Scotland's 6N Build Up, Then Inevitable Fall: Dark Horses of the Year 10 years running

First topic message reminder :

It's the hope that kills ya!

McDonald always had an epic rugby brain, intelligent player and coach. I was also hoping the Welsh could get him if we can't get Robertson!

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Rumours abound that scotty Robertson has been approached by the SRU again.

Well now that England, Wales and Ireland are wrapped up, with our current form and trajectory, you would say we are likely the next best bet

Smart money is still on him getting the NZ gig though, he was angling after it again in the media last week and these rumours may just be about forcing the NZRU hands!

I'm just going to put this out there but have any of us actually seen/followed a Scott Robertson coached side? Do we know his selection strategy?  I know his club record is outstanding but I am wary of joining the Scott Robertson hype train. Just look at Rennie for instance.

Big marquee signing, has this NZ rugby mystique, yet can't win a title with Glasgow, alienates half of our players and stagnates the clubs player development unless it was for his favourites. Moves to Australia, they haven't exactly set the world alight, fired 3 years later.

I'm not saying Robertson would definitely be like that but I feel a lot of people forget that he's not actually coached beyond club. It'd potentially be another (and potentially more expensive) Toonie "learn on the job" situation which is definitely not what Scotland need right now!

Yes, I'm not an expert but I usually follow the Super Rugby season and have watched the Crusaders with interest.

Robertson is known for 3 things - his seeming ability to build his teams' strategy around the strengths of his individual players - rather than setting a team strategy and hammering square pegs into round holes to achieve it (so the exact opposite of Eddie Jones), his mandate to attack at all times and the fact that he is a superb man manager and all of his players seem to love him.

George Carlin wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Rumours abound that scotty Robertson has been approached by the SRU again.

Well now that England, Wales and Ireland are wrapped up, with our current form and trajectory, you would say we are likely the next best bet

Smart money is still on him getting the NZ gig though, he was angling after it again in the media last week and these rumours may just be about forcing the NZRU hands!

I'm just going to put this out there but have any of us actually seen/followed a Scott Robertson coached side? Do we know his selection strategy?  I know his club record is outstanding but I am wary of joining the Scott Robertson hype train. Just look at Rennie for instance.

Big marquee signing, has this NZ rugby mystique, yet can't win a title with Glasgow, alienates half of our players and stagnates the clubs player development unless it was for his favourites. Moves to Australia, they haven't exactly set the world alight, fired 3 years later.

I'm not saying Robertson would definitely be like that but I feel a lot of people forget that he's not actually coached beyond club. It'd potentially be another (and potentially more expensive) Toonie "learn on the job" situation which is definitely not what Scotland need right now!

Yes, I'm not an expert but I usually follow the Super Rugby season and have watched the Crusaders with interest.

Robertson is known for 3 things - his seeming ability to build his teams' strategy around the strengths of his individual players - rather than setting a team strategy and hammering square pegs into round holes to achieve it (so the exact opposite of Eddie Jones), his mandate to attack at all times and the fact that he is a superb man manager and all of his players seem to love him.

All sounds very lovely but also very similar to Toonie pre Scotland, and we all know what a rollercoaster that's been!

BigGee wrote:Dodson is talking to Leon Mcdonald according to the Daily Mail.

He may actually be a more reslistic prospect than Robertson in all honesty.


The funny thing is that after a few seasons of slating Toonie, they are now trumpetting that it is disgraceful he is not been given another contract!

Can someone post the article and today's one where Rob Robertson criticizes the SRU because I tried to open both but need to bloody subscribe .

Definitely one organisation i am not subscribing to is the Daily Mail!

Robertson, there rugby man posted a picture of the printed page on twitter.

I saw another post about it as well, i think The Rugby Paper

Ah ok I thought you had posted what you read but I assume you just saw the headline via tweet ?

What the article does suggest is that it's more or less a given that GT is off come October /November time and that, as we wanted/hoped, the DRY have begun the process of identifying candidates already.

Despite the improved form this year, on balance, it is probably time for a new coach

I suspect all parties realise that if they are being honest

BigGee wrote:Despite the improved form this year, on balance, it is probably time for a new coach

I suspect all parties realise that if they are being honest

I'd actually agree. This tournament feels like a last hurrah for the golden generation and Toonie is included in that. Yes, other than Nel pretty much all of those players will probably still be playing rugby in 2 years time, but in terms of player peak, form and circumstance (England Wales being a bit of a basket case) this is probably as good a chance as we'll get.

