Ulster 2023/2024 Season

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For the good, the bad and the ugly of Ulster rugby this season. Lets hope mostly good.

So if it's Murphy I wonder will he bring in his own team including Faloon. Bell doesn't have to be sacked, just demoted somewhat.

Murphy would be an excellent choice. Dan had to go, the right decision was made, the rest of the coaches should be on notice too and if they don’t improve when he leave they follow

Think he can bring his lad with him? We need a ten

Funnily enough talking of 10's.

Gareth Steenson has been mentioned as a possible new attack coach

Is that something you've heard, Geoff?

Don its only a rumour, but lets be honest they are going to be two a penny over next few weeks.

Brendan Fanning says Ulster have to shave £1million off their wage bill.
With McFarland out you can add whatever he was on, plus other coaches given the boot, to that £1 million.
That is a huge drop.

Looking at the 22/23 Annual Report some seriously silly inflated contracts were given out towards the end of 21/22
and we are paying the price now.

Who do you reckon is really overpaid? Easy to say most of them I'd assume. Some should be arrested for stealing a living.

Maybe - whisper it - instead of a misfiring Munster getting the next raft of box office friendlies, or even the U20 Six Nations, it could be given to us and we could benefit from a bit of extra cash.

Don Alfonso wrote:Maybe - whisper it - instead of a misfiring Munster getting the next raft of box office friendlies, or even the U20 Six Nations, it could be given to us and we could benefit from a bit of extra cash.

That sounds like the kind of thing you'd expect the IRFU to do in our situation... but then you remember we're in the North.

Is there actually some reason why we do get less help and financial aid up here? I don't like lazily assuming it's a south vs north bias. I know there are going to be some differences such as taxes,a nd possibly the funding we get from government versus the funding the others get from theirs etc.

Does U20 coach take up an entire year do you think? No chance Murphy could be our 'most of the time coach', but given extended leave, during which time Super or somebody else takes the reins? Could be a coach on a 'central contract' so to speak.

I see Burns to Munster has been reported, and Carberry is off. It kinda looks like Burns was packed out of necessity. Or was he released due to finances? Maybe he talked to Munster, tried using it as leverage for better contract, and Ulster said No (as we do). Perhaps he wasn't actually expecting to go, but now he is!

First part of the "Ulster Reset" underway, sorting out the coaching ticket, but what about the admin behind them? I doubt the coaches got to sign off on contracts (inflated or otherwise) without financial say so. You don't want the accountants running things completely, but they should have some input. Likewise for the new pitch. The IRFU must a big say in who leads (and adequately manages) that side of things, and until that is sorted it doesn't matter who we have as coaches, they will have their hands tied to a greater or lesser extent. And any extra revenues potentially squandered.
They can't let a good revolution go to waste ....

Bryn Cunningham, Head of Rugby Operations and Recruitment at Ulster Rugby, will also assume greater management responsibilities within the performance function during this time.

Assistant Coach, Dan Soper, will oversee operations next week ahead of Ulster facing Dragons at Kingspan Stadium in Round 11 of the BKT United Rugby Championship.

Basically Soper in charge until the 6Nations are over and then Murphy takes charge.

Being treated the same as Munster - no chance.

They have the biggest debt but are allowed to repay it back in peanuts.
That's plus being given virtually all the attractive representative matches to boost revenue.

I find it interesting that on the email from Ulster rugby I got and on their twitter page with the announcement of Dan leaving that they lead with from 'Ulster rugby and Irish rugby'

Seems a very deliberate bit of wording. Are they potentially trying to justify it by saying Irish rugby were involved or do you think IRFU are the ones who have really come in here and told them to get rid and clean house otherwise it will be Petrie's job and all on the line?

I think the IRFU has lost patience with the mis management at all levels.
I also don't think it is a coincidence it coincides with Humphreys appointment
Ulster will put up with tough love from DH they would never have from Nucifora

I Think this is important 'a senior IRFU source told the Irish Independent that the High Performance Unit in Lansdowne Road were working to try and find a solution to the sustained slump in mood and results in Ulster.
The strained financial situation in the province was seen as a key to whether or not McFarland would be kept on."
Also ties in with the from 'Ulster rugby and Irish rugby'

Basically DMcF was on thin Ice and Ospreys result sealed it. Finance side Murphy is already on an IRFU contract so untimely isnt costing anything extra. If as reported DMcF has stepped down, rather than being let go it would indicate an agreement over the remaining contact was reached, so RM free to end of season and paying off DMcF may have saved some funds.

