Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[ralphjohn69]

It's not logic. Most pot 4 teams are no worse than Rangers. If Rangers were the worst ever pot 4 team last year, what makes them any better now?

Because instead of playing another Pot 3 team they will be playing a Pot 4 team, who will probably be worse than a Pot 3 team so they have a better chance of getting 3rd, although it's obviously not guaranteed. You really don't help yourself when you post about football....

[JAS]

Yep it would be good to see as many though as possible...even Hibs!! :-p Any Villa fans about?

[JAS]

It's not logic. Most pot 4 teams are no worse than Rangers. If Rangers were the worst ever pot 4 team last year, what makes them any better now?

Like who? go on, show us a glimpse of your extensive knowledge of European Club football.

The problem Rangers had with the draw last year was that Napoli were in Pot 3 (worst possible draw they could have got from that Pot) and Liverpool from Pot 2 - even though they we're blowing hot and cold last season they blew hot against Rangers. I would never expect us to beat a Pot 1 Team a draw at home would be the absolute best to hope for.

I don't think it's wishful thinking to expect maybe 5 points and 3rd place from Pot 3 (Beat the pot 4 team at Ibrox, draw away and maybe a home draw against the Pot 2 team.

Ask Dortmund, Leipzig, Red Star, Braga, Porto, Benfica how easy it is to come to Ibrox & get a result

[super_realist]

It's not logic. Most pot 4 teams are no worse than Rangers. If Rangers were the worst ever pot 4 team last year, what makes them any better now?

Like who? go on, show us a glimpse of your extensive knowledge of European Club football.

The problem Rangers had with the draw last year was that Napoli were in Pot 3 (worst possible draw they could have got from that Pot) and Liverpool from Pot 2 - even though they we're blowing hot and cold last season they blew hot against Rangers. I would never expect us to beat a Pot 1 Team a draw at home would be the absolute best to hope for.

I don't think it's wishful thinking to expect maybe 5 points and 3rd place from Pot 3 (Beat the pot 4 team at Ibrox, draw away and maybe a home draw against the Pot 2 team.

Ask Dortmund, Leipzig, Red Star, Braga, Porto, Benfica how easy it is to come to Ibrox & get a result

The confirmed pot 4 teams this far are
Lens
Union Berlin. 
I don't see Rangers as being appreciably better than them. Furthermore it's projected that Newcastle are likely to be Pot 4.

By the way, my "extensive knowledge of European football" was right last year for both Celtic and Rangers, so give me some credit. I said they be terrible and would finish 4th, and despite your misguided optimism, they were terrible and did finish 4th.

Red Star and Braga? Real heavyweights

[JAS]

By the way, my "extensive knowledge of European football" was right last year for both Celtic and Rangers, so give me some credit. I said they be terrible and would finish 4th, and despite your misguided optimism, they were terrible and did finish 4th.

Red Star and Braga? Real heavyweights

Yep even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Red Star? Previous winners, obviously they've seen better days
Braga - might well be in Pot 4 if they win next week, nice to know you don't rate them that highly then? Considering Rangers have knocked them out of the EL in 2 of the past 4 seasons that would be a good draw with a possibility of going through in 3rd place right? I sense 2 different parts of your brain having a conflict of interest now :-p

[super_realist]

Ha ha, I knew you'd say that. Funny that based on your confirmation bias results from 2021 that you could get second, then it was third, then you were forced to face reality that 4th was the best you could do. We went through this rigmarole every week. 
If you're going to go back to when Red Star won the European Cup , then I could bring up Progress Niederkorn, Malmö or plenty other teams who have handed you your arse in European qualifying, and just as many who have destroyed Celtic. Celtic won the European Cup too, would you be worried about them?

Just be honest, Rangers are not looking good to improve on last year.

[JAS]

Yep it would be good to see as many though as possible...even Hibs!! :-p  Any Villa fans about?

…and just like that 5 become 4, no way back for the Hibees.

[JAS]

Ha ha, I knew you'd say that. Funny that based on your confirmation bias results from 2021 that you could get second, then it was third, then you were forced to face reality that 4th was the best you could do. We went through this rigmarole every week. 
If you're going to go back to when Red Star won the European Cup , then I could bring up Progress Niederkorn, Malmö or plenty other teams who have handed you your arse in European qualifying, and just as many who have destroyed Celtic. Celtic won the European Cup too, would you be worried about them?