This then presents a real opportunity for new life to be brought in after the WC, with new ideas and a rebuild on the cards.

Saying that, if we miraculously somehow win the 6N will they really be able to let Toonie go??

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:Despite the improved form this year, on balance, it is probably time for a new coach

I suspect all parties realise that if they are being honest

I'd actually agree. This tournament feels like a last hurrah for the golden generation and Toonie is included in that. Yes, other than Nel pretty much all of those players will probably still be playing rugby in 2 years time, but in terms of player peak, form and circumstance (England Wales being a bit of a basket case) this is probably as good a chance as we'll get.

This then presents a real opportunity for new life to be brought in after the WC, with new ideas and a rebuild on the cards.

Saying that, if we miraculously somehow win the 6N will they really be able to let Toonie go??

Oh no you didn't go there.

Beattie seems keen for the SRU to stick with Toonie, but I really can't see it happening regardless of the remaining results. He's been head coach for ages and we've not even won a triple crown let alone a 6N title. The bar has to be set high despite our playing pool limitations.

Triple Crown, 6N title, a first win against NZ and making the world cup semi finals are all the sort of targets Scotland should be hitting. Toonie has not achieved any of these yet but he does have an excellent win % ratio. If that were the only target then I would expect Townsend to remain.

George Carlin wrote:

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:Despite the improved form this year, on balance, it is probably time for a new coach

I suspect all parties realise that if they are being honest

I'd actually agree. This tournament feels like a last hurrah for the golden generation and Toonie is included in that. Yes, other than Nel pretty much all of those players will probably still be playing rugby in 2 years time, but in terms of player peak, form and circumstance (England Wales being a bit of a basket case) this is probably as good a chance as we'll get.

This then presents a real opportunity for new life to be brought in after the WC, with new ideas and a rebuild on the cards.

Saying that, if we miraculously somehow win the 6N will they really be able to let Toonie go??

Oh no you didn't go there.

Dear Lord RDW!! Stay out of the sun and keep safe!!

I'm clear in my mind that Toonie should leave. I just don't have a sense yet of who should replace him. His reign will be tough to judge. Some cracking performances, and wonderful victories against sides we don't historically beat, but also a sense of what could have been, no major accomplishments (so far - that's for you RDW) and a record of mismanaging some key players.

Neither Franco Smith nor Mike Blair are candidates for me. Smith is doing a wonderful job at Glasgow but early days and I'd want him to stay there. Blair was equally transformative for Edinburgh initially, but I'm concerned he isn't a Head Coach or natural leader, and that performance against Scarlets will haunt me for a long time.

One to ponder.

I see Dan McKellar just took the head coach job at Leicester so it won't be him.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm clear in my mind that Toonie should leave. I just don't have a sense yet of who should replace him. His reign will be tough to judge. Some cracking performances, and wonderful victories against sides we don't historically beat, but also a sense of what could have been, no major accomplishments (so far - that's for you RDW) and a record of mismanaging some key players.

Neither Franco Smith nor Mike Blair are candidates for me. Smith is doing a wonderful job at Glasgow but early days and I'd want him to stay there. Blair was equally transformative for Edinburgh initially, but I'm concerned he isn't a Head Coach or natural leader, and that performance against Scarlets will haunt me for a long time.

One to ponder.

I think it's not so much his record, more that if cotter had stayed longer and Toonie had gained more experience that would have worked out better for everyone. A lot of the best Toonie results came immediately post-Cotter. I think we could have won something by now be it a triple crown or even a 6 nations title.

The one thing I think Toonie has done that Vern may not have is future proofed our depth in several positions. The flipside of that is his main letdown is, ironically, selection.

I think we'll all look back on a mixed picture and wonder if we could've done better. I look back on VC and think we did the best with where we were as a union at the time, in fact punched above our weight.

As I said I'm not sold on these super rugby coaches being fast tracked to international coach status. I'd rather someone like Dan McFarland or Lancaster who have time under their belts. Franco Smith is perfect it's just a shame/great he's doing so well with Glasgow!

The bottom line for me is that we need to expand the talent base of coaches in Scotland, not to hand the same guys around. We should be looking to bring someone new into the national set up. That is infinitely preferable to trying to save money and recycle the same folk.

Franco needs to absolutely stay where he is.

