England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

First topic message reminder :

June 1st-June 4th: One Test v Ireland (four days)
June 16th-July 31st: Five Tests v Australia
August 30th-September 5th: Four T20s v New Zealand
September 8th-September 15th: Four ODIs v New Zealand
September 20th-September 26th: Three ODIs v Ireland

England try to wrest the Ashes back from Australia, in a series which could be the greatest since 2005. Australia have currently held the urn for just over five years, which is the longest spell of urn-holding since the 1989-2005 period.

Ireland also visit for a test before that, and then there's some limited-overs games squashed into the last days of summer.

As an England fan it's obviously frustrating to see them go off in complete control, come back out with it nipping everywhere and lose two wickets. Given we often complain about umpires going off too easily for bad light or drizzle it would be fairly hypocritical for me to suddenly change my tune now. It's just the way it goes, annoyingly.

The upside for England is that we've seen not only the ball swing more but also seam more after some rainfall. Given the forecast for the next couple of days that is a boost for the bowlers.

First they need something to bowl at though. England have a powerful middle order. Prior to that freak dismissal Brook looked like he might still be batting now during the first innings for instance. They'll need to pick the conditions to attack though. Presuming there is no more play today it is going to be a fascinating days cricket tomorrow. This has been an excellent Test match.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Also - that was another ridiculous catch by Green.

He's right up there with the most talented catchers I've seen. The combination of that giant reach, brilliants hands and lightning reactions is lethal.

alfie wrote:Not sure Bazball had much to do with those dismissals , KP_fan !

Well they could not bazball is the point. When conditions get tough....bazballing evaporates ( means vanishes)

alfie wrote:Crawley - and Root when he came in - were just groping for the ball and hoping not to nick it. Scoring was far from front of mind.

Admire your optimism re Moeen's powers of recovery. Didn't look at all good to me. And I'm sure Duty will tell you what he thinks about a potential lead of 275

This is what his finger looks like
Not a wound or bleeding cut.....just peeled skin
He should be in a workable shape with a skin colored tape on. Won't be perfect & it might be better than a 80% recovered open finger
If I was him.....I would be practicing now the feel of ball thru a tape

What a comeback this is looking like. Covers are off, umpires walking around without umbrellas. Now umpires pointing at the outfield and talking to captains.

And...after all that play has been called off. Well, the umpires really did try.

Think we probably could've called that an hour ago.

Marginally England's day before the 20 minute burst I think. Now it's right in the balance.

Yep, after a flat first hour, England did well to fight back and garner a tiny lead. Robinson's key breakthrough of Khawaja actually led to him getting figures of 3/55, despite looking substandard for most of the innings.

That gave England an advantage, but the new ball bowling under dark cloud soon tipped it back round Australia's way. It's still brilliantly poised, though. Australia might win it tomorrow if they make further breakthroughs in the first hour; or England may power through to an 'interesting' declaration. Either way, I think Australia will be left with a gettable chase, provided the rain doesn't interfere.

As ever, a lot of the responsibility tomorrow falls on Root's shoulders. Pope has a terrible record in the second innings of tests (averages below 20, I think) and will have a tough battle v Lyon. If Root falls in the first half hour tomorrow, I fear a rout.

Weather's clear tomorrow, so I guess it'll be a long, 98 over day stretched across 7 hours (finishing later, not starting earlier). Tuesday's forecast not looking good.

GSC wrote:Think we probably could've called that an hour ago.

Marginally England's day before the 20 minute burst I think. Now it's right in the balance.

Definitely England's day when they first went off for me. Getting a slender lead then Crawley and Duckett looked so solid. Going at 4.5 runs an over largely by just rotating strike and the new ball doing very little. For a fleeting moment it felt like England's middle order might have a foundation to attack from with the Aussie bowlers under pressure.

Heading out tomorrow it will be the England batters under pressure but the game is so finely poised that one partnership could swing it.