Just be honest, Rangers are not looking good to improve on last year.

Lol I love how you conflate things together desperately trying to prove your point. The hard facts are since they got back into Europe they’ve worked themselves up from nowhere to 30th ranked so the balance of evidence would suggest that on average (based over a 5 year period) they accumulate an average of over 10k points a season, with the worst being last years paltry 4000 compared to the run the the EL final year of 19000. The fact is they’re good enough to get out the EL groups and I would say that’s probably about their level. I’d like to see them perform better in the CL of course I would, last year was an aberration, I would lay money on it not being that bad again but I could be wrong. They’ve also started their 3rd season in a row with a different manager so to still be able to compete in such a transitional phase is commendable. Biggest concern this season is that they stumble out of Europe before they really start to click. On the other hand they may not click and Beale will find himself in trouble come November.

[super_realist]

I agree they had a couple of good years in Europe, but you seem to ignore who has also knocked them out of European competitions and only focus on their good results. 
The year they got to Europa final they were blown away in Champions League qualifying by Malmö. You didn't want to mention that did you?

I agree their level is Europa, so why would anyone expect them to perform better in CL which is several steps above their level?

[JAS]

I agree they had a couple of good years in Europe, but you seem to ignore who has also knocked them out of European competitions and only focus on their good results. 
The year they got to Europa final they were blown away in Champions League qualifying by Malmö. You didn't want to mention that did you?

I agree their level is Europa, so why would anyone expect them to perform better in CL which is several steps above their level?

It wasn't 2 it was 3. Bayer Leverkusen, Slavia Prague & Eintracht Frankfurt...there does that make you feel better??

I think you'll find I quite CLEARLY referenced the Malmo defeat from 2 years ago and how gutting it was. To add to that I think that marked the beginning of the end for Gerrard - he had clearly wanted to strengthen to mount a challenge that year and the money he thought he needed just wasn't forthcoming because it wasn't (and cant be) there. The penny dropped that there's no ceiling on fans expectation but there most certainly IS a ceiling on how much can be invested to try and meet those expectations. THAT i believe was the point where Gerrard went from being 100% all in to being, I like it here but, when a better opportunity comes along I'm out

[navyblueshorts]

This is painful. That is clearly a separate "claim" than one about her guilt.

And "hesitantly" should be a major clue as to how strongly I hold that belief.

The point still stands, on what I have read up on and the evidence I have seen, I am not convinced of her guilt. And if I have only seen incomplete evidence then it is even more sensible to withhold making a conclusion on her guilt. I really don't see an alternative rational move?

[super_realist]

I agree they had a couple of good years in Europe, but you seem to ignore who has also knocked them out of European competitions and only focus on their good results. 
The year they got to Europa final they were blown away in Champions League qualifying by Malmö. You didn't want to mention that did you?

I agree their level is Europa, so why would anyone expect them to perform better in CL which is several steps above their level?

It wasn't 2 it was 3. Bayer Leverkusen, Slavia Prague & Eintracht Frankfurt...there does that make you feel better??

I think you'll find I quite CLEARLY referenced the Malmo defeat from 2 years ago and how gutting it was. To add to that I think that marked the beginning of the end for Gerrard - he had clearly wanted to strengthen to mount a challenge that year and the money he thought he needed just wasn't forthcoming because it wasn't (and cant be) there. The penny dropped that there's no ceiling on fans expectation but there most certainly IS a ceiling on how much can be invested to try and meet those expectations. THAT i believe was the point where Gerrard went from being 100% all in to being, I like it here but, when a better opportunity comes along I'm out

Gerrard, like any sensible person with ambition uses clubs like Celtic and Rangers as stepping stones early in their career.  
Both clubs have now adopted that business model to accommodate players ambitions, finally conceding where they are in the football pyramid. It's a tacit acceptance they are feeder clubs and now they behave like them. 

Whilst that business model helps keep a club solvent, the downside is that you are gambling you can keep refilling the hopper with replacement talent for those who leave but crucially it means you can't build a team and that spells out that they won't ever progress in the Champions League unless they change their model or suddenly have an injection of money and a turnaround in how attractive they are to better players than they are currently capable of attracting, which seems unlikely.

[McLaren]

This is painful. That is clearly a separate "claim" than one about her guilt.