The thing that I always worry about is that (a) every coach who comes to coach Glasgow or Edinburgh is 'on a promise' for the national team job and (b) that's why they come in the first place. I can imagine Dodson's standard schtick about 'just play your cards right son and you too can get a chance to shout at Stuart Hogg in 2 years'.

I wonder about someone like Chris Boyd, former Saints coach. A major proponent of running rugby which would suit our players, but with the sort of SH accent that makes folk listen! Perhaps also to mentor an assistant coach or two.

He's 64, which Jimbo tells me is the new 40.

I think ( having been totally against toonies appointment and considering he hindered the team ) that a successful 6N ( 2nd at worst) and a WC (getting out of the pool) and he should stay - we might as well reap the rewards of his on the job learning.

I don't think the WC is going to come into play in the decision about whether Toonie stays or goes.

Discussions are clearly ongoing, with him and others atm and a decision is going to get made in the not to distant future.

Tom English, who often has the inside track seems to be of the opinion that he wants to stay and that Dodson wants to keep him.

I am not convinced that this is the best plan but i guess time will tell.

BigGee wrote:I don't think the WC is going to come into play in the decision about whether Toonie stays or goes.

Discussions are clearly ongoing, with him and others atm and a decision is going to get made in the not to distant future.

Tom English, who often has the inside track seems to be of the opinion that he wants to stay and that Dodson wants to keep him.

I am not convinced that this is the best plan but i guess time will tell.

I think he'd have to achieve something quite dramatic to stay like a Grandslam followed by WC semi finals.

The time is right for someone new I think, toonie's had his opportunity, arguably been given a lot more slack than others and probably would be outstaying his welcome!

As I said there were positives to his time as coach but this year won't gloss over the last three!

Unfortunately I think your right @NeilyBroon, I am resigned to him being gone come November time especially if Dodson is also off as I've seen mentioned in the past.

The good thing is, he won't be short of offers. In fact could he be in the running for Edinburgh or would that not go down well seeing as he is a former Glasgow head coach?

It was interesting to hear Johnnie Beattie suggest on the podcast that Gregor would be a contender for French jobs due to being able to speak the language.

As has been mentioned, only time will tell :-P

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:I don't think the WC is going to come into play in the decision about whether Toonie stays or goes.

Discussions are clearly ongoing, with him and others atm and a decision is going to get made in the not to distant future.

Tom English, who often has the inside track seems to be of the opinion that he wants to stay and that Dodson wants to keep him.

I am not convinced that this is the best plan but i guess time will tell.

I think he'd have to achieve something quite dramatic to stay like a Grandslam followed by WC semi finals.

The time is right for someone new I think, toonie's had his opportunity, arguably been given a lot more slack than others and probably would be outstaying his welcome!

As I said there were positives to his time as coach but this year won't gloss over the last three!

From what I see from over here in the Colonies is Scotland have now developed players and a team competitive with anyone (especially when playing with the same self-belief against other teams as against England!).  Yes, some of your key players are getting long in the tooth (I love to say that about people in their early 30s).  But Toonie has you boys at a real great place with the RWC just over the hill.  And you are talking about making the captain walk the plank with the promised land just over the horizon?   Gawd, that is such an.....English.....thing to do.

There are no excuses now. Scotland have to beat at least one of France and Ireland. We are coming off two wins, Settled squad and coach. Are they good enough? Dare I hope?

TJ wrote:There are no excuses now.  Scotland have to beat at least one of France and Ireland.  We are coming off two wins, Settled squad and coach.  Are they good enough?  Dare I hope?

You can't. You just can't go there. It's like an episode of Black Mirror where we're winning until the 79th minute and then the ref sends the entire team off for bearing their arses to the east stand in pre-emptive celebration.

Do I want Italy to win this?

Oh wells

I don’t like this feeling. It’s not expectation, far from it, but it’s not abject resignation that we’ll lose with only a hint of, we may win so that will be a nice surprise

It’s nervousness about the actual possibility of three wins on the bounce.

Sod knows how the team slept last night but I had a restless one.

Very, Very odd

Really don’t get where all this expectation is coming from.

We have not been very good for the first 2 games and have played the 2 worst teams by far

I really don’t think we have progressed at all this year and have only played 2 halfs of rugby

France will be a real test and I am not confident

I hope to be proved wrong

We've got this - these frenchies won't know what's hit them.

Alternatively, we're gonna get smashed.

Either way I'll be asleep so good luck everyone!