I'm nervous and excited for D4 at the same time. Terrific Test cricket.

Obviously can never quite trust the forecast, but if Tuesday's reported is accurate that could be similar conditions to what England saw for that mini session today - on/off, cloudy, rain around all day type stuff...which obviously one Mr Anderson will be hoping for!

Think anything around 250 will be tough to chase personally.

Variability in available time, sudden possible help for seam bowlers and degree of availability of Moeen has made it hard to look ahead at possible scenarios for now

I think maybe getting Smith out early was the key batsman for England so far.   Mistakes and especially the weather then cost England dearly against the World Test Champions in my 'umble opinion.  ps it rained more overnight.

Yeah, you'd think the Test where England get Smith and Labuschagne out cheaply is the one they would win. But then the previously terrible in England, but much improved Khawaja scores the runs. This is why I think Australia will win the series, it's a team really peaking in terms of experience. Now or never for them really, they will have an almost entirely new team next time they are over here

[quote="VTR"]Yeah, you'd think the Test where England get Smith and Labuschagne out cheaply is the one they would win. But then the previously terrible in England, but much improved Khawaja scores the runs. This is why I think Australia will win the series, it's a team really peaking in terms of experience. Now or never for them really, they will have an almost entirely new team next time they are over here[/quote]

Or they could recall Peter Siddle.

Thoughts on yesterday:
Shame about the weather.
As soon as that Duckett stat about not leaving balls came out during the Ireland test, it seemed like something that would get targeted. Can't see him getting dropped from this team for not that though...
Really need Moeen to be able to bowl without too many issues, because the possibility of England having burned through this whole attack by day 5 is looming a bit.

For all although maybe looking at Alfie - I was reminded last night that in the first innings of the first Ashes Test at Birmingham in 2019, Steve Smith took Australia from 122/8 to 284 all out as he put on stands of 88 and 74 with Peter Siddle and Nathan Lyon.

Just saying.

Anyway, moving on ....

England going to ramp up Bazball today. Look to score 300 in the first two sessions and declare on or around tea, if not out by then.

They'd rather lose, than draw because they haven't gone for the win, and the forecast tomorrow doesn't look great.

KP_fan wrote:Variability in available time, sudden possible help for seam bowlers and degree of availability of Moeen has made it hard to look ahead at possible scenarios for now

Aw c'mon KP_Fan... you can't say such a thing!
We're all waiting (on tenterhooks) for your roadmap. There's only 4 possible outcomes after all.

OK, I'll have a go.

1. Pope and Root stabilise the situation, not thru bazzaball but batting sensible enuf and frustrating the aussie attack. Maybe lose one or 2 of them b4 lunch but 70% chance Bairstow & Co. pick up the pace again and set target of 250-275 halfway thru last session. Aust then crumble losing 2-3 wickets and the match is finished off before lunch D5. Note, Ali won't bowl much (coz of sore finger) but he won't be needed much anyways.

2. Similar to above, but OZ only set 150-200 to chase. 6 or 7 down by lunch tmrw... but weather forces a draw. Mo can rest his finger a bit more but still doubts for T2... not enuf time 60% probability... 50% max.

3. England collapse, not thru bazbal but by pummeled by Oz bowling. All out around tea... or jus b4 with 75-80 to chase for Oz. Warner does IPL approach assisted by Carey (who is moved up the order) and all over around close of play D4. Ali's finger still sore but not much he culd've done anyways.

4. Similar to 3 abve... but bigger Target. Irrelevant anyways and Aus chase down tmrw morning before big storm hits. Mo gets to bowl but by this time it's too late for him to have any effect.

So, Siddle to play in the 2027 Ashes, as an opening batsman?

guildfordbat wrote:For all although maybe looking at Alfie - I was reminded last night that in the first innings of the first Ashes Test at Birmingham in 2019, Steve Smith took Australia from 122/8 to 284 all out as he put on stands of 88 and 74 with Peter Siddle and Nathan Lyon.