And "hesitantly" should be a major clue as to how strongly I hold that belief.

The point still stands, on what I have read up on and the evidence I have seen, I am not convinced of her guilt. And if I have only seen incomplete evidence then it is even more sensible to withhold making a conclusion on her guilt. I really don't see an alternative rational move?

:tumbleweed:

So what rationale would you suggest?

[super_realist]

This is painful. That is clearly a separate "claim" than one about her guilt.

And "hesitantly" should be a major clue as to how strongly I hold that belief.

The point still stands, on what I have read up on and the evidence I have seen, I am not convinced of her guilt. And if I have only seen incomplete evidence then it is even more sensible to withhold making a conclusion on her guilt. I really don't see an alternative rational move?

So what rationale would you suggest?

I think you should just admit you got it wrong Mac because you were too lazy to do any research.

[navyblueshorts]

This is painful. That is clearly a separate "claim" than one about her guilt.

And "hesitantly" should be a major clue as to how strongly I hold that belief.

The point still stands, on what I have read up on and the evidence I have seen, I am not convinced of her guilt. And if I have only seen incomplete evidence then it is even more sensible to withhold making a conclusion on her guilt. I really don't see an alternative rational move?

So what rationale would you suggest?

I'm not sure I follow what you're asking.

What rationale did Letby have for the murders?; or
What other rational position are you asking me to suggest re. whether she is guilty or not?

[McLaren]

What other rational position are you asking me to suggest re. whether she is guilty or not?

This.

[McLaren]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

[super_realist]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

The evidence was  clearly considered sufficient to find her guilty. Why is it not convincing for you?
It's rather ironic that you reject evidence for a guilty verdict or rather deem it insufficient to convince you, but you accept the claims of an abuse victim without evidence and without question and also you think it's a good idea for the Police to believe such claims implicitly and without evidence.

A mountain of evidence isn't enough to convince you of the guilt of a defendant, but the accused in an abuse case is automatically guilty. Ha ha . Usual lack of consistency Mac.

[JuliusHMarx]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

Fortunately it doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not.

[McLaren]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

Fortunately it doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not.

I get that.

I guess I was just curious what has convinced others of her guilt?

[Duty281]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

Fortunately it doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not.

I get that.

I guess I was just curious what has convinced others of her guilt?

You were provided with this information, but chose not to read it.

[JuliusHMarx]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

Fortunately it doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not.

I get that.

I guess I was just curious what has convinced others of her guilt?

I'm curious - do you doubt every verdict of every trial where you weren't in court to hear all the evidence?

[super_realist]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

Fortunately it doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not.

I get that.

I guess I was just curious what has convinced others of her guilt?

What convinces you a sex abuse victim is telling the truth without evidence to support the claim?

[McLaren]

Unless I am mistaken, I think I am being accused by people on here of adopting an illogical position. My position being I am not currently convinced of her guilt.

Fortunately it doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not.

I get that.

I guess I was just curious what has convinced others of her guilt?

I'm curious - do you doubt every verdict of every trial where you weren't in court to hear all the evidence?

I don't doubt many verdicts but often I think the evidence is straightforward enough to come over in the media reporting. In this case it seems like quite a nuanced trail of circumstantial evidence which I don't think the reporting has been able to convey. I am not one of those people who will not accept circumstantial evidence but I still need to hear what it was and how it played out to become convinced of someone's guilt.

If I had not mentioned my own feelings on whether Letby was guilty or not and just asked for a very good explanation of the case would those on this forum have been more willing to engage on the topic? Really I am just curious to know the details of the trail. And what Duty gave me earlier did not contain the details, it was basically local news minute by minute reporting.

[super_realist]

But Mac, you have demonstrated that you don't require evidence to come to a conclusion. You've admitted it and actually stated that the police shouldn't either.

[McLaren]

What convinces you a sex abuse victim is telling the truth without evidence to support the claim?

Depends what you want to use the claim for. For me to believe them them the prior probability of sexual assualt happening is enough. And we must always remember that false claims are vanishingly rare. The chances are you would know the person as well and so you would have a good understanding of the person as well.

To remove somones liberty and send them to jail you would need more evidence than just knowing the person making the claim against them was being honest. You would need whatever it is that juries generally find convincing in those cases.

[McLaren]

But Mac, you have demonstrated that you don't require evidence to come to a conclusion. You've admitted it and actually stated that the police shouldn't either.

