victory over the British and Irish Lions in 2021.

World Rugby has said that his social media commentary on refereeing decisions could have a corrosive effect on the grassroots game, with the governing body's chief executive Alan Gilpin emphasising that dialogue between officials and coaches much remain private.

Nienaber said he could not reveal the information he felt was not being made public because of rules over confidentiality, but that it would "probably" emerge eventually.

"We can't discuss unfortunately, it is what it is, but we know the facts and we share with those the players and within the group," he added.

Worth listening to BBC podcast on World Players of year, John Smit interviewed on that. Basically article I linked to sums it up but he was very clear Eramus in wrong. Disappointing now Nienaber taking same line as Erasmus.

It's become some kind of badge it seems.....everybody hates us and we don't care......the refs are against us etc etc.

It's just kind of bizarre and quite pathetic tbh. SA are a great rugby nation and quite rightly won the WC, they don't need this angle.

I always liked Rassie, but he's like a cancer in rugby currently, slowly eating away at the ethos, establishment, standards, respect etc. I don't dislike SA because of what he's doing, I just dislike him, he's an idiot.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's become some kind of badge it seems.....everybody hates us and we don't care......the refs are against us etc etc.

The Neil Warnock approach.

No 7&1/2 wrote:BBC:South Africa coach Jacques Nienaber has accused the rugby world of lacking respect for his team in the wake of director of rugby Rassie Erasmus' ban for social media posts about referees.

"If all the facts are out there, I think people would form a different opinion

Aside from the unlikely possibility that Erasmus wasn't responsible for those social media contributions, it's hard to imagine what facts would change people's opinion about what he said.

Its amazing how often I see in comments sections in SH based rugby articles comments about how world rugby are biased towards NH sides and the whole system is fixed in favour of said sides. As I Irish fan from a country who has never hosted the world cup nor advanced to a RWC semi I find this view baffling especially given the three big SH sides have all won multiple world cups and each hosted the tournament some of them multiple times.

For the 2023 world cup bids for example World Rugby wholeheartedly endorsed South Africa over France and Ireland's bids even citing SA as a lower security risk as Ireland in their assessment.

A few losses and the crazies really come out. However to be fair to Rassie and co. I think we probably have to accept that most one score games could probably have gone either way depending on ref interpretations such are the laws involved. If you want to win you have to make sure you put teams away.

Conversation here featuring Kevin Ferguson, who runs the media group which owns SA Rugby Mag. He's with the editor, Zelin Nek, and Mark Keohane, who can be an incendiary commentator himself. Keohane supported Erasmus when he made the video excoriating Nic Berry, during the Lions series.

From about the 9:30 mark, they are very negative about how Erasmus has been acting. Ferguson even wonders if there might be an implosion in the Bok set-up if Erasmus can't control himself.

Yeah just watched that video, it was entertaining.

As Biltong says it's going to annoy a good chunk of SA fans, but at the same time reinforce that mindset that they're out to get us. I bang on about officials never costing a team a full stop but there's more on here (who lets be honest know their rugby far more than the gen pop or even rugby fans on broader sites such as the BBC) who think refs have cost or gifted teams. There's always going to be a split. I don't mind talking about, splitting hairs etc about decisions; I find it interesting and with the nature of the game and laws some decisions are hard to discern with numerous replays and when 1 law starts and another finishes. There will forever be more mistakes made by players than refs though.

In the past coaches have moaned about 'big' decisions (again I disagree that 1 error leading to a try is more relevant than an error which leads to a knock on, simply luck) but Erasmus seems to be broadening it to lots of little things (frankly some not even erros merely judgement or which foul is worse!), ignoring other errors. That's led to direct abuse of refs which is bang out of order. He's not a fan, he's very high profile and should know better and needs to be held to account (frankly more than he has been).

https://twitter.com/GoodBadRugby/status/1603039297959067648?t=-aM_TCGEDe1BXGypMg-29w&s=19

Heard that some refs had requested not to officiate SA after the Erasmus comments and now to see this you see why. Might end up more inexperienced up and comers being put forward who need to make a name?

Wayne Barnes has indicated he and his family were threatened through social media after Erasmus went off.  On one hand, in today's world if one has the guts to get in front of a camera (and refs are in front of the camera as much as any player), one must also know the moronic crap that comes with it.  And that is getting worse.  

On the other hand, there is no purpose, ratonale, logic, or sanity which justifies this type of crap.  Threatening sexual abuse toward his wife?  Threatening kids?  Over a game?  Why would anyone want to be a ref (or in the public eye)?

This stuff is not on Rassie, but sure as sh!t, there are addled people out there - everywhere - just waiting for someone to light their fuse.  And everyone's fuses are getting shorter and shorter.  

“On the Saturday night, there started to be some direct abuse at Polly. Then, the following two or three days, there was direct abuse to Polly, threats of sexual violence and threats against the kids.  “That takes it to a different level. When you’ve done 100 games, you think you can prepare for most things. You can’t prepare for that. It’s been a s----- couple of weeks.

“I don’t mind people criticising my performance and, if they want to abuse me directly, that’s their choice. But that wasn’t just a line that was crossed. You couldn’t even see the line, it had gone that far. It affects you and it affects your family.”

'Of course I have questioned my refereeing future'
Barnes was asked whether he felt that the actions of Erasmus, whom he has not spoken to since the game, had contributed to the vitriol.

“I don’t know the answer to that. What I would say is that if people see people in positions who are meant to uphold the values of our game openly criticising referees then it allows others to say, ‘People in positions of power can criticise, why can’t I?’”

quotes from the Telegraph, 14 December 2022 • 12:01am

That was absolutely abhorrent what Barnes experienced. Disgusting.