Scarlets post another loss in their Accounts

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68664820

What is interesting is that the last 3 years Scarlets have posted the following results:-

2023 - 3 million loss
2022 - 1.8 million loss
2021 - 2. 4 million loss

Now when you look at the turnover for them it reads as follows:-

2023 Income - 12.9 Million
2022 Income - 13.3 Million
2021 Income - 5.78 Million (Covid affected turnover) - although this isn't confirmed by me

I'm not sure how a region can have these sort of turnover numbers and then spend beyond their means. It will be interesting to see how their spending went down in 2024 with a 5 million salary cap.

Now the calls from the Scarlets directors are for them to get help from the WRU. What amazes me in all this is nobody made them spend money beyond their means. Its one of the primary reasons this private ownership system and funding from the WRU won't work. Problem is the WRU is staring down the barrel now as well with them posting big losses themselves so I don't see where they would find the money either. One thing is clear none of the regions should be allowed to get further in debt at this point or they will never be able to service the debt. This isn't all down the Covid Loans either. Scarlets didn't have to build Parc Y Scarlets for 23 million with a council loan for a 13,800 seater stadium they never fill. They should have built something more modest. Granted I'm sure the stadium has likely increased revenue with other forms of income.

But honestly this is why the WRU simply can't really trust any of the regions to be responsible. It's pretty much the case with all the regions having similar stories.

Find it funny that you say the WRU can't trust the regions whilst at the same time saying they can't be allowed to get further into debt after the WRU said they have to re-pay COVID loans.

Look im just pointing out that in any form of business the regions would have gone bankrupt.

As for the Covid Loans of course they have to be repaid - that is the general gist of loans.

My point here is that if our regions are going to survive we need to start spending within our means. In my eyes the WRU havent gone far enough. Personally I would implement something similar to how the french clubs are governed. They have very specific financial rules on how much of their income they spend on various categories and cannot spend beyond their income streams.

Look im not WRU shill either. The new league plan and the way they spend isnt much better either at the moment.

But what I will say is WRU money will probably go down in the next few years as our golden decade is over. That in terms will hinder how much money they have to distribute. That means regions need to start realizing if income is likely to drop they just need to start cutting their cloth accordingly if they want to survive.

The thing is, the WRU insisted on slashing the funding. Yes, it was agreed by the regions. But it all came about pretty quickly. To go from, say, a budget spend of £7m last season to £5m this season (and £4.5m next) means that the regions need to absorb the hit for those players still under contract. For some regions they'll still need to spend £7m as there will be players under contract. They don't just end their contracts early because their funding is being cut? Where does that money come from? Well, in the case of the Scarlets you end up going into the red.

I get the impression that some people think the WRU bankrolls the regions. That's absolutely cr*p. They redistribute the monies the regions earn from TV and competitions. That's got to be worth a few million each. They then pay for the extra access and early release of players so Gatland can have more time with them in camp (fat lot of good that did this year). Not sure of the figure, but it's probably around a million each and is there so the regions can buy other players to cover for the extra time their own players are away (e.g. outside of international windows). England/RFU do the same with the clubs there. The regions are also paying £1m in INTEREST per year on that loan they needed to take out. That loan was to cover the money for competitions and TV that the WRU withheld during covid as it was skint itself. The regions still played during covid, still appeared in competitions and on TV, still had to pay the players, but the WRU didn't keep up their side of the bargain to redistribute that money to them that year, hence the loan they were asked to take out.

So add up the TV and competition money, the player release money (what ever it's called), the interest money that has been foisted on the regions because the WRU was unable to act the way other nations did during that time....... I bet we're not far off the £4.5m that the regions are due receive in annual 'funding ' from next season. So how much do the WRU REALLY contribute to the regions? Are they really funding them? Or just redistributing money earned?

My understanding is the reason the WRU receive all the income and redistribute it to the regions is because they are the contract holders.

The money distribution relates to them having sides entered in the tournament. But these do not stipulate the regions in name as receivers. In other words as long as the WRU nominate these teams it could be any side. So for example if a regions folded they could elect another side to take the place in order to meet the contract requirements.

So its also fair to say this isn't regional rugby's money by right. In essence the WRU nominate these teams to compete and then distribute the TV funding. It's also worth noting the Regions pay nothing for this "access right". So essentially they are gaining access for the URC and Europe without actually having to bid for this.

Just saying...

