Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[mountain man]

Seeing as thread title is Eng getting 4 wins well the odds gone way up as I've just seen TMO in round 3 for Scotland England is the one and only Marius Jonker. Deep joy.

[No 7&1/2]

Not sure that impacts us much tbf. More so that Scotland have now lost Crosbie and R Gray for the tournament. They have a class 1st team but they can't afford to lose people as much as some others, us included.

[mountain man]

Well my comment was made in jest although more than a grain of truth in it.

[Mr Bounce]

I wonder if Jonker actively puts himself forward for England games? He seems to like TMOing them...

[Geordie]

I hear Sam Simmonds played most of The Montpellier v La Rochelle game at 12 and was outstanding.....

Just saying.....

[No 7&1/2]

Anyone know the England u19 squad?searched and can't see anything.

[king_carlos]

Anyone know the England u19 squad?searched and can't see anything.

I don't think it's being picked for a while?

There's going to be U19 matches against France and Italy in March and April is all I've heard. U20s staff coaching it again, same as the U19 matches last year. Basically just a way of them getting a better look at guys they rate who haven't developed quickly enough to straight from U18 to the U20s. It's a decent idea given the glaring flaws in English rugby pyramid. Though arguably in part an admittance that the Championship is a dumpster fire and that they should've set up a Prem A-league to be something more similar to Espoirs in France. A strong second division and an A-league with age limits would give you a place to get players appropriate game time depending on their physical development.

The NCA actually do a decent job with the nat leagues, academy grads often go on loan there to get game time. There is value to that, but generally at just below the standard you ideally want these guys playing at for long. Tigers use Leicester Lions for instance. It's a really good way to keep the 19-year-olds playing some rugby, but the bright talents more often than not are too far ahead athletically to get challenged there for long. However, the Championship is such a mixed bag now in terms of standards that it isn't the greatest nursery to then step into. Due to being shafted and cut adrift by the P-share clubs not giving the slightest f**k about anything but themselves, then defunding by the RFU, it is now a disastrous hodgepodge ranging from 'close to fully professional', to 'close to fully amateur'. That isn't ideal in terms of preparation for many of the teams these guys could play in, but also the opposition for many teams you'll play against.

[No 7&1/2]

Ta. Just seen there's one on in Donny and wondered if there were any names I knew.

[king_carlos]

They were fun games last year. They were uncapped, so big squads picked and all players given game time. I heard rumours that some clubs opted not to release certain players just after losing them for the U20s. So the squads had a slightly odd look to them in places, a lot of changes between fixtures.

I'm not sure it's even got a strict U19 cut off. For instance, I think Ireland were picking an Ireland U19/U20 team with a mix of U19s who had been in U20s and U20s players who hadn't quite cut it with the U20s. Which I have no problem with in these circumstances I'd hasten to add. These are friendlies that even saw 30-man squads, full team changes at half time, referred to as "pathway fixtures", with nowt on the line, purely for player development. I've no issue with coaches of varying sides working with each other a bit to get the best blend for all involved. It does sum up that these are pretty ad hoc affairs though.

As said in my many depressed rants about the state of English rugby's structure, I think a bright spot is the academies. They were invested in really well, the coaching there is excellent and they produce talent at U18s. Which then stalls too often in the broken mess above it. Things such as these U19 fixtures to bridge the gap between U18s and U20s, or the "tight five camps" for talented athletes in the big boy positions should be additions to players getting regular game time at the necessary standards. I don't think the system does that anywhere near as well as it should though.

[No 7&1/2]

Beeb:

'England are "hopeful" vice-captain Ellis Genge will be fit to face Wales on Saturday, says attack coach Richard Wigglesworth.

The 28-year-old was a late withdrawal from England's opening Six Nations victory over Italy last weekend.

The prop was originally named in the matchday squad, but was forced out due to a foot injury.

"Ellis trained on [Tuesday] in parts and he has got to get through Thursday," Wigglesworth told BBC Sport.

Genge had been touch and go with a hamstring injury before the tournament, which he claimed to recover from 'like Wolverine'.

Wigglesworth also confirmed Marcus Smith's calf injury will set him "further back in the tournament" after the fly-half missed the opener in Rome and was left out of the squad preparing to face Wales.

However, centre Ollie Lawrence could "potentially" come into camp at the end of this week, but will not be involved against Wales.

Second row George Martin is receiving treatment for his knee injury and could also be back to face Scotland on 24 February.

George Ford wants England to show attacking intent against Wales
'Discipline has been incredibly important'
International referee Luke Pearce was in the England camp this week to discuss current "trends" that officials are looking for at the moment.