Did read somewhere that Soper leading the attack was basically restriced to leading the opposition in training, trying to make them play like nex opponemts so starting 15 could practise aginst them. Not sure if thats true but Soper is going to be on trail to end of season as attack coach to see if he was happened or just not up to it. was a quality skills coach and if not up to attack, hope he would step back amd maybe work with Acamady too.

I notice that Willie Fallon has been Ulsters acamady forrwards coach, but more importantly has been the Under 20s defence coach under RM for the last number of years (including the U20 slams), I hope that RM promotes him up to Ulsters defence, as they have worked together successfully before.

Coaching wise theres hope again, but losing players with none incoming is a worry still.

Just out of curiosity, what's people's opinion of Bryn Cunningham?

Not sure I know enough o really have an opinion, but wasn't he an agent prior? And was he fairly instrumental in some of our signings in the past - like Muller-Pienaar-Payne era?



Moving on - can anyone explain why a Leinster ten (or any other squad player) would not come up the road?

Do you think it's simply that we do tend to look like we 'ruin' players with talent?

Or do you think it's more tribal or a pride thing? Better being a bit-part in a top team than a key member of a mediocre/struggling team?

Maybe I underestimate Flannery, or over-estimate the minster options but who would you have over Flannery/Doak out of:

Ross Byrne
Harry Byrne
Frawley
Prendergast

Is it possible that elements within Ulster and/or IRFU feel pretty confident Doak has a much higher ceiling but simply hasn't been given the opportunity and/or the best coaching?

I'd love to be proved wrong, but even ignoring the question of talent, I question his size for out-half.




On another note on the departure of Burns - I can't imagine this was a favourable choice for Billy - from what I've seen, he has really made Belfast his home - and I believe he has a VERY solid friendship with McCloskey. In that, the two couples holidayed together etc.

The reason Ulster are going into next year with Doak and Flannery are two fold:


My guess is the base salary bill for a Province will be £5 million next year, to which can be added Central Contracts and Private money
Next year it looks like Munster, Ulster and Connacht 1 each (O'Mahoney, Henderson, Aki)
Munster have private money, Ulster and Connacht have none

I've doubt any of those three contracts will be extended.
Munster (Crowley) and Connacht (Hansen) have a player with a good chance of getting one in 2025.
Ulster on the other hand have none - which will further squeeze the budget.

Perhaps Ulster Rugby is still tarnished with the basket case label, for that matter we should be getting a fresh batch of those labels printed because we seem to be back there again.
Perhaps there's a deeper understanding of what's wrong with Ulster and there's definitely something wrong. How come it always comes to the this point with Ulster but not the other provinces? How come things have to get to cluster**** scale before action is taken? In this instance how such mediocre coaches were appointed/promoted and how a head coach was allowed to remain well past his best before date. In my opinion Dan should have gone at least this time last year. Other clubs in pro sport talk about the 4 years itch where if a coach hasn't put anything in the trophy cabinet in a 4 year reign it's time to swap them out. If however there's consistent success you sign them up for more. In our case Dan and his buddies reached a ceiling that wasn't high enough for silverware yet Ulster Rugby extended the contracts. Why? What is wrong with Ulster Rugby?
Dan's downfall began as soon as Peel and Payne left which would suggest IMO that it was the sum of the parts and not Dan that got us out of the basket case. Without them, the return to that status was inevitable.

As for Doak, I think he thinks a lot more of himself than he should. I don't rate him as a 9 or a 10, he's a bench warmer at best and won't be getting near an Ireland shirt unless he raises the bar. Burns for al his faults is a far superior 10 and should have been retained at all costs. The ridiculous plastic pitch it seems is more important. If we're to replace Burns I'd love to see Frawley sent up the road but knowing Ulster we'd get the lesser Byrne.

I ask again, what the F is wrong with Ulster Rugby. Obviously it goes further up the line that just the coaching team. There's a culture that needs amended, a management infrastructure that needs demolishing. If you were trying to run a cash strapped company and wasted capital on a vanity project because you'd screwed the pooch on one fixture (we all know the icy fixture) would you not expect to be publicly eviscerated and sacked on the spot. In Japan you'd be expected to retain your family honour with a length of sharpened steel but here metaphorically would suffice.

So what is wrong with Ulster?

Cunningham is a curious one.