Welshmushroom wrote:My understanding is the reason the WRU receive all the income and redistribute it to the regions is because they are the contract holders.

The money distribution relates to them having sides entered in the tournament.  But these do not stipulate the regions in name as receivers.  In other words as long as the WRU nominate these teams it could be any side.  So for example if a regions folded they could elect another side to take the place in order to meet the contract requirements.

So its also fair to say this isn't regional rugby's money by right.  In essence the WRU nominate these teams to compete and then distribute the TV funding.  It's also worth noting the Regions pay nothing for this "access right".  So essentially they are gaining access for the URC and Europe without actually having to bid for this.

Just saying...

Oh, absolutely.  I get that. And I'm not saying it's theirs by right.  But lets be honest, if the WRU put no teams forward it would get £0 from the TV/URC/European Cup monies. So why would the clubs entered not expect to receive that money for being in it? It's that competition and TV money that pays at least some of the wages, as it does in every country that is in the URC. Hence why SA joined - they want the TV and competition money.

On the 2nd point - are you saying all the nations pay to access the URC?!  That they 'bid' to get added to it?  I don't believe that's true.  As far as I know here is no cost to enter the URC, surely? Instead, as a competition that Wales are a partner in, we (URC) sell the rights to TV companies who pay us to be in it!  No-one in Ireland, Scotland, Italy, SA, etc. pay or bid to enter the URC.  So the regions are not getting some sort of free ride here.  Odd thing to say.

No that's not what I'm saying and rugby can't really afford it either.

But generally in other sports such franchises do usually have to make bids for their placements. So what I am saying is that participation in the URC and Europe does actually have a sales value given revenue is generated from being there.

What I am saying is having free access to a tournament that essentially gives you free TV revenue is a gift in itself. So there is a value attached to it in most sports and the fact rugby usually gives access away for free is still passing on a monetary value on to the regions/clubs for these rights. Now I appreciate rugby clubs couldn't afford them in the current climate but lets not diminish the fact the respective Unions would have a right to charge for them if they wanted too.

My point here based on the original article which had the Scarlets Director complaining again is that it is not their divine right to be participating in Pro Rugby. If we are being brutally honest Llanelli should never have had a franchise to begin with due to the population in west wales and given the Ospreys were already being formed out of two clubs and in Swansea which is the bigger area and on the doorstep of the Scarlets. West Wales can probably only support one pro side and they should have placed pro rugby by area. The fact North Wales has a third of the Welsh population on not a single pro team playing there is a scandal in my eyes. Even the U20 when they play up there are getting bigger attendances than half the welsh teams down south.

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club and was never really based on the ability to start attracting big crowds.

To be honest even with the Ospreys management I have serious questions to ask. Now that they are leaving the Liberty and looking for a ground could have been a great team to move the team to North Wales for example. I'm sure they could have checked out if there was a way to ground share with Wrexham until they got plans in place for a smaller purpose built facility.

I'm just getting tired of people complaining instead of actually coming to terms with the reality and living within their means. Scarlets have had a history of bailouts and this seems like another attempt at the same. At some point people have to take responsibility for their actions.

The regions have been really hit by Covid, as have many teams across multiple nations. The ones better able to absorb are the ones bankrolled by unions (e.g. Ireland). England has a similar model to us and we’ve seen some teams fold there. I think it’s harsh to blame the regions for not living within their means. If you’re turning over £13m then you might cut your cloth accordingly and have a squad value of £7-8m. After all, there is a pressure to get results and to compete with teams in the league spending similar. When that income goes to £0 due to covid then it’s going to have a massive impact especially when you have a union (WRU) and government (Welsh gov) who are not prepared to help out in the same way as they have in Ireland and England. Our teams have been completely screwed in that regard in comparison to other nations. So the ‘complaining’ is justified on this one I feel. And now we’ve dropped the funding while teams still have players on big contracts to see out. No transition period. No phased approach. Just wham straight down to £5m while still needing to service the original wage bill (minus a few who have thankfully left). Not surprising then that the one who seems least affected at the moment is the Dragons who had a wage bill of around the current funding level already.

Covid is of course not the only factor here, but it’s had a huge impact that I do not think you’re taking into account when consider these private businesses and the way they’re struggling currently. Of course, going forward we could just say we’ll pay £30k a player and have a wage bill of £1.35m for 40 odd players. Easy to run it on that. But what sort of players are we going to get, realistically? That’s semi-pro sort of level. And then it will get to a point of the teams being so poor that we devalue the league and will be asked to leave. We have a duty to fund the teams to a level that allows at least some competitiveness within the competitions that are paying us to be in them.