South Africa confirmed on Tuesday that recently retired international referee Jaco Peyper will join their coaching side as national laws adviser.

"We are lucky that we get the referees a lot and it is definitely something that Steve [Borthwick] has brought to the programme," Wigglesworth told the Rugby Union Daily podcast.

"Discipline has been incredibly important to Steve as we need to know what to do better, so we have referees in camp a lot.

"Not to be there to referee but to review decisions."'


Some injury news finally.

[mountain man]

England have always had refs into camp to advise over the years which always makes me wonder why players still tackle too high and risk getting carded.

Genge be a big plus if he's fit and ready to play, even if off bench. England really need Lawrence to be fit.

[Mr Bounce]

As last week, team will be announced at 2pm on Thursday.

Other than a fit again Genge, do we expect Borthwick to change anything?

[mountain man]

Expect no but hope yes.
I would like to see starting backrow of Roots 6 Earl 7 and C-CS 8. Pace, power which will be needed against likes of Reffell and Wainwright.
I'd also play Freeman at 13, get him onto ball as much as possible and he's a lump which could be needed if North at 13 or maybe Grady.
Feyi-Waboso starts in place of Daly. Again, pace power and the added ingredient of playing Wales.

[Mr Bounce]

Expect no but hope yes.
I would like to see starting backrow of Roots 6 Earl 7 and C-CS 8. Pace, power which will be needed against likes of Reffell and Wainwright.
I'd also play Freeman at 13, get him onto ball as much as possible and he's a lump which could be needed if North at 13 or maybe Grady.
Feyi-Waboso starts in place of Daly. Again, pace power and the added ingredient of playing Wales.

I can also see Wales targeting Ford and Dingwall as Italy did. That's a small channel for them to run over. For all his tenacity, Ford does not stop big runners in their tracks. If there's a hint of success Wales will go through there all day.

I agree with your back row. CCS is an absolute unit with pace and was hitting tackles HARD. Would love to see if he has the fitness to do that all game. And yes to Daly out.

[king_carlos]

I really rate CCS but I'd keep him on the bench for now. His best performances for Quins have been there. As a starter he's generally been subbed fairly early in the second half. I'd prefer to use him for less minutes and ask him to carry a lot in that time. Rather than start him but see a likely fall off in work rate in those areas he's strong because he's having to do a lot more of the stuff that others can do better than him currently.

Pairing Dingwall and Freeman also has the very significant issue of lacking a distributor, kicking option or a proper crash ball runner. Freeman is a big guy and very good when he gets on an outside arc, but he's not a centre that's going to make yards in traffic like Danty, Aki or Tuipulotu can. I think for Dingwall to work at 12 from the current squad options you do need a 13 with some sort of passing and kicking game. I'm not Slade's biggest fan but he's miles ahead of Freeman in both regards. Looking at how prominent that stuff is for Chiefs, then how Slade is OK there for England is a good illustration of the step up. Neither Dingwall or Freeman have those skills at Prem level. I'd expect them to look like a centre partnership without hands against an international defence.

Without some sort of skill set in there the halfbacks would just be swamped so easily by any well drilled defence. The FH especially. If Lawrence or Manu were available it might be different. You can then think about using a crash ball runner to get over the gain line on early phase play. That opens up playing off 9 as well as 10. Which can negate needing some sort of distributing and kicking option wider to take pressure off 10 when required. Injuries mean there just isn't that stronger carrier in the midfield though.

With a centre partnership that can't be used for crash ball or to shift the focus from the halfbacks I'd predict that we'd end up playing exclusively off 10, but Ford or Smith would have to play far too deep to avoid being swamped. Which would make it insanely easy for an smart defence to just spread the field, slow their line speed, not attack rucks and focus on high tackle percentage. No need to take risks with line speed or potentially giving away breakdown pens if the opposition have one focal point who's having to play a few yards deeper than they want to.

[Geordie]

I think Dingwall will have been on tackle practice this week. 5 missed out of 9 is not a great stat.

[mountain man]

I  think Dingwall will have been on tackle practice this week. 5 missed out of 9 is not a great stat.

Yep, of all the new caps his was by a way the worst performance. He got targeted as did Ford and can see Wales doing same. Hence such a shame Lawrence out although be harsh to be dropped after 1 cap but Int rugby is hard.

[formerly known as Sam]

I  think Dingwall will have been on tackle practice this week. 5 missed out of 9 is not a great stat.

I think it was 9 tackles made and 5 missed. Two of those missed will have been for the final try.

[No 7&1/2]

Anyone got a link for the stats?