What are the dividing lines between Coach, Cunningham and CEO - we don't really know.
I suspect that he has a bigger involvement in player recruitment when the likes of Kiss and Doak were coach but less when
the likes of Gibbes and McFarland were in charge.
When McLoughlin was coach I have no doubt Humphreys called all the shots.

Administratively Cunningham runs the day to day but CEO makes the big calls

What I will say is he is Ulster to his core in a way McFarland and Petrie are not.
Also in all of the upheaval Petrie is totally missing in action (unlike a year ago when being on Twitter/X was his full time job!)
I reckon he is a dead man walking.

One thing I always remember, about Cunningham, was when he fronted up after the supporters anger over the Jackson/Olding affair.
He conducted that meeting with great tact and dignity, unlike the woman with him who seemed to think it was out of order for supporters to dare to question how the club was run.

He did not have to do it and as he he knew he was pushed under bus by that slimy toad Logan, who should have been there but didn't have the guts.
Always had a soft spot for Cunningham for that reason

Pete330v2 wrote:
As for Doak, I think he thinks a lot more of himself than he should. I don't rate him as a 9 or a 10, he's a bench warmer at best and won't be getting near an Ireland shirt unless he raises the bar. Burns for al his faults is a far superior 10 and should have been retained at all costs. The ridiculous plastic pitch it seems is more important. If we're to replace Burns I'd love to see Frawley sent up the road but knowing Ulster we'd get the lesser Byrne.

The thing is we are getting nobody
Why is Burns going rather than Doak four reasons:

- Doak can play 9 as well as 10
- Doak is by far the better kicker
- Doak has a contract till 2026
- Daok is 7 years younger

What Ulster need is actually pretty sensible

A quality CEO
A quality Coach

From those two building blocks we can progress.

In both areas, during the modern era we have nearly always made poor appointments

Start with a coach who is good working with upcoming players and a local businessperson who loves rugby and is a good CEO.
It really is very simple.

See POM and CM are moving off Central contracts to Munster contracts but are having them topped up by the IRFU, so only pay a portion of them, like semi central contracts, like IRFU did for Zebos contract to move him over.

Wonder if Ulster could ask for some of its highest earners to be part paid by IRFU to free up some, funds? Certainly Stockdale when he came of a central contract should the IRFU not been topping up his Ulster contract, or at least retrospectively do that now?

POM and Murray are considered worth keeping in Ireland for one more year as a benefit to the Ireland set up.

Stockdale isn't

Jackman seems to be suggesting Payne could get the job

Also reckons 6 or 7 to be let go

To which you can add possible retirements of Marshall and O'Connor

Thinking about it 6 or 7 sounds about right

O'Sullivan, Jones, Shanahan, Burns, Addison, French
Maybe Marcus Rea who has been vocal about what is going on

geoff999rugby wrote:POM and Murray are considered worth keeping in Ireland for one more  year as a benefit to the Ireland set up.

Stockdale isn't

But not on central contracts.
Munster contracts only.

Apologies - IRFU "top ups". FFS.

Don Alfonso wrote:Apologies - IRFU "top ups". FFS.

Yep basically Munster being subsidies by the IRFU on salaries as well as Stadium now

geoff999rugby wrote:POM and Murray are considered worth keeping in Ireland for one more  year as a benefit to the Ireland set up.

Stockdale isn't

Stockdale still makes the Ireland Squads, also they gave Zebo a top up contact to return from France he has had less Irish involvment that Stockdale in that time. Add that Stuart McCloskey has started more games for Ireland over the last 2 seasons than Connor Murray, maybe IRFU should be topping up his wages?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Apologies - IRFU "top ups". FFS.

Yep basically Munster being subsidies by the IRFU on salaries as well as Stadium now  

On the URC podcast they mentioned Munster are being impacted by budget cuts as well. Ferris tends to be in the know on these things so probably something in that.

Going to be tough if Ulster have to drop 1 million of the wage cap next year. Bound to have a impact on how they place in the league next year.

On a side note anyone think the reduced games in the league are impacting teams turnovers by any significant values? I'm guessing season tickets by in large have stayed the same even with the reduced amount of games I'm guessing.

They are but the cuts are no so severe

Ulster budget £5 million + 1 CC

Munster budget £5 million + 1 CC (Beirne) + 2 top ups + Private money

Next year Ulster will have no Central Contracts
Munster will have 2 (Beirne, Crowley)

Plus the extra Munster income from Representative matches

Murray Kinsella on the 42.ie has mentioned Ewers return to the premiership in the summer. There's no smoke without fire eh?

