Scotland World Cup buildup

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Italy
Saturday 29 July

Scotland v France
Saturday 5 August

France v Scotland
Saturday 12 August

Scotland v Georgia
Saturday 26 August

I think it's only fair to start another thread for this topic because I can see it being a popular topic in terms of discussion .

First things first is that 3 wins from 5 and a 3rd place finish probably exceeded expectations because most would have said 2 wins and the 4th place win, the one that most would have called was England to beat us as they were at home so imho we certainly deserve enormous credit for that one because we played very well against an England team that also had their moments, in fact I could already see improvements from the Eddie Jones era during that game and until DVDM clinched it at the death, I was still pretty worried we wouldn't win so was understandably over the moon that we did win.

The Wales and Italy matches were mixed bags tbh but we did get 5pts from both which was crucial, the Welsh game we didn't really perform first half and were in fact fortunate to go in at half time ahead but second half we were excellent and deserved the bonus point win.  The Italy game was a mixed bag in terms of; we had patches where we did well and others where we were hanging on, such as the last 2mins, I also felt that in that game our top centre pairing of Huwipulotu were quiet in attack though DVDM was a bit more involved that he had been in the previous few weeks before.

The France game was bloody frustrating because we showed glimpses of how well we can play especially in the second half for large parts but we were guilty of missing key opportunities and indiscipline from the captain of all people was our undoing which is where the frustration comes because as fans, we expect our captain to know what the ref will tolerate in terms of backchat!

The Ireland game was a game of 2 halfs, in the first half we were going toe to toe with them, it was probably the best we've played against them in a very long time; second half was a completely different story, we basically just capitalutated and handed the game to them with basic errors and more stupid indiscipline.

In terms of the coach, I have made my feelings known and really hope that the situation is resolved by at least mid to late April as we really need clarity on the situation!

Finally, for the summer warm up matches I'd like to see fringe players like Cameron Henderson, Ben Healy, Stafford McDowall, Kyle Rowe and Ollie Smith get some game time to see what they can offer either at the world cup (unlikely) or next 6N in 2024 .

According to Mark Palmer, Toonie to be offerred a 2 year extension.

That is probably the best compromise. Let him continue to build with the players who know him and there is a get out clause if it is not working out.

I would be happy with that, but will he be?

Here is the full article - Mark Palmer in the Times


Gregor Townsend is set to be offered a two-year contract extension that will keep the Scotland head coach in charge until 2025. His present contract expires after this autumn’s World Cup.

It has emerged that before the SRU decided to hand Townsend a longer deal, Warren Gatland held talks with the union’s chief executive about replacing the 82-cap former fly half. The conversation between Gatland and the SRU chief executive, Mark Dodson, is understood to have taken place at the start of 2023, before the New Zealander agreed to return to take the Wales job. There was persistent speculation at that time that Gatland would take over from Eddie Jones as the England head coach.

Gatland and Townsend previously worked together on the 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, when the Kiwi was head coach and the Scot was in charge of the attack.

Leon MacDonald, the Auckland Blues head coach, was also involved in preliminary discussions with Scotland as the top Murrayfield executives prepared for a future after Townsend. However, the Gala man has since overseen a largely positive Six Nations campaign, finishing third after winning three games — including against England and Wales — with an attractive brand of attacking rugby.

The Times understands that a two-year extension has been prepared for Townsend’s consideration. His present deal expires at the end of the World Cup in France this September and October, and the 49-year-old has already publicly acknowledged an approach from France to discuss becoming part of Fabien Galthié’s backroom team after the global gathering.


Asked about his future immediately after the Six Nations, Townsend said: “I’ve had initial conversations the last couple of the weeks, and we’ll be getting some time over the next few weeks to have a bigger chat about it in more depth.

“The focus in the last two weeks has been these games. After a few days off I’m sure these conversations will start up again. I’ve indicated I need some time to think about it, especially when the tournament was in full flow. I’ll have some reflecting and time off and discussions will start again soon.”


Pressed on whether he wanted to stay, the former Glasgow coach said: “Yes, at this stage, but it’s not the time to be answering these questions when you’re just off a victory [against Italy], the crowd are behind the team and you’re connected with the players. It’s a great feeling, but I don’t want to commit to anything just now.”

Dodson, to whom Townsend has been closely aligned over the past decade, is himself on a contract which expires in 2025. Townsend has been in charge since 2017, when Dodson controversially decided to jettison Vern Cotter in favour of the coach who had led Glasgow Warriors to the Pro12 title two years previously.