[No 7&1/2]

Looks like Lynagh is fed up of waiting too and is off to Italy. Long injury lay off may have focused his mind that it's not worth waiting around particularly after seeing Mercer ignored for so long. I think he's better than a lot of guys we've put up recently and it's another loss.

[formerly known as Sam]

Looks like Lynagh is fed up of waiting too and is off to Italy. Long injury lay off may have focused his mind that it's not worth waiting around particularly after seeing Mercer ignored for so long. I think he's better than a lot of guys we've put up recently and it's another loss.

He was great a couple of years ago. Last season a write off and this season he's not been back to his best. His little injury and dropping to the bench for Jan won't have helped either.

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah true enough. At least we have Daly.

[No 7&1/2]

Wales team is out.


Beeb:

George North will return for Wales as Warren Gatland makes seven changes to his team to face England on Saturday.

Fit-again centre North makes his 50th Six Nations appearance.

Ioan Lloyd and Tomos Williams, who helped spark the comeback against Scotland, are rewarded with starts.

Gatland has also changed his entire starting front-row with Gareth Thomas, Elliot Dee and Keiron Assiratti all selected as well flanker Alex Mann for his first Test start.
Wales team to face England: Winnett; Dyer, North, Tompkins, Adams; Lloyd, Williams; Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachowski, Griffin, Rowlands, Basham, Hardy, Evans, Grady.

[king_carlos]

Looks like Lynagh is fed up of waiting too and is off to Italy. Long injury lay off may have focused his mind that it's not worth waiting around particularly after seeing Mercer ignored for so long. I think he's better than a lot of guys we've put up recently and it's another loss.

He was great a couple of years ago. Last season a write off and this season he's not been back to his best. His little injury and dropping to the bench for Jan won't have helped either.

I'd expect Murley from Quins alone to be significantly closer to a callup as well.

Odogwu was the great loss to English rugby who apparently should have started the entire lockdown Six Nations, was expected to tear it up with Italy and make the coaches who didn't pick him look silly. Then he looked average at best in the RWC warmups and rode the bench for the RWC without doing much.

The nature of a strong U18 system in a country with lots migration is that players will be dual qualified and some will play international rugby elsewhere.

[formerly known as Sam]

Yeah true enough. At least we have Daly.

Hopefully not for much longer.

[No 7&1/2]

Looks like Lynagh is fed up of waiting too and is off to Italy. Long injury lay off may have focused his mind that it's not worth waiting around particularly after seeing Mercer ignored for so long. I think he's better than a lot of guys we've put up recently and it's another loss.

He was great a couple of years ago. Last season a write off and this season he's not been back to his best. His little injury and dropping to the bench for Jan won't have helped either.

I'd expect Murley from Quins alone to be significantly closer to a callup as well.

Odogwu was the great loss to English rugby who apparently should have started the entire lockdown Six Nations, was expected to tear it up with Italy and make the coaches who didn't pick him look silly. Then he looked average at best in the RWC warmups and rode the bench for the RWC without doing much.

The nature of a strong U18 system in a country with lots migration is that players will be dual qualified and some will play international rugby elsewhere.

The clamour for Odogwu was more when he moved to 13. Once Wasps got their players back he was pushed back to the wing, that clamour died. Not sure where he's been picked for Italy?

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah true enough. At least we have Daly.

Hopefully not for much longer.

Promises. Thought we'd have seen the last of him after the WC final. He's like a bad penny.

[carpet baboon]

You want a big crash ball 12???? Hmmm who in the squad who is fit could do that I wonder???

[Heaf]

I wonder if Jonker actively puts himself forward for England games? He seems to like TMOing them...

I suspect whoever makes the appointments just likes messing with England - just like when we always used to get Steve Walsh ...

[No 7&1/2]

You want a big crash ball 12???? Hmmm who in the squad who is fit could do that I wonder???

Genge. He played the roll of a number 8 in the back field for a game or 2 for Jones. Seems well set to move to 12 now.

[Recwatcher16]

Genge will want to stay where he is - Archie Griffin the academy TH prop at Bath is a prospect and very mobile but that's a pretty big drop into the deep end for your debut. If he is the second best TH in Wales, then there are some pretty big issues in Wales.

[Geordie]

You want a big crash ball 12???? Hmmm who in the squad who is fit could do that I wonder???

Hopefully Hartley will develop nicely with Saracens....

[Geordie]

I  think Dingwall will have been on tackle practice this week. 5 missed out of 9 is not a great stat.

I think it was 9 tackles made and 5 missed. Two of those missed will have been for the final try.