Agree totally with Risky there. However, also believe that we could sneak a win today.
France should win. We might win.
We will be disappointed if we don't.
Some people believe Boris Johnson was a superb PM and Biden stole the US election.
Go figure.

It’s not the victories, and yes England and wales have been honking, but the way we’ve been playing shows we have a chance.

Again I’m not saying we will win. I’m saying we can win.

Unfortunately I think we are going to get pumped.
Toonie has picked a small mobile back row to slow the French ball down.
They in turn will give it to their huge ball carriers who will smash us into submission before spinning it out for some easy run ins.
It is the hope that kills you.
Finn to have a mare. Just sayin.
Hope I’m terribly wrong but I’ve got a bad feeling

Oh well. Back to what could have been and the hype train crashed before getting back to U.K. soil

Look, the red cards made the game a bit of a mess. 14 vs 14 pretty much chucks the systems out the window.

For me the biggest thing to come out of today is that once again, when we come up against a physically dominant side, that’s when we struggle. It’s still a huge worry with Ireland and SA in our WC group.

It’s the World Cup we need to look at now. I’m sorry but no one will remember a triple crown win even if we do hear Ireland in 2 weeks.

tigertattie wrote:Oh well. Back to what could have been and the hype train crashed before getting back to U.K. soil

Look, the red cards made the game a bit of a mess. 14 vs 14 pretty much chucks the systems out the window.

For me the biggest thing to come out of today is that once again, when we come up against a physically dominant side, that’s when we struggle. It’s still a huge worry with Ireland and SA in our WC group.

It’s the World Cup we need to look at now. I’m sorry but no one will remember a triple crown win even if we do hear Ireland in 2 weeks.

That's a totally wrong focus tattie. A triple crown would be a huge result for the group and our first meaningful piece of silverware in the 6N period. Would also mean beating the best team in the world to do so, a team who has had our number for a long time.

A triple crown would be a huge success and rightly celebrated.

If we beat Ireland in two weeks then to me the monkey off the back and the team knowing they can beat Ireland is worth more than a triple crown. Honestly no one will remember it in 3/4 years time.

What it will do is give us confidence going against them at the World Cup.

I just really wish we were going at them in what would be a title decider. Big stakes. Big team. We’d then really see what we were made of. Of course the other way of looking at it is that we can go at them with no pressure on us which should make winning easier and thus giving us that boost before the World Cup. Our issue for years has been mental fragility and os these huge games we need to step up for

tigertattie wrote:

BigGee wrote:Uni Antonio gets 3 weeks for his high tackle on the Irish hooker last weekemd.

Well that is one 25 stone Frenchman we won't have to be worrying about in Paris, though they will likely have another big lad to take his place!

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but won’t this lead to the fella that Jamie Ritchie suckered into giving him a whack and thus getting sent off coming into the team?

Why didn’t I play the lottery this weekend

Huw Jones really was good against France - he's had a great tournament.

Another credit in the Toonie bank - that was a major selection call this tournament and he's got it completely right.

Most dangerous running 13 in the game? He's definitely up there with Rieko Ioane! Haven't seen any issues with his defence too which was historically seen as his weakness.

Some good stats in this thread

https://twitter.com/JLyall93/status/1629966812967313408?t=4ijf8clytZ5vl9e1rZ-Uyw&s=19

It's not just HJ either, but the whole midfield partnership just seems completely on the same wavelength

Some of the passing between them is just sublime

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64780196


Others it seems are taking note of Shuggie's rise!

After yesterday and the fact we're playing very well and attacking this 6N I have made my mind up once and for all; Gregor Townsend MUST STAY so that he can build on the progress.

I am still fearful that he won't be our coach come 6N 2024 because coaches rarely last anymore than 2 world cup cycles (apart from Warren Gatland who must have lasted at least 10yrs in his first spell as Wales coach), especially if Mr Dodson doesn't offer him a new contract soon after the 6N because he won't be short on offers and he will be getting frustrated at the lack of a new contract offer and may start eyeing a return to the club game.

I must say, we are a joy to watch now, even when we lose like yesterday because we go down fighting and with the mentality to attack even from our own try line . I know most on this forum will think I'm mad lol but believe me, I can remember when we were durw under Matt Williams, Scott Johnson and Andy Robinson (jeez that Tonga loss still stings).

That's all well and good Highland Shaun, but...

While many of us are delighted with the 6 Nations so far, beating England at Twickers and thumping Wales while taking France to the wire, many of us (Toonie included) feel that the performances in the first two matches left a lot to be desired.