“This is a crucial decision for the union,” the chief executive said this week. “It’s something you’d expect me, as CEO, to do a huge amount of work on — and we’ve been doing that work since last autumn. We’re now at the closing stages.

“We’ve had a process this time — which Gregor has been aware of — looking at what is the right voice to take us forward from 2023 onwards. It’s been less about Gregor’s track record in what he’s done in tournaments up until the Six Nations and about what’s right for this group of players, who are going to be in transition from ‘23 to ‘27. What’s the right voice?

“As part of that we’ve done a huge amount of due diligence. We’ve spoken to coaches all over the globe about how they see Scotland and, if they were able to do the job, how would they undertake the task. We’ve finished that due diligence process. I was clear with Gregor right from the get-go that this is what we were going to do.

“He was also free to talk to people about his own future, and things have come out about conversations that have happened in France and potentially elsewhere. This is entirely expected. It’s not his first rodeo and it’s not mine, we understand this is the way the world works. I’m speaking to Gregor this week and we’ll see where we go.

“We know how the players feel. The players are very pro-Gregor. The players have thrived under Gregor, we’re aware of that. What I’ve got to do and what [performance director] Jim Mallinder’s got to do, we’ve got to zone all that out — what the supporters feel, what the websites feel, what the players feel almost — and actually take a holistic view, coolly and dispassionately and have a look on paper. What is the best voice to take us forward? How do we improve? How do we stop this being a glass ceiling? How do we get to the next level?

“If we believe that is Gregor or we believe that is somebody else, that’s the job I’m paid to do. In terms of support for Gregor inside the camp, that’s pretty clear.

“We’ve known each other a long time, we haven’t always seen eye-to-eye over things. We have a very good working relationship, but he’s his own man and I’m mine. The most important thing is there’s a trust and a belief we will do things the right way.”

The SRU declined to comment.

At least we dodged a bullet with Gats!

According to the Times Toonie gets a 2 year extension after the world cup. Did think that the fat controller was protesting too much with his public proclamations, hinting that Toonie might not be the man to take us to one in the world etc. etc.
I just pray to all that is holy we get to keep Brad Mooar as our attack coach, cause along with Mr T's rational selection policy that has been the biggest improvement for this 6 N's.
Does that mean Gregor lasts long enough to get both his boys pro contacts in Scotland?

Once again looks like I'm completely wrong in my hunch!

The more I think about it, the more weird the comment that Dodson wants to soberly consider the polemicists, the nut jobs and the Professionally Outraged which populate the swamp of the internet and set that opinion off against what the players actually think.

Ah wow I think that is one prediction I have actually got right.

That retains stability across the coaching group. Although the talk is about Townsend his assistants have been doing a very good job as a group. There is plenty of room for improvement in the lineout and scrum but a lot of the errors are very fixable unlike teams of the past which were fundamentally not good enough.

It is quite cringey to watch some of the games under Andy Robinson. We were getting sliced open with ease and struggling to string phases together. Now Scotland look organised and the talent is there. The Oriam training centre seems very good and I am actually a fan of big boy Dodson, he is far from perfect but he clearly works hard behind the scenes. His comments on working with Italy in the bbc rugby pod are very interesting. It could also help Italy find their next level of performance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0fdvnmv?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

BigGee wrote:At least we dodged a bullet with Gats!

I think Gatland has been a fine coach, but his style of play and coaching is completely wrong for our current group of players. That would have been a disaster. Having been fairly grumpy on Toonie in the past, he's made some better calls this season, most importantly moving Jones to 13 in place of that plodder Harris. It's made a massive difference. I think he's also realised the true importance of Finn this year. He's everything to this team. Not a bad outcome.

Is it only me or is anyone else getting concerned by the lack of news/update regarding Gregor and his potential new contract because that bloke Mark Palmer expected it to have been signed or agreed last week ?

Leon McDonald announced as one of Scott Robertson's assistant coaches, so he's now out the Scotland running (if he was ever in it!)

RDW wrote:Leon McDonald announced as one of Scott Robertson's assistant coaches, so he's now out the Scotland running (if he was ever in it!)

I was expecting news of Gregor accepting the new contract after that news broke just after 3ish so I'm getting increasingly worried that he's still mulling over job offers . Surely he'd have signed it by now anyway despite the Leon MacDonald link as he'd either expect the news of above or he wouldn't wait for the same expected news!