What?

[super_realist]

But Mac, you have demonstrated that you don't require evidence to come to a conclusion. You've admitted it and actually stated that the police shouldn't either.

What?

You stated unequivocally that an allegation of a sexual assault should be treated as a fact. 
You implore that the police treat the alleged victim as if her claim is 100% factual. 
Therefore the question is, why don't you require evidence to find an accused guilty of a sexual abuse case but you require more evidence for Letby when it has already been proven in court that the evidence more than met the legal threshold to deliver a full life term.

Your previous weak answer clearly introduces bias into a case before it's even been investigated.
Also, don't you also think that the chance of an innocent person who find themselves up in front of the beak for murder is just as "vanishingly small" as those accused of sexual assault?

[super_realist]

Sadiq Kh*nt doing his best to make life worse for Londoners.

[JAS]

Sadiq Kh*nt doing his best to make life worse for Londoners.

…by expanding the Johnson scheme?? Trouble is as Khan and Labour are finding out, there’s a lot more Nimby’s in the suburbs.

Definitely bit off more than he can chew with this one though as it covers Heathrow as well…so that’s at least another £25 onto airport parking, it also covers Twickenham and Wembley and I suppose other sporting venues which Khan will think “oh yeah what a money spinner” rather than “Poopie what a vote loser”

[super_realist]

Sadiq Kh*nt doing his best to make life worse for Londoners.

…by expanding the Johnson scheme?? Trouble is as Khan and Labour are finding out, there’s a lot more Nimby’s in the suburbs.

Definitely bit off more than he can chew with this one though as it covers Heathrow as well…so that’s at least another £25 onto airport parking, it also covers Twickenham and Wembley and I suppose other sporting venues which Khan will think “oh yeah what a money spinner” rather than “Poopie what a vote loser”

The air quality in the areas he has expanded it into is perfectly fine, yet he does nothing about the underground air quality which is something like 30x worse than the air outside. 

It's nothing more than money raising from this arse hole and clearly it's going to affect small businesses and the poorest in society most. 
Not surprisingly his V8 Range Rover cavalcade is excempt.

He's already been caught out lying that air quality kills 4000 a year and asked UCL to rewrite their report that the expanded ULEZ will do nothing to help air quality. Why do Londoners vote for this jumped up wanchor?

[JAS]

Speaking of Twickers I was there Friday night for the Springboks v what was allegedly the All blacks and their final warm up game before RWC, I’m not 100% sure what it was a case of the ABs being awful or the Boks being brilliant but I certainly never expected such a one sided encounter. Obviously it was a warm up game so things were being tried that might/might not work. Both teams were basically trying to run everything, had the Boks taken all their kickable penalties in 1st half they’d have been 21/24-0 up at half time rather than 14-0 from 2 converted tries. It was total dominance, scrums, line outs the lot. The Boks will take a LOT of stopping next month.

[super_realist]

Group of death that Springboks one, especially for the Scotch. 
They've had a great couple of years but they aren't getting past Sith Efrica or the Tatty Munchers

[JAS]

I Why do Londoners vote for this jumped up wanchor?

One could conclude, looking at his predecessor, that they’ve got form on making poor choices!!

Having said that, it’s how democracy works, don’t knock it too much.

[super_realist]

I Why do Londoners vote for this jumped up wanchor?

One could conclude, looking at his predecessor, that they’ve got form on making poor choices!!

Having said that, it’s how democracy works, don’t knock it too much.

Johnson was pretty terrible but I think on balance Khan has been much worse.

[I'm never wrong]

One employer has succesfully challenged the fines he got for the ULEZ by saying the signs were incorrect in not showing that drivers were entering a chargeable zone, like they do in the Congestion Charge Zone. Judge sided in his favour after given TfL time to produce the evidence, which they didn't. TfL said wrong evidence was produced and that the DfT approved signs way back. Judgement is a one off, and not applicable going forward to everyone.

[super_realist]

One employer has succesfully challenged the fines he got for the ULEZ by saying the signs were incorrect in not showing that drivers were entering a chargeable zone, like they do in the Congestion Charge Zone. Judge sided in his favour after given TfL time to produce the evidence, which they didn't. TfL said wrong evidence was produced and that the DfT approved signs way back. Judgement is a one off, and not applicable going forward to everyone.

