England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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50 up for Mo at an absolutely vital moment.   

A fortuitous way to get there with Cummins not picking it up. It frankly looked like he wasn't moving well chasing back for it either.

Starc back on which I think slows how key a period the Aussies know this is. He's looked their best bowler today.

Shouldn't discourage Joel Wilson from giving these speculative lbws. Let him keep putting his finger up tomorrow and have the Australian bats take the reviews ...

Or the flip side : England better not waste their own bowling referalls !

Broad retiring, so that's a massive hole to fill after this series. One last magic spell tomorrow?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

alfie wrote:Moeen has hit a few boundaries ; but the drawback to having him come in at seven is that he can't really run twos ...or even sharp singles. Has - along with the defensive fields - rather forced the others to try and just whack everything.

And now he's gone ...caught deep third man and it's eight down.  Going to be scratching to get that 400 now I'm afraid...

Highest ever run chase at The Oval is 263-9. We're 367 ahead. 400 shouldn't be needed.

Agree that 400 shouldn't be needed, but high run chases are becoming more common in the game and the old records aren't worth a lot.

Yes, Bazball has certainly increased the number of successful high run chases recently. Pity it's just not cricket, eh, old chap?

There were 26 successful 300+ chases in test cricket in the first 136 years of the game (1877-2012). There have been 10 successful run chases of 300+ in the last ten and a bit years*. That's what I was getting at.

'Bazball' England responsible for one of those 10*.

I didn't see that coming, he'd been the best bowler on either side this series.

GSC wrote:Broad retiring, so that's a massive hole to fill after this series. One last magic spell tomorrow?

Damn. I know he's been hovering around it for a while, he nearly retired after the last Ashes, but I really thought after this amazing series he's had that it would inspire him to go on for another 2/3 years.

Massive loss. This test really is the last time we'll see Broad and Anderson together.

Always felt a bit of sympathy for Broad because he has been overshadowed by Anderson, and in virtually any other era he would have been the headline maker. 602 wickets @ 27.66. Hopefully a few more wickets to come.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

king_carlos wrote:It's obviously a fantastic posotion but they ideally need to get up above 400 here IMO. This pitch is good for batting and England's bowlers looked tired at the end of the first innings.

Haven't the bowlers just rested for 7 of the last 8 days?
Dodgy weather forecast for next 2 days

They'd 'rested' for the best part of 5 days before the 1st innings and were clearly flagging towards the end though. It isn't a young unit and 3 of them have had injury issues recently. Plus they're likely to be without Mo.

I think there is a bit in this pitch having seen the final session. It was starting to take turn a bit more and the variable bounce seems to be getting more pronounced. Whereas on some English wickets recently that 'died' as the game went on the bounce just got slower and spin was easy to play due to the lack of bounce.

It's definitely not out of sight of a good batting unit though. Yet another good Test in this engrossing series.

Might be time to smack a few boundaries first

Eng lasted a day ie 80 overs and have set up an imposing total.
They batted well, kept going almost everyone.
Aus didn't bowl well, particularly with new ball.
Pitch a batting beauty and so Aus has some chance. Eng by far favorites but door not shut for Aus.
For them to stay in with a chance , their openers have to give a platform....atleast 50 runs and Warner should go on to get a BIG fifty. He is due and will have sense of occasion, a sign-off effort.

Why didn't Stokes declare at the fall of 9th wicket? This question would not be warranted had he not declared on D1,T1
Is this a mistake today or an admission of mistake made in T1

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

alfie wrote:Moeen has hit a few boundaries ; but the drawback to having him come in at seven is that he can't really run twos ...or even sharp singles. Has - along with the defensive fields - rather forced the others to try and just whack everything.

And now he's gone ...caught deep third man and it's eight down.  Going to be scratching to get that 400 now I'm afraid...

Highest ever run chase at The Oval is 263-9. We're 367 ahead. 400 shouldn't be needed.

Agree that 400 shouldn't be needed, but high run chases are becoming more common in the game and the old records aren't worth a lot.

Yes, Bazball has certainly increased the number of successful high run chases recently. Pity it's just not cricket, eh, old chap?