Just saying.

Anyway, moving on ....

Better make sure we set them more than 284 then... although Smith won't have Siddle to help him this time.

We have moved on from the first innings by now , haven't we ?

Pal Joey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Variability in available time, sudden possible help for seam bowlers and degree of availability of Moeen has made it hard to look ahead at possible scenarios for now

Aw c'mon KP_Fan... you can't say such a thing!
We're all waiting (on tenterhooks) for your roadmap. There's only 4 possible outcomes after all.

OK, I'll have a go.

1. Pope and Root stabilise the situation, not thru bazzaball but batting sensible enuf and frustrating the aussie attack. Maybe lose one or 2 of them b4 lunch but 70% chance Bairstow & Co. pick up the pace again and set target of 250-275 halfway thru last session. Aust then crumble losing 2-3 wickets and the match is finished off before lunch D5. Note, Ali won't bowl much (coz of sore finger) but he won't be needed much anyways.

2. Similar to above, but OZ only set 150-200 to chase. 6 or 7 down by lunch tmrw... but weather forces a draw. Mo can rest his finger a bit more but still doubts for T2... not enuf time 60% probability... 50% max.

3. England collapse, not thru bazbal but by pummeled by Oz bowling. All out around tea... or jus b4 with 75-80 to chase for Oz. Warner does IPL approach assisted by Carey (who is moved up the order) and all over around close of play D4. Ali's finger still sore but not much he culd've done anyways.

4. Similar to 3 abve... but bigger Target. Irrelevant anyways and Aus chase down tmrw morning before big storm hits. Mo gets to bowl but by this time it's too late for him to have any effect.

England declare just before tea, to have 4 overs at them before the interval, with a 300 lead.

Glad I didn't sit up waiting for the weather to clear : nice to get a bit of extra sleep midway through a match.

Not game to try and predict anything so detailed as PJ's possible outcomes above ; but suspect we might see a fair bit more ebb and flow before this one is settled (or wiped out by rain tomorrow).  Has been a fascinating battle so far and if the forecasts are accurate we have a full day today (which probably amounts to about 85 overs) plus whatever can be squeezed in between showers tomorrow. Given the pitch is still basically OK for batting it might be difficult to achieve a result unless one side or the other has a bit of a meltdown : but I'm not ruling anything out.

Will be interesting to see how Cummins approaches the early overs today : with the two aggressive openers out (but reportedly brighter weather);  will he look to press the attack ; or revert to the more defensive set up he's used for the whole game except  that brief period last night ? Might he fancy a chance to run through England and ensure an easy fourth innings chase ? After all , the bowlers had their tails up under the lights and made it look a totally different game. Different conditions today though...

If England are able to set a target of their choosing rather than getting bowled out ; what sort of time/runs equation would Stokes go for ? Might be tricky to judge because of the questions over how much play Tuesday will see. Any declaration decision of course guaranteed to generate a couple of extra pages on this thread

Well plenty of slips to start I see. Big change from first innings.

Not sure about Root trying to reverse ramp the first ball !

Afro wrote:England going to ramp up Bazball today. Look to score 300 in the first two sessions and declare on or around tea, if not out by then.

They'd rather lose, than draw because they haven't gone for the win, and the forecast tomorrow doesn't look great.

Might be declaring midway through the afternoon session at this rate

Bit of a quiet start from England, eh?

Weather looks better for tomorrow - at least in terms of dryness, there might be some dark cloud around - so a draw is definitely disappearing. Means England don't need to declare around tea, but looks like they want to anyway.

Yes, quiet stuff. Get that forward defensive working and slowly build the lead

Haven't checked who England's number five is, but hopefully it's Nasser Hussain, who can solidify things with a nice 31 (122).

Whilst breaking about five fingers! Then Cork and Gough can come in and whack a few boundaries

Oh wow, what a ball from Cummins to do for Pope. That was borderline unplayable.

Pope's second innings struggles continue (averaging about 16). And no wonder if he gets balls like that.