I've seen Payne's name popping up all over regarding the newly available opportunity at Ulster but I'd be very surprised. He's only just started a new role as defence coach at Scarlets and rumours of Leinster sniffing around him are rife. Despite that who knows, perhaps he craves a return to Belfast and the familiarity that would come with it. I just think financially it would be too big a hit. McNamara is another name but I just ignore any reference to a man who's coaching one of the most exciting backlines on the planet at the minute. Another one who'd have to be convinced and then bought out of a contract doesn't seem likely. Murphy is definitely the best fit both personally and financially.

Isn't it possible these guys have clauses in their contracts to get out if offered a head coach position somewhere? I don't know how likely these kind of clauses are, but you would imagine they'd be fairly common for people looking to climb ladders.

Otherwise, you limit yourself to which clubs are looking for a head coach the very year your contract ends?

What is normal for these things? Buy outs? Or get out clauses?

Which of our previous coaches have we had to buy out, or have they all just happened to be available?

I would absolutely love Payne - like I've said before, financially, the Ulster crowd (with a wide range of interest/knowledge) will be much more easily excitable by a known name.

If season ticket sales are as vital as they say, I don't think we will see much difference from a coach whose name is unfamiliar.

Even Murphy, whilst his pedigree on paper is very prudent, we all know that probably large section of regular ulster fans will not have heard his name. That will lead to a 'wait and see' response.

Then you have 2024/25 as the 'wait and see' season, with season tickets only recovering for the 2025/26 season (if we bounce back).

Think it depends on how this season finishes. A couple of good games might be interpreted as the start of a bounce back, and get a bit of excitement going. If McCann has another couple of great games, a few zippy old-style Baloucoune tries, some gnarly Sheridan/Wilson/Izzy performances, I think heads will lift significantly - a bit of excitement and promise would be enough to do it after the season we've had.

From what I've seen/read/heard, Payne was a big influence on the younger Ulster players, and they really respected him. And he had a lot of time for them. Despite being a defence coach, he helped them with all sorts. While he and Peel were there, Baloucoune, Lowry and Hume all got their first caps, and Doak looked to the manor born.

I don't know that such clauses would be that common. I mean would you want your top class attack coach to be capable of just jumping ship at any given moment. I've no clue mind you so they could be one of the first clauses printed on a contract.
Jared would be welcomed with open arms at Ulster by both players and fans but would he be up to the job? He did a fantastic job under Dan, alongside Peel and Soper etc. However, that coaching ticket was a recipe that worked, a change in the ingredients ruined the recipe. His effect was markedly reduced at Clermont and there's been just as much success at Scarlets. Have those gigs been the true indicator of Jared's true coaching worth or have they just not worked out for him due to (back to the analogy) him being the wrong ingredient for those particular recipes?
It seems that Ulster Rugby will be working with and being scrutinised more closely by the IRFU on this one so that nobody screws the pooch again. That may suggest a little more IRFU hands on approach which may not be a bad thing. As I've said before there's a toxic element somewhere in Ulster Rugby. Why do things always have to end up like an episode of eastenders? It's been happening over multiple coaching tenures and yet here we are again, and acrimonious divorce yet again. It doesn't happen anywhere else so there's something wrong here. Perhaps with Humps joining the dark side that will garner a little more scrutiny to weed out what's wrong.

I wonder do we at some point have to question the Ulster attitude/mentality.
Is it possible there is something inherent to the people of Ulster that makes us hard to coach?

You could well be right Pete - I'm not convinced that Payne is up to the job.

But then again, I do sometimes wonder if coaches really do possess this mythical 'special ingredient' that works anywhere.

Look at how many coaches Leinster have had - and yet they maintain fairly constant.

Do you think a Leinster coaching setup could come up the road and suddenly make Ulster perform better? I'm not sure it's that simple.

For me, it's a broader culture thing, combined with the development from younger years too.

I'm not convinced a coaching team can just magically change a culture and/or mindset.

I wonder if you talked to any of the greats from Ulster and got their real/true/honest opinion under promise of secrecy - might they actually slate the attitude of the other Ulster players?
I'd love to get the honest assessment of somebody like Rory.

Look at Ewers, heading back to premiership apparently. I can't imagine he's going to be telling his mates that Ulster were great.

We'll never know, because the people involved in this sport are much too polite and honourable to throw sh!t.

I think a lot of it is chance, quite honestly. Impossible to predict, and consistently buffeted by outside factors.