There were 26 successful 300+ chases in test cricket in the first 136 years of the game (1877-2012). There have been 10 successful run chases of 300+ in the last ten and a bit years*. That's what I was getting at.

'Bazball' England responsible for one of those 10*.

And what I was getting at, apart from the Oval stat, is that there have only be 10 successful run chases of 367 or more in the history of test cricket. Australia have only ever done it twice, and only once chased over the current lead of 377, and that was in 1948. And yet several people on here seem to think 377 may not be enough and are chewing their nails.

WTF why did Broad retire?

Don't think there's much chance of Stokes declaring on Broads last bat KPF. Regardless time shouldn't really be a factor (touch wood)

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

alfie wrote:Moeen has hit a few boundaries ; but the drawback to having him come in at seven is that he can't really run twos ...or even sharp singles. Has - along with the defensive fields - rather forced the others to try and just whack everything.

And now he's gone ...caught deep third man and it's eight down.  Going to be scratching to get that 400 now I'm afraid...

Highest ever run chase at The Oval is 263-9. We're 367 ahead. 400 shouldn't be needed.

Agree that 400 shouldn't be needed, but high run chases are becoming more common in the game and the old records aren't worth a lot.

Yes, Bazball has certainly increased the number of successful high run chases recently. Pity it's just not cricket, eh, old chap?

There were 26 successful 300+ chases in test cricket in the first 136 years of the game (1877-2012). There have been 10 successful run chases of 300+ in the last ten and a bit years*. That's what I was getting at.

'Bazball' England responsible for one of those 10*.

And what I was getting at, apart from the Oval stat, is that there have only be 10 successful run chases of 367 or more in the history of test cricket. Australia have only ever done it twice, and only once chased over the current lead of 377, and that was in 1948. And yet several people on here seem to think 377 may not be enough and are chewing their nails.

And for the majority of test cricket teams wouldn't even attempt to go for 377 or more. They'd just block it out for a couple of days. Hence why the statistics aren't worth as much, because in the modern era (last 15-20 years) with greater scoring rates teams actually attempt these chases.

What England have should be enough for the win. But Australia aren't out of it. If they bat for 130 overs they'll probably win.

Duty281 wrote:What England have should be enough for the win. But Australia aren't out of it. If they bat for 130 overs they'll probably win.

Yes, and if they get to 378 for 0, they'll win by 10 wickets.

I think England have enough by a reasonable margin. But theyre a little short of totally comfortable

I feel a bit more comfortable now that Broad's announced his retirement. Surely no way it'll end in defeat?

Duty281 wrote:I feel a bit more comfortable now that Broad's announced his retirement. Surely no way it'll end in defeat?

Agree, I actually think it will give the bowling attack a bit extra tomorrow

Also, I think its the perfect time for him to retire. Look at the schedule ahead, it's not exactly enticing is it

I'll feel more comfortable when Broad smashes 50 in the first 5 overs and then takes 5 wickets in the morning

VTR wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I feel a bit more comfortable now that Broad's announced his retirement. Surely no way it'll end in defeat?

Agree, I actually think it will give the bowling attack a bit extra tomorrow

Also, I think its the perfect time for him to retire. Look at the schedule ahead, it's not exactly enticing is it

True, he's never done well in India and next summer isn't very exciting. The next Ashes a long way off.

He can end on a proper high if he takes at least four wickets tomorrow/Monday. Starc is the series leader with 23 wickets, Broad just behind on 20.

With how well he'd bowled this series I thought Broad would go another summer even if he didn't tour abroad again. Fair enough if he wants to go out in the Ashes though. Most players don't get to choose when they go and Broad is doing so in a great series, after very good personal performances.

He will leave a big hole for England. It makes it even more important that they get as many summers as possible out of Woakes in English conditions. Robinson getting and staying fit to fulfil his talent would be fairly useful too.

Broad Retires.
Good player, well timed, a career gone very well
Didn't lose much on speed preserved his wicket taking ability...although lost his batting skills quite a bit after being hit by a bouncer.

What's Anderson waiting for ?
He should announce his too tomorrow morning  
Not much left for him, not much left in him either

A word for Zak Crawley as well. He took so much flack but has gone through a home Ashes averaging 53.33, scored 480 runs, made 2 fifties and 1 majestic ton. His role might not be an orthodox one and his game of course has flaws but he's done the job asked of him in this series.