That was an unbelievable delivery!

Good lord that is a good ball. That's Waqar Younis type stuff. Cummins delivering precisely when Australia needed something after a 50 partnership had come up.

Oh, it goes so late. Even as an England fan I'm perversely enjoying the replays!

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:That was an unbelievable delivery!

Even in your current form. I reckon you would have struggled with that one, Olly! Perfect ball.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:That was an unbelievable delivery!

Even in your current form. I reckon you would have struggled with that one, Olly! Perfect ball.

It wasn't *that* good mate

Gillespie on TMS wrote:I think Joe Root is now the owner of the most talked about dot ball ever.

I really enjoy Dizzy as a commentator. He's very insightful, honest but also comes out with the odd really fun and thought provoking line like that.

Years and years ago on Sky I remember him being asked about a seamer being touted for England. The other pundits had reeled off some generic, not very insightful and honestly made up sounding tropes about seam bowlers. Line and length, repeatable action. We all know the ones. They got to Dizzy and he just said something along the lines of, "I haven't seen him bowl live yet mate". He simply wouldn't answer until he'd seen enough to actually comment.

king_carlos wrote:

Gillespie on TMS wrote:I think Joe Root is now the owner of the most talked about dot ball ever.

I really enjoy Dizzy as a commentator. He's very insightful, honest but also comes out with the odd really fun and thought provoking line like that.

Years and years ago on Sky I remember him being asked about a seamer being touted for England. The other pundits had reeled off some generic, not very insightful and honestly made up sounding tropes about seam bowlers. Line and length, repeatable action. We all know the ones. They got to Dizzy and he just said something along the lines of, "I haven't seen him bowl live yet mate". He simply wouldn't answer until he'd seen enough to actually comment.

Dizzy always came across as the reserved member of that great Aussie team, surrounded by big personalities he just went about his business. A shame that he's mostly remembered over here for his poor showings in 2005, he was when on song a great bowler. 259 @ 26 is greatness, were it not for McGrath and Warne hoovering up so many wickets he'd be in the 300 club easily.

There is a bit of the KP about Harry Brook in the way he is around the crease.

Thankfully his personality is different.

king_carlos wrote:

Gillespie on TMS wrote:I think Joe Root is now the owner of the most talked about dot ball ever.

I really enjoy Dizzy as a commentator. He's very insightful, honest but also comes out with the odd really fun and thought provoking line like that.

Years and years ago on Sky I remember him being asked about a seamer being touted for England. The other pundits had reeled off some generic, not very insightful and honestly made up sounding tropes about seam bowlers. Line and length, repeatable action. We all know the ones. They got to Dizzy and he just said something along the lines of, "I haven't seen him bowl live yet mate". He simply wouldn't answer until he'd seen enough to actually comment.

I remember that too, think it was on The Verdict hosted by Bob Willis. I was also really impressed then by Dizzy's honesty and his confidence to be honest amongst, as you suggest, all the usual bullsh1t being spouted.

One of the good guys for sure. Somewhat underrated as a player too in line with Soul's post.

Well, that's a big wicket. England were cruising, Lyon wasn't bowling particularly well, but he collects another stumping and it's Root.

Big innings for Stokes.

Gifting that chancer Lyon wickets is definitely the worst thing about Bazball so far

Yep, Dizzy was toe to toe with McGrath for a few years. Then realistically he was picked a couple of series to far with '05 the high profile culmination of that. Losing his delivery stride, shortening his runup, lengthening it again. He'd completely lost his action, was down on pace and couldn't control the ball anymore. It was quite sad seeing him struggle looking back.

Argghhhh. Root goes. Door open for Australia again. Need something from the skipper now.

Gilly definitely deserves being added to the more reserved members of that Aussie team too. Just pondering Soul's post further. Martyn and Hayden were calmer stalwarts too. Brett Lee was fiery but rarely involved in the verbal's.