Thanks for the correction...still very poor for a 12. But his defence was brought up before the game i guess.

[lostinwales]

Anyone got a link for the stats?

https://www.espn.com/rugby/match/_/gameId/597378/league/180659

[mikey_dragon]

Wales team is out.


Beeb:

George North will return for Wales as Warren Gatland makes seven changes to his team to face England on Saturday.

Fit-again centre North makes his 50th Six Nations appearance.

Ioan Lloyd and Tomos Williams, who helped spark the comeback against Scotland, are rewarded with starts.

Gatland has also changed his entire starting front-row with Gareth Thomas, Elliot Dee and Keiron Assiratti all selected as well flanker Alex Mann for his first Test start.
Wales team to face England: Winnett; Dyer, North, Tompkins, Adams; Lloyd, Williams; Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachowski, Griffin, Rowlands, Basham, Hardy, Evans, Grady.

Some changes made, but sadly not enough. I think a win is beyond them but still, we should expect some response given how bad they were in the first half against Scotland. I expect Lloyd will go well, great little player.

[doctor_grey]

I  think Dingwall will have been on tackle practice this week. 5 missed out of 9 is not a great stat.

I think it was 9 tackles made and 5 missed. Two of those missed will have been for the final try.

Thanks for the correction...still very poor for a 12. But his defence was brought up before the game i guess.

I would think he has another game to prove the tackling misses were not his International level. I would say he was in a lot of rucks and was watching Ford a bit more as he does with Hutchinson. He did seem more comfortable when Fin came on as other Saints supporters have said. But that could also be a bit of looking at things through black, green and gold spectacles.

[doctor_grey]

Wales team is out.


Beeb:

George North will return for Wales as Warren Gatland makes seven changes to his team to face England on Saturday.

Fit-again centre North makes his 50th Six Nations appearance.

Ioan Lloyd and Tomos Williams, who helped spark the comeback against Scotland, are rewarded with starts.

Gatland has also changed his entire starting front-row with Gareth Thomas, Elliot Dee and Keiron Assiratti all selected as well flanker Alex Mann for his first Test start.
Wales team to face England: Winnett; Dyer, North, Tompkins, Adams; Lloyd, Williams; Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachowski, Griffin, Rowlands, Basham, Hardy, Evans, Grady.

Some changes made, but sadly not enough. I think a win is beyond them but still, we should expect some response given how bad they were in the first half against Scotland. I expect Lloyd will go well, great little player.

The Rugby world is a better place when Wales and England are going at it hammer and tongs. All Home Nations, to be fair. Sadly over the last four years England have set a pretty low bar.

[formerly known as Sam]

I  think Dingwall will have been on tackle practice this week. 5 missed out of 9 is not a great stat.

I think it was 9 tackles made and 5 missed. Two of those missed will have been for the final try.

Thanks for the correction...still very poor for a 12. But his defence was brought up before the game i guess.

I haven't really rated his defence much before this season where he seems to have made significant improvements. Hopefully he settles in a bit as that was only his debut. To be fair the only notable missed tackles were the two on the same player for the last Italy try, that was very poor from him in what was otherwise a fairly solid first outing. He does tend to be one that knits the midfield together as opposed to a stand out. I'm hoping he can become like another Ant Allen but we'll see.

If not there's other cabs waiting at the rank. We might see one or two in the A team game.

[mikey_dragon]

Wales team is out.


Beeb:

George North will return for Wales as Warren Gatland makes seven changes to his team to face England on Saturday.

Fit-again centre North makes his 50th Six Nations appearance.

Ioan Lloyd and Tomos Williams, who helped spark the comeback against Scotland, are rewarded with starts.

Gatland has also changed his entire starting front-row with Gareth Thomas, Elliot Dee and Keiron Assiratti all selected as well flanker Alex Mann for his first Test start.
Wales team to face England: Winnett; Dyer, North, Tompkins, Adams; Lloyd, Williams; Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachowski, Griffin, Rowlands, Basham, Hardy, Evans, Grady.

Some changes made, but sadly not enough. I think a win is beyond them but still, we should expect some response given how bad they were in the first half against Scotland. I expect Lloyd will go well, great little player.

The Rugby world is a better place when Wales and England are going at it hammer and tongs.  All Home Nations, to be fair.  Sadly over the last four years England have set a pretty low bar.

Yes there always is a certain edge to this fixture it seems, there's been some great matches over the years.

[No 7&1/2]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

[lostinwales]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

One irony is that in Tuilagi's early years one of the biggest issues was him getting stuck into rucks when he should have been where he belonged out in the backs.