Khawaja needs 56 to equal Crawley as highest run scorer in the series, 57 to top the chart.

Don't think Jimmy will go out on this series

In away series Anderson's ability to bowl dry is still vital. In a strange way I think he's a better option overseas than he is at home now.

Well 378 should be enough. Would be the biggest score to win at The Oval in Tests.

Rain tomorrow might actually help England as it might mean gaps in play to aid the bowling attack.

Rare for an Ashes series, or any summer of Tests in England, to feature an England batting line up in which all have justified their places. Just shows what backing players and freeing them from fear of failure can do.

A win over the next two days would give Broad a good send off. He'll go down as one of England's bowling greats and his early-career batting should not be forgotten, either.

With regards to the weather, both the BBC and Met Office agree it should definitely be raining by 17:00 tomorrow with no further chance of play after. They're going about a 50% chance that it'll be raining as early as 15:00.

Day Five still in the balance. Met Office saying a 50% chance of rain pretty much all the way through; BBC around 40-50% for the first few hours, then dropping to between 20-30% from 15:00.

Would be quite something if the Aussies got saved twice by weather! I'm pretty confident we'll see at least 90 overs (if needed) over the two days, based on that forecast. 90 overs should hopefully be enough for England.

With regards to Broad's retirement, I hope Robinson takes this as a chance to sort out his fitness. He can be the one that fills Broad's role as a senior leader of the attack alongside Anderson (while Anderson still remains), but that will only happen if he can manage a consistent run of games.

I was also thinking about Broad that he started his test career in a pre-DRS era (DRS starting in July 2008, I believe). Can't be many such players left now still active at test level. Anderson, of course, is one. Shakib Al Hasan another. Southee perhaps just squeezes inside the line.

sirfredperry wrote:Rare for an Ashes series, or any summer of Tests in England, to feature an England batting line up in which all have justified their places. Just shows what backing players and freeing them from fear of failure can do.

There have been frustrating moments without a doubt. More than occasionally. I've repeated it many times but the collapse on T2 D2 had me tearing hair our. With such a good foundation and 1 wicket down when Lyon hobbled off the most 'aggressive' thing to do by a mile was grind the Aussie attack down, make them bowl bulk overs.

Overall the approach has undeniably got more out of the limited batting resources though. Now that we've seen it function against a strong Aussie attack I'd remove the asterisk some still had over it due to flat pitches, dud Dukes balls, weakened opposition, etc.

Brook emerging as the best talent since Root I would consider slightly outside of the change in approach getting more out of the players. He no doubt suits the methods but is also the sort of batting talent England hadn't unearthed for a long while so should have found success anyway.

The likes of Crawley, Duckett, Bairstow and even Pope before injury have seen much improved returns though. That's what England need to do at the moment. After Root, Brook and Stokes (as he's batted this summer) our batting options are all flawed in some way. This approach has found a way of getting the most out of the flawed players who have bigger upsides.

Soul Requiem wrote:I didn't see that coming, he'd been the best bowler on either side this series.

Think that's sort of the issue though, he's a very emotionally driven bowler and without an Ashes series on the horizon this is probably the best time.
Was just thinking a couple of days ago that ideally they'd have told him they're not picking him for the next 12-18 months, before building up to go to Australia if he wanted. And then basically the other way round for Anderson; one more year and after that only if others are out.

Still not really hit home that today or tomorrow will be the last day Broad plays for England. He and Jimmy have been ever presents virtually, particularly notable given the long list of seamers England have missed for long periods over the last few years. Don't think we'll ever see a duo with longevity like those two again

King C - broadening your thoughts on getting the most out of the current batters, perhaps worth considering others who have changed their approach.

Possibly one of the most extreme changes was that of Glenn Turner - initially a classically correct but incredibly slow-scoring opener who transformed into one of the great attacking batsman.

Then there were the likes of Ken Barrington and Graham Gooch who started as dashers but became more defensive, nay rock solid, as their careers progressed.

Some may remember Conrad Hunte who curbed his attacking style to grind out runs as a Windies opener knowing the stroke makers were following him down the order.