Remember too that these regions have private owners putting their own money in. You talk about taking the game to the north but I don’t hear of anyone coming forward to fund it. Because to repeat my point from earlier, the WRU does not fund it all. You need private owners to come in and risk their own money, and be willing to write it off, due to the model we have in Wales. And we’re here because the WRU does not want to and cannot fund the whole pro game in Wales. They didn’t want to 20 odd year ago either when we went regional, hence they asked the then owners to back it rather than setting up their own regional sides and running it themselves. And what’s wrong really with sport being concentrated in hot bed areas? Rugby league in England is concentrated in the north where it is most popular. You don’t see then trying to divide England into 10 neat zones and insist that each has a rugby league team so the whole country is represented. Same in football. Cornwall and Devon don’t have a premier league team, but the FA don’t try to rig it by setting up a team there. I just question whether north Wales is really the hotbed of rugby interest needed to host a pro team? No one goes to watch RGC in the prem. Is there evidence that they’d go to watch a newly made up pro team there?

I get your point. But Rugby has a different problem that Football does not suffer from. Football is the No1 sport in the UK by a massive margin.

Rugby at best is probably somewhere at 3 or 4. That means it will compete to get fans with other sports more than say football has to. Also the reason Devon & Cornwall etc don't have premiership teams in also because they don't have the population down there. It's no surprise that every major premiership football club is in a city.

And that is my point with the Scarlets & Ospreys. West Wales does not have the population to support 2 pro clubs. I question if they have enough to support 1 properly. It simply from a numbers point of view make sense to place teams there. North Wales has a third of wales population with some parts not even having a alternative sport to follow. Putting Pro rugby would have made sense for at least one team.

I'm just saying that if Pro Rugby in wales will survive they need to start making better decisions that actually make sense.

The WRU spent £37.5m across the four regions last year.  
In their recently published accounts, Cardiff Blues Ltd received £11.1m in WRU income and URC/EPCR competition income.  Their rugby wage bill was 10.2m.

In 2021, the WRU spent £20.5m on the four regions.  In addition, the WRU negotiated with the Welsh Govt to give a non-repayable grant of £13.5m which was split 5 ways - £2.7m each - between WRU and 4 regions.   That’s at least another £8.1m to the total figure.  
The IRFU negotiated a similar grant of which €14m went to the provinces to pay off some of their player recharge debts.   CVC investment monies in PRO14 were treated as competition income by IRFU, so €13.2m of that was passed to the provinces to reduce the remainder of their player recharge debts.  
The IRFU received and have spent €28.5m from CVC for PRO14 stake.
The WRU received £23.6m including this current year and have spent about 750% of it up to last financial year.

WRU still spend to much at grassroots and lower club level. With their turnover they could probably have invested a little more in the regions but probably only by 1-2 million per region.

I dont think money is the major issue in Wales either. Its a lack of vision on development that is killing us.

What actually should have happened in Wales is as follows:-

Regional rugby shouldn't have academies at all. Purely Pro squads only. Key here is only experienced head coaches should be getting these jobs. I think the regions should overall be owned by the WRU not privatized. The primary direction of development here is to make sure the strategy around training facilities and owning their own stadiums and have them essentially running zero deficits. Once these things are in place all the regions could probably generate additional income around these facilities. Once that was done you could start freeing up cash on playing squads. Spending money on players does nothing for the long term health of the game in wales. At some stage they could bring this back and spend more on players again but not before all the development was in place. During this period I wouldn't be bothered if players did play overseas so players dont lose out if they can get more. But at some stage I would probably have a play in wales to play for wales rule bought back once the regions could support the wage demands. If they did go abroad you would probably need to relax overseas signing restrictions so regions could import players until the next generations are developed. This would be also limited. I would probably restructure the placements of the regions as well. Would probably move a pro rugby team up north as part of this restructure. I'd change how Welsh national tickets are supplied as well. Season ticket holders at regions should get full allocations to purchase welsh tickets. That way regions could start selling more season tickets. I'd remove the allocations to all clubs in wales.