I wonder what the hold up is, we need news asap so we can move on!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12028823/Scotland-star-Stuart-Hogg-reveals-true-toll-elite-sport-prepares-retire.html

Bit more detail from Hoggy.

He needs to be careful he even makes the world cup, all this chat of knowing he's not the player he used to be and that his body can't hold up any longer...!

On form, will he go?

Ollie Smith had a good game on Saturday and Blairhorn will be on the plane barng injuries.

I would say that unless he can rouse something from the broken body, he is third choice at best now.

I do hope Toonie only takes him if his form justifies it and not for sny sentimental reasons.

I'd say with confidence he'll be in the squad, but agree he'll have a fight on his hands to start. He's already lost his starting place at Exeter.

33 man squads this year so something like

Props - Schoeman, Bhatti, Sutherland, Fagerson, Nel
Hooker - Turner, Ashman, Brown/Cherry/McIanlly
Lock - Gray, Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner
BR - Ritchie, Watson, Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie

9 - Horne, White, Price
10 - Finn, Hastings
C - Tuipolotu, Jones, McDowell
Back 3 - VDM, Graham, Smith, Hogg, Kinghorn
Utility - Steyn

Some creative liberties taken on some selections, but that looks a reasonable balance.

Johnny Gray looked like he took a bad leg injury for Exeter yesterday, that could be a problem. Henderson could be a bolter if he is not fit.

Johnny Mathews absolutely tearing it up for Glasgow atm, would not surprise me if he will make the larger squad and could push for a place.

McDowell is playing well and it may be between him and Redpath for the final centre spot.

No doubt form and injuries will play there part before sept

Dislocated kneecap for Jonny...!

I see Wales announced their training squad earlier on so when is ours announced ?

I'd imagine Toonie will want to see how Glasgow gets on in the knockout stages of the challenge cup and the URC.

otherwise, couple of players at Northampton, Sarries, Sale and Leicester in the prem knock outs to have an eye on before finalising the squad (Gatland has the benefit of all welsh rugby having concluded for the season already).

Johnny Gray having surgery on his knee and doubtful for the WC according to Rob Baxter.

Perhaps not quite as central to our fortunes as he once was, nevertheless he would be a big miss from the squad. I thought he played very well when he got his chance at the tail end of the 6N and looked really hungry for the opportunity. It would be a shame if he did not get to do a final WC with the big brother as well.

Definitely an opportunity for Cam Henderson if he has a good end to the season with Leicester.

Fingers crossed that J Gray can get back in contention, even if he was an injury replacement in the squad. After R Gray, Cummings, Gilchrist and Skinner we are struggling a bit for experience.

It leaves one spot for Henderson, Hunter-Hill, Hodgson or Sykes

Craig's injury woes and Davidson's journeyman career (so far) stopped them developing.

The larger training squad for the WC is out tomorrow apparently.

I was trying to read Mark Palmers thoughts on it in the Times, but I have clearly already done to many free articles this week and could not get in.

BigGee wrote:The larger training squad for the WC is out tomorrow apparently.

I was trying to read Mark Palmers thoughts on it in the Times, but I have clearly already done to many free articles this week and could not get in.

When I said tomorrow, I did actually mean tuesday!

Getting a bit disorientated by all these bank holidays!

Townsend signs on until 2026!

Toonie haters gonna hate

Toonie lovers gonna love

For me, a sensible pragmatic decision. Gives continuity as we go into the World Cup but also gives the SRU time to find a new guy if things go wrong.

Said before and I’ll say it again. Toonie may not be the best out there, but he’s the best that would consider taking on Scotland.

RDW wrote:Townsend signs on until 2026!

One season too long methinks. Not from a dislike of Toonie but just incase the next 2 years post-world cup are awful and we need a bit longer of a rebuild before the next world cup.

otherwise, can't complain

Probably the best available compromise

2 years to test the water post WC and a break clause then if it is not working out. With the group we are in, I don't personally see not qualifying for the knock out stages as necessarily being a failure this time around.

I am looking forward to seeing the squad he announces later on today and as always with a Toonie squad, am wondering if we will have any bolters.

tigertattie wrote:.

Said before and I’ll say it again. Toonie may not be the best out there, but he’s the best that would consider taking on Scotland.

This

Given the current market, any other available option would be a punt.

Tramptastic wrote:

RDW wrote:Townsend signs on until 2026!