Another urged and encouraged to play his natural game despite numerous failures early on in Test cricket was Mike Gatting. The despair of Bob Willis who had little time for him, Gatting found favour under David Gower and for a glorious period from 1985-87, which included two Ashes triumphs, Gatting was arguably the best Test batsman.

sirfredperry wrote:.

Another urged and encouraged to play his natural game despite numerous failures early on in Test cricket was Mike Gatting. The despair of Bob Willis who had little time for him, Gatting found favour under David Gower and for a glorious period from 1985-87, which included two Ashes triumphs, Gatting was arguably the best Test batsman.

You bring names from an era that invokes nostalgia
Gatting's purple patch you mentioned came around the time when I started following cricket  seriously as about a 12 year old....and I became a Gatting fan.
The start of his purple.patch was the indian series in 1984-85 where he got a 100 and a double hundred. The 200 came in Chennai which I saw live on TV in a humongous partnership with Fowler who also got a 200 and Eng beat India I Madras to seal a rare series win.
I then saw Gatting score a 180odd vs India in Eng next year 1986 in a series Eng badly lost in seaming conditions. Gatting was captain for that series  and right in the midst of his purple patch.
He along with Lamb were a ferocious attacking pair of batsmen, way ahead of their times...as was Robin Smith who followed them by a few years.
You would wonder why Gatting averaged only 35ish though inspite of his talent and extended run of 80 odd tests he got ?
Discipline I would say.
He enjoyed food, drinks good life sometimes scandalous (Bar Maid scandle ). Had he had the extreme discipline that Smith /Kohli types showed...he would have averaged 45ish.

Later in life I had the privilege of playing agaist Gatting in Houston club league in ~ 2001
He was in his 40s visiting US regularly for fun and me in my lates 20s working in America.
He was fiercely attacking way above the level of that league. He played for British expats and me for mixed nations clubs. Games were followed by drinks, barbecue and more drinks and Gatting loved all of that

So Broad's playing his last game for England. Very fine bowler. has had a touch of the magical about some of those spells, coming out of nowhere and hitting the opposition so hard before they realize what is happening... His batting regressed over the years, Boycott once reckoned he can be England's long-term number 7... But his bowling was up there or there about. And he's going out on a high, has been England's best bowler of the series for sure.
And unlike his acomplished and skillful opening partner, I found Broad to be very likable on field as well, with all those theatrics. Anderson though mellowed and matured over the last few years, used to be a proper thug on field. Broad was not the one to back off ever, but even his overt show of non-bowling agression had a touch of fun and entertainment about it. His pantomime act after that Bairstow dismissal was entertaining, and at the same time got under the Australian's skin.
Farewell, Stuart... Hope you can bring a touch of fun and solid insights into that commentary box...

Popped a Broad thread up - https://www.606v2.com/t71172-stuart-broad-retiring-from-cricket

Played myself yesterday so catching up on highlights and the news. Seems like a really good day from England with the bat, Crawley might have rode his luck but corr he plays some good shots doesn't he, and Root looked in imperious form (denied two nailed on centuries now by two absolute grubbers at OT and here, unfortunately for him). Nice knocks from Bairstow, Duckett and Stokes too.

Aussies looked a little bereft of ideas? Murphy is just quite poor really at this point of his career, and the seamers looked tired to me.

Don't think they're totally out of it, but going to require a heck of a chase. Hope the weather stays away and we can get a result in this one

The forecast appears to have worsened for today, the rain is likely to hit as early as 2/3, but tomorrow's looking better. To be fair I think the test has been quite fortunate with the weather so far - I can't recall so much dark cloud happening with no rain before!

I wonder if Broad's retirement has motivated the Aussies still further? I worry that one of them is going to deliver a big innings. Warner's been getting so many starts, but never kicking on. Labuschagne, despite his confusing first innings here, is coming off a century in the last test. Smith has only managed one century in the series, which for him is a drought. And wouldn't like to rule out Head or Marsh, or Khawaja batting for 8 hours.

Also, overshadowed by Broad's retirement (the selfish bast*rd!), it's Anderson's 41st birthday today. Hopefully some happy returns.

Been busy today so barely had time to digest the shock announcement of Broad's exit ... will comment later on that ; but for now , just hope he can go out on a high.