It's worth remembering last time the IRFU got "hands on", we ended up with Les Kiss.

Don Alfonso wrote:I think a lot of it is chance, quite honestly. Impossible to predict, and consistently buffeted by outside factors.

It's worth remembering last time the IRFU got "hands on", we ended up with Les Kiss.

Another Eastenders ending to another coaching ticket at that time. Soon enough we're going to get the famous drumbeat every time the suits decide it's time to hit the eject button on a coach.
Kiss was an unmitigated disaster, he simply didn't work out whether it was chance or other factors. Along with Kidney he didn't do a bad job at L.Irish.

Speaking of Kidney, he's not up to much these days is he. Oh please god don't give us Kidney, we need saved not erased.

Pete330v2 wrote: Murray Kinsella on the 42.ie has mentioned Ewers return to the premiership in the summer. There's no smoke without fire eh?.

Ewers leaving is a strong rumour along with Marshall and O'Connor of those with contracts ending in 2025

Pete330v2 wrote: I've seen Payne's name popping up all over regarding the newly available opportunity at Ulster but I'd be very surprised. He's only just started a new role as defence coach at Scarlets and rumours of Leinster sniffing around him are rife. Despite that who knows, perhaps he craves a return to Belfast and the familiarity that would come with it.

.

Payne doesn't crave Belfast but he does crave a Head Coach position.

There is nothing inherent in Ulster that makes them hard to coach but there are two huge issues that need addressing.

- Stop appointing sub standard people across the board in senior position.
- When players enter the academy stop molly coddling them, too many start thinking they are entitled and stop working to improve

Petrie doing a 30 min Q and A before the Dragons game for some season ticket holders to be chosen by balot. That ought to be a quiet affair

neilthom7 wrote:Petrie doing a 30 min Q and A before the Dragons game for some season ticket holders to be chosen by balot.  That ought to be a quiet affair

Will he actually give answers? Or will it be waffle?

carpet baboon wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Petrie doing a 30 min Q and A before the Dragons game for some season ticket holders to be chosen by balot.  That ought to be a quiet affair

Will he actually give answers? Or will it be waffle?

The fact it is only 30 mins long would suggest there won't be many answers.

Rugby Pass saying Burns is a done deal

Stuart McCloskey in talks with Bayonne is doing the rounds in france

carpet baboon wrote:Stuart McCloskey in talks with Bayonne is doing the rounds in france

Can we start allowing colourful language on here because I need to use some. Fuuuuuuuuu.......ck

If I was an impartial voice in McCloskeys' ear, I'd say he should.

Remember how we were pretty certain Cooney would move on an make proper money, and were fairly surprised we re-signed him. Perhaps we spent too much to keep him. And now others expect the same treatment to be retained and we just don't have the money.

carpet baboon wrote:Stuart McCloskey in talks with Bayonne is doing the rounds in france

False Bayonne are interested in him, he is not, currently talking to them.
Having said that I would not blame him

carpet baboon wrote:Stuart McCloskey in talks with Bayonne is doing the rounds in france

Would be a real shame if he moved out to France, but to be honest who could blame him, or Hendo. It is a short career and in my view players are entitled to try to maximise their earnings. Henderson has got to wonder about how much more time he will get in internationals with the emergence of McCarthy and some of the other young lads coming through, and with Ulster being a sh*tshow why stay? As for McCloskey, just when he seems to be getting Farrells confidence, it would be a shame to rule himself out of international contention. But will those opportunities remain if playing in a team that appears not to have any coherent plan?

Having shipped out of Norn Iron just over forty years ago maybe I'm biased, but things have changed hugely and maybe the 2 guys will show more loyalty than I did. For Ulsters sake I hope so, but also hope that it doesn't disguise the parlous state the organisation is in.

geoff999rugby wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Stuart McCloskey in talks with Bayonne is doing the rounds in france

False Bayonne are interested in him, he is not, currently talking to them.
Having said that I would not blame him

I've only just read the offending article, it does only say they are targeting him.

It's a lovely part of France, if I was him I'd be off but hopefully he's not going to consider that obviously.

Believe McCloskeys contract is up in the summer of 2024.

No need to worry, I'm sure the IRFU will offer to pay a sizeable amount for the renewal after all he is younger and played more times for Ireland over the last 2 years than Conor Murray. May even he a good thing and free up some wages and Ulster end up paying less for him that this season with the IRFU picking up the rest.

However I just see it happening for Ulster.