[No 7&1/2]

To be fair him and Tom Croft were on a job share at that point.

[mountain man]

It's been suggested(whether tongue in cheek or a serious view) that Freddie Steward could make it as a 12 and there is some merit there. Maybe more than a back row.

[formerly known as Sam]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

Ah the Ronan O'Gara approach of replacing your hard hitting centre when they are unavailable. Can work if you've an athletic enough backrow option. La Rochelle having used both Botia and Tanga in that position though Botia is obviously a very versatile option, Tanga is an 8.

[king_carlos]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

One irony is that in Tuilagi's early years one of the biggest issues was him getting stuck into rucks when he should have been where he belonged out in the backs.

I always thought that was a bit of a myth. Ever since the Brumbies and then Wallabies under Jones we've seen centres being used in attacking rucks a huge amount to secure quick ball. Wingers as well are being used there more and more now.

It makes sense too if you're trying to secure quick ball on early phase play after a set-piece. Run a crash ball play where you have two carrying options and a support player. The carrying option that is more heavily marked becomes a dummy line, then smashes the ruck with the support player. You then run a forward pod off 9 to keep the quick ball going whilst the backs reset. It's an incredibly common structure. Carry off 10 to pressure the midfield. Carry off 9 to pressure the fringes. Swing it to one touchline and probe wider out.

There was just a section of England fans who seemed to feel Manu should carry 78 times a match regardless of him being triple marked.

Ma'a Nonu used to hit a ton of first phase rucks off lineout moves when Brad Thorn was in the ABs team. Thorn was brilliant but he was a very weak jumper so they used to frequently cut numbers, play off the top, then chuck trios such as Thorn, Kaino and Nonu up the middle. Nonu was frequently marked by a flanker for obvious reasons, so Carter would hit one of the forwards and Nonu would smash the ensuing ruck.

[SD]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

Little snippet taken from article in today's Times (hope thats ok - mods delete if not!) -

Ben Earl is a fascinating case in point. The Saracens open-side plays No 8 for his country but England, at least for a while, saw his athleticism and skill set as being ideal for inside centre. Jones trained him in the position during the 2020 Autumn Nations Cup
The injuries to Manu Tuilagi and Ollie Lawrence, on the back of Owen Farrell standing down from international duty, have highlighted the lack of inside centre options available to England and a shortage of back-line power.
The switch never happened for Earl. In the wake of the Sam Burgess debacle, it would have needed to be a collaborative move between club and country. “I can’t say that I haven’t spoken around a certain back-row player who I’ve said is a centre,” Hill said. “But I’ve been outvoted about 99 to one, so we go with it.”

[formerly known as Sam]

Looks like Lynagh is fed up of waiting too and is off to Italy. Long injury lay off may have focused his mind that it's not worth waiting around particularly after seeing Mercer ignored for so long. I think he's better than a lot of guys we've put up recently and it's another loss.

Apparently Quins didn't offer him a contract, per the Telegraph.

[Geordie]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

Little snippet taken from article in today's Times (hope thats ok - mods delete if not!) -

Ben Earl is a fascinating case in point. The Saracens open-side plays No 8 for his country but England, at least for a while, saw his athleticism and skill set as being ideal for inside centre. Jones trained him in the position during the 2020 Autumn Nations Cup
The injuries to Manu Tuilagi and Ollie Lawrence, on the back of Owen Farrell standing down from international duty, have highlighted the lack of inside centre options available to England and a shortage of back-line power.
The switch never happened for Earl. In the wake of the Sam Burgess debacle, it would have needed to be a collaborative move between club and country. “I can’t say that I haven’t spoken around a certain back-row player who I’ve said is a centre,” Hill said. “But I’ve been outvoted about 99 to one, so we go with it.”

Or we just allow Earl to become world beating 7 and bring through one of Hartley, Atkinson, Ojomoh at 12...and it wont be long till Lawrence is back to provide some power and maybe Freeman will move inward from wing to 13?

[No 7&1/2]

From one of those who wanted Simmonds at 12.

Tbf Earl.is never going to be a wc 7, he's not going to being the team when Curry is back.

[George Carlin]

I've seen snippets of quotes behind a telegraph paywall from Richard Hill on the debate re using back row players as 12s. Apparently he's been pushing to use one of our current ones at 12 already but has been voted down. I'm guessing it's Earls. Looks like we're lining up the next one we want to push to 12 as well in Pollack.

When people talk about loose forwards being able to handle like centres, they usually make that generalisation based on a highlight reel of great touches over the course of a season. In a test match environment, they tend to metamorphose back into having hands like cold mammaries.

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