Weather OK ? Think England are clearly favourites with a lead pushing 380 ; but Australia aren't totally out of it unless the pitch starts playing tricks. Would be a record chase - but records are made to be broken. Think they will make England work anyway.

On with the show...

VTR wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I feel a bit more comfortable now that Broad's announced his retirement. Surely no way it'll end in defeat?

Agree, I actually think it will give the bowling attack a bit extra tomorrow

Also, I think its the perfect time for him to retire. Look at the schedule ahead, it's not exactly enticing is it

I think it'll ensure Broad gets first dibs on reviews.

Broad's last bat.

This is one area of his career where he'll perhaps be disappointed. After 41 tests his batting average was 29 (that was in 2011), but it's been in steady decline since and currently sits at 18.

alfie wrote:Julia's is quite correct about the previous best chase here. But there have been plenty of higher fourth innings scores that led to draws or defeats so that's not quite a guarantee of safety.

And this is only end of day three . Pitch might not be as worn as some - though it does look as though a few balls are starting to keep low.

You'd think it's enough of a lead. Crazy series though so who knows ?

Jules or even Julia taking on Alfie reminds me of the story concerning a young rookie quick trying to take on Viv Richards (although Alfie clearly is more polite and respectful).

The speedster beat Richards with one early on and had the temerity to say to the great man, ''It's red and round. You're meant to hit it.'' A couple of balls later Richards drove the quick over the rope into some unpopulated seats and said, ''You know what it looks like. Now go and fetch it!''

JDizzle wrote:Guildford will be pleased England survived to close just to give the Aussie openers less time to prepare at least!

Absolutely.

Additionally, at least 3 less overs for our tired bowlers, probably a man down, to send down today and a chance to increase the lead which in an oh so tight series may make all the difference.

Six for Broad!

Broady!

Last ball he faced was 6. Very Broad.

So 384 to win, or nominally 383 to win the series I suppose

Can't be many players who's last ball they faced in test cricket, hit it for six?!

Maybe should have taken the single...

But nice for Stuart's last shot to be a six

Now for the Main Game...

The last ball he faced in test cricket was a six!

384 to win. Not impossible, but England are strong favourites. Think Root could have a good part to play with the ball on this.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Can't be many players who's last ball they faced in test cricket, hit it for six?!

Might be the first! And this from Zaltz:

It's Stuart Broad's 55th six for England.

Only four players have hit more sixes for England in Tests: Ben Stokes, Kevin Pietersen, Andrew Flintoff and Ian Botham.

Not sure about Anderson turning down the single there; Broad the more likely to do some damage.

One last twist in one of the great test series? Tall order but Australia certainly have talent to come

Well the clouds have suddenly rolled in.

Worth noting with regards to fourth innings scores at the Oval - 400+ has been scored twice, in 1979 and 1947, in drawing efforts. England also managed 369 in a draw with India in 2007, and Australia were bowled out here for 348 in 2009 attempting a very high chase (they were doing alright until Punter got run out!).

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Can't be many players who's last ball they faced in test cricket, hit it for six?!

Broad is just the second player to hit his final delivery in Test cricket for six, after Wayne Daniel of the West Indies off Australia's Tom Hogan at Port-of-Spain in 1984 - as per Benedict Bermange.

Duty281 wrote:Well the clouds have suddenly rolled in.

Worth noting with regards to fourth innings scores at the Oval - 400+ has been scored twice, in 1979 and 1947, in drawing efforts. England also managed 369 in a draw with India in 2007, and Australia were bowled out here for 348 in 2009 attempting a very high chase (they were doing alright until Punter got run out!).

If I were a betting man my money would be on England as 380+ is still a heck of a lot and too many of the Australian batters seem out of touch but perhaps worth noting that Oval tracks have shown little signs of deterioration over the last couple of seasons. Maybe the odd one keeping low later on in a match although not many. Certainly little to aid the spinners with cracks in the wicket as rare as hens' teeth. Also, today is still only day 4.

Very few large second innings scores in Championship matches at the Oval in recent times. Surrey try to go big first dig, often achieve it and use that as the base from which to win. That's why I thought 283 in England's first innings was below par.