One season too long methinks. Not from a dislike of Toonie but just incase the next 2 years post-world cup are awful and we need a bit longer of a rebuild before the next world cup.

otherwise, can't complain

I doubt if he was realistically going to sign for much less than that. If it is not working out after 2 years, it won't cost them a fortune to lose him at that point, there may even be something that we don't know about built into his contract to that effect.

We will have a bit of re-building to do as well post WC and he is going to take the team forwards, then deserves the time to do that.

Glad that the SRU took their time on this one. Good choice in the end.

It does lead us in an awkward position if we have a terrible world cup. I think we're all realistic that there is a very slim chance of us qualifying from our group, and I don't think that should be a performance metric for him to keep his job to 2026.

But I think we'd be disappointed with limp or heavy defeats to Ireland and SA as it will show we're just continually not learning our lessons, and questions will definitely be asked if that's all we can serve up.

It's a tough one!

RDW wrote:It does lead us in an awkward position if we have a terrible world cup. I think we're all realistic that there is a very slim chance of us qualifying from our group, and I don't think that should be a performance metric for him to keep his job to 2026.

But I think we'd be disappointed with limp or heavy defeats to Ireland and SA as it will show we're just continually not learning our lessons, and questions will definitely be asked if that's all we can serve up.

It's a tough one!

The thing is, if we lose to Ireland like we did in the Six Nations i.e. threw the kitchen sink at them until we ran out of gas, we'd be ok with that.

I think if we lose to South Africa who are shorn of Kolisi and haven't noticeably changed their gameplan since 2019 that really would be considered a missed opportunity.

The losses are acceptable if the quality of the game is excellent. If its turgid, dismal and full of errors then we'll all be rightly upset.

It’s a decent shout keeping him on. He’s probably been as successful as we could hope for Scotland, and there currently probably isn’t an obvious candidate who could step in and do better.

On the training squad, Bradbury who has been largely out in the cold from a national team point of view, got player of the year at Bristol. Wonder if it’ll be enough to get him at least involved in the training squad.

You'd hope so, he's a bit of unfulfilled potential, always felt he could do more in a Scotland shirt! Fagerson comes across as a more intelligent player and Dempsey is more physical though

Tramptastic wrote:You'd hope so, he's a bit of unfulfilled potential, always felt he could do more in a Scotland shirt! Fagerson comes across as a more intelligent player and Dempsey is more physical though

If he is up against those 2, then I feel he is a long shot.

He has had plenty chances to be fair and you feel Toonie might have (justifiably) given up on him

BigGee wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:You'd hope so, he's a bit of unfulfilled potential, always felt he could do more in a Scotland shirt! Fagerson comes across as a more intelligent player and Dempsey is more physical though

If he is up against those 2, then I feel he is a long shot.

He has had plenty chances to be fair and you feel Toonie might have (justifiably) given up on him

My question was only related to getting into the training squad. I think he's got a good chance of making the wider training squad. He's potentially unlikely to make the final squad going to France, but he's been brilliant at Bristol, so deserves another once over from Toonie

Take out Fagerson and Dempsey and who is our next choice 8?

It's probably Bradbury.

Haining did a job for us in recent years but literally can't string more than one game together without physically falling apart.

Crosbie, Christie, Byaliss etc are all athletic flankers.

Muncaster still young and barely played all season.

I don't know for sure, but I have heard 40 in the wider training squad to be whittled down to 33

Not a huge amounts of scope for bringing in fringe players or wild cards who have not been in the recent squads.

Injury wise I don't think we are to bsdly off either, Just Johnny Gray and Dobie that I can think of and I am not sure hiw bad Dobie was, not much in the way of update from Glasgow.

EWT Spoons wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:You'd hope so, he's a bit of unfulfilled potential, always felt he could do more in a Scotland shirt! Fagerson comes across as a more intelligent player and Dempsey is more physical though

If he is up against those 2, then I feel he is a long shot.

He has had plenty chances to be fair and you feel Toonie might have (justifiably) given up on him

My question was only related to getting into the training squad.  I think he's got a good chance of making the wider training squad.  He's potentially unlikely to make the final squad going to France, but he's been brilliant at Bristol, so deserves another once over from Toonie

Shows what I know

Scotland training squad for Rugby World Cup 2023

Forwards

Looseheads

• Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) 28 caps
• Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 21 caps
• Rory Sutherland (Ulster Rugby) 23 caps

Hookers

• Ewan Ashman (Sale Sharks) 7 caps
• Dave Cherry (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps
• Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) 47 caps
• George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 35 caps