Incredible test, morning of day 4 and still neither side can really pull ahead for very long. Door is open for Australia if they can grab one or two more in the half hour before lunch

Back on the Test at hand. Stokes is actually trying to bat by the looks of things, which is a welcome change. Feet moving well, getting inline, playing straight.

king_carlos wrote:Gilly definitely deserves being added to the more reserved members of that Aussie team too. Just pondering Soul's post further. Martyn and Hayden were calmer stalwarts too. Brett Lee was fiery but rarely involved in the verbal's.

I always think of Hayden as being one of the mouthier guys especially when in the slips for Warne. Lee was pretty much the perfect professional, gave it his all but never overstepped the mark, can't imagine Flintoff 'does that' for many other players.

Soul Requiem wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Gilly definitely deserves being added to the more reserved members of that Aussie team too. Just pondering Soul's post further. Martyn and Hayden were calmer stalwarts too. Brett Lee was fiery but rarely involved in the verbal's.

I always think of Hayden as being one of the mouthier guys especially when in the slips for Warne. Lee was pretty much the perfect professional, gave it his all but never overstepped the mark, can't imagine Flintoff 'does that' for many other players.

From my memory Haydos was no louder than any other slip fielder. Usually fairly calm next to Gilly whilst Punter, Langer, Warne, McGrath, etc gave everyone a mouthful.

The only thing I can possibly think of with Lee is that he did bowl a fair few beamers across his career. I'm in the camp they were completely accidental and can happen with really quick bowlers. Wood has bowled a few. Simon Jones managed it at times as well. But Lee did release a fair number and they were lethal.

Believe the morning session goes until 13:15 as an effort to make up for yesterday. Afternoon also extended by 15 minutes.

Australia have a review, but Stokes has a healthy bottom edge it seems. Or is their daylight? Down to one review, anyway. Taylor not happy.

Stokes batting like he does in the t20s atm...

Duty281 wrote:Believe the morning session goes until 13:15 as an effort to make up for yesterday. Afternoon also extended by 15 minutes.

Australia have a review, but Stokes has a healthy bottom edge it seems. Or is their daylight? Down to one review, anyway. Taylor not happy.

Apart from the fact he hit it, it hit him outside the line, and it was missing the stumps...that was a good review

king_carlos wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Gilly definitely deserves being added to the more reserved members of that Aussie team too. Just pondering Soul's post further. Martyn and Hayden were calmer stalwarts too. Brett Lee was fiery but rarely involved in the verbal's.

I always think of Hayden as being one of the mouthier guys especially when in the slips for Warne. Lee was pretty much the perfect professional, gave it his all but never overstepped the mark, can't imagine Flintoff 'does that' for many other players.

From my memory Haydos was no louder than any other slip fielder. Usually fairly calm next to Gilly whilst Punter, Langer, Warne, McGrath, etc gave everyone a mouthful.

The only thing I can possibly think of with Lee is that he did bowl a fair few beamers across his career. I'm in the camp they were completely accidental and can happen with really quick bowlers. Wood has bowled a few. Simon Jones managed it at times as well. But Lee did release a fair number and they were lethal.

With beamers I don't think you can hold it against someone because they bowl at 95mph instead of 80mph, there is no way he'd be doing anything like that on purpose. I'm not sure if it's the constant gum chewing that's giving me a false impression of Hayden.

DRS has it missing anyway but I'm honestly not convinced Stokes hit that.

Snicko/ultraedge did a lot of work to eliminate the 'phantom noise' that they used to pick up with the ball passing very close to the bat. It was around the time they actually tested the TV gimmicks (which they didn't before using them for DRS of course...) and realised hotspot didn't actually work. A lot of work was put into snicko to speed it up and remove that glitch. Basically, the ball passing very close to the bat would produce a small noise that looked very similar to the spike for an edge. I wonder if that might be the case there.

Stokes has reined it in a bit and Brooks getting bottled up a bit. It's on a knife edge