So, let's imagine Ireland steamroller us; which given that they are the number one side in the world and we haven't beaten them since FES last gave his domestic staff a Christmas bonus, isn't that unlikely. Then imagine that the most improved team in the northern hemisphere come to Murrayfield the following week fresh from putting Wales to the sword and beat us.

Where does Toonie stand then?
Would he be rugby's Kwasi Kwarteng? Would he come third behind Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn in a Lead Us Through A Minefield contest?

On the other hand, if we get lucky against Ireland; Ragnar holds onto the ball instead of bouncing it off the try line, if Mbawsa and Chuckles spend the week binge watching Fred Astaire and Ginger Rodgers movies and discover the secret of flawless timing, if the ref doesn't make the laws up as he goes along...you know really lucky,  and Italy are totally burnt out after punching above their weight for four matches on the bounce and we stuff them

Then is Toonie a great coach?

Personally, if we lose to Ireland then we're still playing really good rugby and losing to the big boys. We probably won't get out our group at the World Cup.
If we beat Ireland we can spend the next few months riding the caboose on the Hype Express.

Sadly, I am not sure we have progressed that much.

First 2 games, against the worst 2 teams and we played fairly poorly for half of the games. We got the wins (England lucky Farrell could not kick) and Wales who are rank at the moment.

We then come to France, and I have seen this glorious failure far too often.

With the possession and territory in that second half we actually should have won, but we blew chance after chance after chance.

If we have taken the penalties and got 3 points each time, we would likely have put more pressure on them and been ahead

Finn, while had some good moments, equally had some brain farts.

The overthrow was typical

Sorry, but while we have some good cameos, overall nothing now to see here

Sorry if I sound negative, but I really can see us only winning 3 and a real chance of Italy beating us, so 2

At least it is exciting to watch, which is nice

I’m perplexed. Sitting watching the highlights of the Gallagher prem and I’m reminded that Euan Ashman exists. Putting the Brown brain fart to the side, why on Earth is chuckles in a match day squad ahead of Ashman is who just a better player all round???

Great game and two deserved red cards but were Scotland lucky not to get another one? I remember being quite surprised there was no TMO review of Schoemans forearm to Duponts face.

https://youtu.be/-yn9K6RU8Hc

I think you're in a minority here Shaun! Toonie has done well to claw it back before the WC but I still can't see us getting out of our group. Yes we're playing better because after 5 years of practice Toonie has finally got the selection right but it's not enough to justify him staying another WC cycle given we will have potentially missed out on 2 quarters in 8 years. I think if we're to win anything we need fresh eyes to take us another step forward.

On that, I think Toonie hasn't progressed us much since cotter, which is either testament to cotters impact or damning to toonie's. Yes we have the best win record but that's after a foundation was put in place from 30 to 50%, and if that's the foundation we've barely made about one brick course on top.

I expect this will be toonie's swansong, and will probably be good for him and Scotland. Leave on a high, Gatland is a prime example of what not to do!

I think my opinion comes from the fact that I can remember the dire performances under Matt Williams etc and as I said, how we've transformed into a team that is more exciting to watch than before, the same applies to Edinburgh though as a neutral on that point, I just watching their games win, lose or draw.

I totally respect you guys and your opinions but remember, some of you have been supporting Scotland years before me :P.

I do agree with you @NeilyBroon despite what Tom English said on the midweek podcast last week, he basically said that Gregor is keen to stay and Dodson is also keen on the idea but I struggle to find out where Tom gets that info from .

So in summary, by November/December time we'll be looking for a new coach unless one is appointed way before then just like Vern Cotter who was announced weeks or months before his first game.

Yeah bringing back Gatland was a terrible move by the WRU. Gatland will be happy with the payday but I can’t see him having the same dogged determination to transform Wales all over again.

New coach for Scotland would be a great move. Who knows, just because Toonie leaves doesn’t mean he would never take up the job again the future.

The Gatland move was an attempt to paper over the cracks. He recognised the golden generation in Wales were hitting their 30's and decided to head home. He did okay at the Chiefs after a terrible Covid season but it did not seem like they were that sad to see him go.

Townsend to be fair has proven that he can adapt his approach but some of his stubborness has proven costly over his tenure. His on-and-off relationship with Russell, love affair with Kinghorn at 10 and exiling of Huw Jones come to mind.

I dont think Gatland won any games with the Chiefs as coach did he? Very few anyway if any at all. His losing streak as coach is staggering.