Tightheads

• Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 58 caps
• WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 54 caps
• Javan Sebastian (Scarlets) 3 caps
• Murphy Walker* (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps

Locks

• Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 25 caps
• Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 62 caps
• Richie Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 73 caps
• Cameron Henderson (Leicester Tigers) uncapped
• Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 25 caps

Backrow

• Andy Christie (Saracens) 4 caps
• Luke Crosbie (Edinburgh Rugby) 4 caps
• Rory Darge (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps
• Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 9 caps
• Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 33 caps
• Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – CAPTAIN – 41 caps
• Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) 57 caps

Backs

Scrumhalf

• Jamie Dobie (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap
• George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 20 caps
• Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 61 caps
• Ben White (London Irish) 14 caps

Standoff

• Adam Hastings (Gloucester Rugby) 27 caps
• Ben Healy (Munster Rugby) 1 caps
• Finn Russell (Racing 92) 69 caps

Centres

• Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby) 42 caps
• Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 36 caps
• Stafford McDowall (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped
• Cameron Redpath (Bath Rugby) 5 caps
• Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) 16 caps

Back 3

• Darcy Graham (Edinburgh Rugby) 33 caps
• Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs) 100 caps
• Blair Kinghorn** (Edinburgh Rugby) 43 caps
• Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
• Kyle Steyn (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps
• Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 28 caps


*Can play both sides but usually TH, so put him in with the THs
**You know why

Well the squad came out just as I typed my last post

I can't see any surprises there at all, a very settled squad in truth.

Surprise inclusion, maybe Murphy Walker, who can't seem to buy a gsme for Glasgow but does play both sides of the scrum.

Only notable omission would be JG and that is injury related.

It is all a bit dull to be honest!

Finn Russell to retire because, like a top madlad, he thinks he has the perfect amount of caps

I mean, its all fairly settled. Folk to trim include front rowers, a 2nd row, backrows, a centre and a scrum half.

should be simple enough to deduce who, McDowall maybe to push out Redpath being the only possible surprise when it comes to squad cut time

BigGee wrote:Well the squad came out just as I typed my last post

I can't see any surprises there at all, a very settled squad in truth.

Surprise inclusion, maybe Murphy Walker, who can't seem to buy a gsme for Glasgow but does play both sides of the scrum.

Only notable omission would be JG and that is injury related.

It is all a bit dull to be honest!

Well done!

What does Johnny Matthews have to do to get into the squad???

NeilyBroon wrote:What does Johnny Matthews have to do to get into the squad???

I know a guy who knows him and apparently he's not fussed, just happy to play for glasgow (dont think he's scottish, he's a geordie)

Tramptastic wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:What does Johnny Matthews have to do to get into the squad???

I know a guy who knows him and apparently he's not fussed, just happy to play for glasgow (dont think he's scottish, he's a geordie)

He is s Scouser!

Probably, not a lot in the hookers in all honesty, his lack of any international experience probably counting against him and he is not really sny younger than sny of the others.

Probably more of a surprise Fraser Brown not going.

BigGee wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:What does Johnny Matthews have to do to get into the squad???

I know a guy who knows him and apparently he's not fussed, just happy to play for glasgow (dont think he's scottish, he's a geordie)

He is s Scouser!

Probably, not a lot in the hookers in all honesty, his lack of any international experience probably counting against him and he is not really sny younger than sny of the others.

Probably more of a surprise Fraser Brown not going.

Big oops from me! dont want to get those 2 peoples confused!

Just listened to the interview with Toonie

Apparently it took over 2 hours just to pick the hookers, clearly one of the competitive positions.

Also said they have deliberately kept the squad smaller than it might have been, only players with a genuine chance of making final cut are in the squad. He felt that would lead to more cohesion withjn the squad. At this stage last time around, they picked 47 players, so clearly a change of emphasis.

Wigh Healy, Hastings and Finn all in the swuad. It does make you think that Blairhorn is going as a back three player.

Hogg is going to have to show some gorm to make the final cut, he is no shoe in!

BigGee wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:What does Johnny Matthews have to do to get into the squad???

I know a guy who knows him and apparently he's not fussed, just happy to play for glasgow (dont think he's scottish, he's a geordie)

He is s Scouser!

Probably, not a lot in the hookers in all honesty, his lack of any international experience probably counting against him and he is not really sny younger than sny of the others.

Probably more of a surprise Fraser Brown not going.

I mean, I'd say between Matthews and Cherry he's the better pick on form at the moment but hey ho, rest of the squad looks good, nice to see wee Darcy back!