Starmer will be rightfully furious that tinpot Hitler Khan is affecting Labour votes. His mad virtue signalling has already cost them Johnson's Uxbridge seat

[westisbest]

Yep it would be good to see as many though as possible...even Hibs!! :-p  Any Villa fans about?

Yes JAS, I’m a villa fan. Good result for us last week. Could have been more.
Job done going into tomorrows game.

Interesting to see how many Changes Emery makes.

We have the favourites tag now, after West Ham winning it.

Not going to be easy. Wouldn’t surprise me if we don’t win it.

Lost 2 key players at the start of the season, need to add a couple more before the window closes, if we are to go far.

[westisbest]

Springboks to win the world cu for me.

[McLaren]

Super

How come you have such strong feelings about the mayor of the city you don't live in or have any meaningful connection to?

[JAS]

Yep it would be good to see as many though as possible...even Hibs!! :-p  Any Villa fans about?

Yes JAS, I’m a villa fan. Good result for us last week. Could have been more.
Job done going into tomorrows game.

Interesting to see how many Changes Emery makes.

We have the favourites tag now, after West Ham winning it.

Not going to be easy. Wouldn’t surprise me if we don’t win it.

Lost 2 key players at the start of the season, need to add a couple more before the window closes, if we are to go far.

To be fair, Emery has an impressive European CV does he not?

[super_realist]

Super

How come you have such strong feelings about the mayor of the city you don't live in or have any meaningful connection to?

Because Mac, what happens in London will inevitably happen elsewhere. It might not bother a bus dwelling person such as yourself, but Edinburgh is, or already has instigated such a process and as such all services you rely on, such as plumbers, joiners, heating engineers, builders, deliveries, especially the self employed ones will be passing that cost on to you, me and everyone else. 
Are you really that myopic you can't see that? Take a look at the misery it's already causing in Glasgow, as if that place wasn't miserable enough.

Also, how do you know what connections I have with London?

[JAS]

Super

How come you have such strong feelings about the mayor of the city you don't live in or have any meaningful connection to?

It's a standard right wing activity to demonise any high profile left of centre politician. Rishi's little foot soldier :-p

[McLaren]

Super

I don't even know what the Khan/London issue is this week. From your responses I gather it must be some sort of "green" thing.

[McLaren]

Super

How come you have such strong feelings about the mayor of the city you don't live in or have any meaningful connection to?

It's a standard right wing activity to demonise any high profile left of centre politician. Rishi's little foot soldier :-p

This is probably the correct answer.

[JAS]

There you go Mac, 2 explanations...take your pick...based on evidence...obviously :-p

Ah you took your pick so quickly you beat me to it.

[super_realist]

Super

I don't even know what the Khan/London issue is this week. From your responses I gather it must be some sort of "green" thing.

Given you live in a vacuum I'm not surprised. 

Why don't you look at what "evidence" Khan is putting forward to justify ULEZ. Even someone who doesn't accept evidence to come to a conclusion should find it amusing.

Just because he's left wing, doesn't mean he isn't being a complete tool. He's basically done a Poll Tax in London.

[JuliusHMarx]

Some interesting reading here, but since it's the Guardian, it's obviously all left-wing nonsense, lacking any credible evidence - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/05/pollutionwatch-debunking-myths-low-emission-zones-health-air-pollution

[super_realist]

Some interesting reading here, but since it's the Guardian, it's obviously all left-wing nonsense, lacking any credible evidence - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/05/pollutionwatch-debunking-myths-low-emission-zones-health-air-pollution

Given that Khan has already been pulled up for trying to get a university paper to reword their reports on the efficacy of ULEZ to cover up it is useless in its aims , and he was caught lying about the number of people poor air affects fatally I'm not trusting crap in a rag like The Guardian.

It's  the EXPANSION that's the issue, not ULEZ's in general.

[McLaren]

Super

I don't even know what the Khan/London issue is this week. From your responses I gather it must be some sort of "green" thing.

Given you live in a vacuum I'm not surprised. 

Why don't you look at what "evidence" Khan is putting forward to justify ULEZ. Even someone who doesn't accept evidence to come to a conclusion should find it amusing.

Just because he's left wing, doesn't mean he isn't being a complete tool. He's basically done a Poll Tax in London.

What is ULEZ? and should I care?

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