Semi Pro level. I'd make countless changes here. Would have removed 2 more teams and probably had them playing with 8. These sides would have full coaching/physio teams which would be a development ground for coaches at that level to show they are capable of developing players and locating young talents. For me this would be a purely U22 tournament. Would be a development tool for our U18, U20 and those players that have just dropped out of the U20's for them to all compete against each other in professional setups. You would need to drop this to 8 team so they are not exposed to long seasons.
Then I would bring a similar thing in to the NFL where each season Regions can sign any players from this league, and base it on where they place. 4th picks first 3rd picks second etc. I probably would restrict selection from this league for 20-21 year old players only as younger guys will unlikely have physically been conditioned to play at a pro level yet. In the opening few seasons you probably wouldnt be able to have a NFL draft system but eventually the idea would be that 20-30 players are promoted out of this league every year to cover the retiring or leaving welsh players at the regions. This semi Pro level is also where i would be looking to bring in overseas players with a view to qualify for wales given it take 5 years. That way Wales would be able to address issues of weakness in areas that are difficult to fill without qualifying on residency. I'd also make sure facilities are developed to a pro standard over time.
I'd make sure this season is played in the off season of URC rugby and ideally work with the other Unions to have the URC played in a shorter block window so that fans could still go watch the semi pro level without competing against each other.

All other rugby in wales should not be paying players at all. Should be for fun only. I'd put a greater emphasis on schools rugby as this would be the recruiting grounds for the semi pro level.

That's just the basics but there are ton more things like this I would be doing. This I think would be a better system for developing coaches and players. Currently we have to many people getting paid at semi pro level who will never make the step up or have long gone past their best. By restricting the age limit we are giving youngsters chances to show their abilities and competition for chances to move to pro level. Also it limits how long players stay at those sides as well and moves people along.

Pot Hale wrote:The WRU spent £37.5m across the four regions last year.  
In their recently published accounts, Cardiff Blues Ltd received £11.1m in WRU income and URC/EPCR competition income.  Their rugby wage bill was 10.2m.

In 2021, the WRU spent £20.5m on the four regions.  In addition, the WRU negotiated with the Welsh Govt to give a non-repayable grant of £13.5m which was split 5 ways - £2.7m each - between WRU and 4 regions.   That’s at least another £8.1m to the total figure.  
The IRFU negotiated a similar grant of which €14m went to the provinces to pay off some of their player recharge debts.   CVC investment monies in PRO14 were treated as competition income by IRFU, so €13.2m of that was passed to the provinces to reduce the remainder of their player recharge debts.  
The IRFU received and have spent €28.5m from CVC for PRO14 stake.
The WRU received £23.6m including this current year and have spent about 750% of it up to last financial year.

‘Rugby wage bill of £10.2m’. Just to be clear that £10.2m is not their pro team squad spend. According to their accounts that spend is on 247 people. 136 of them are operation and admin staff according to the accounts. It says 110 of these are coaching and playing staff. Given Cardiff pro team only has around 40 players I would assume that this salary spend is therefore also for Cardiff RFC semi pro team in the Welsh premiership (which would account for some of the income from the WRU too), coaching staff, and also for the Cardiff rugby academy and associated staff. So £10m on the face of it looks like a good amount for a pro team. But for 247 people it’s got to go a long way.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The WRU spent £37.5m across the four regions last year.  
In their recently published accounts, Cardiff Blues Ltd received £11.1m in WRU income and URC/EPCR competition income.  Their rugby wage bill was 10.2m.

In 2021, the WRU spent £20.5m on the four regions.  In addition, the WRU negotiated with the Welsh Govt to give a non-repayable grant of £13.5m which was split 5 ways - £2.7m each - between WRU and 4 regions.   That’s at least another £8.1m to the total figure.  
The IRFU negotiated a similar grant of which €14m went to the provinces to pay off some of their player recharge debts.   CVC investment monies in PRO14 were treated as competition income by IRFU, so €13.2m of that was passed to the provinces to reduce the remainder of their player recharge debts.  
The IRFU received and have spent €28.5m from CVC for PRO14 stake.
The WRU received £23.6m including this current year and have spent about 750% of it up to last financial year.

‘Rugby wage bill of £10.2m’. Just to be clear that £10.2m is not their pro team squad spend. According to their accounts that spend is on 247 people. 136 of them are operation and admin staff according to the accounts. It says 110 of these are coaching and playing staff. Given Cardiff pro team only has around 40 players I would assume that this salary spend is therefore also for Cardiff RFC semi pro team in the Welsh premiership (which would account for some of the income from the WRU too), coaching staff, and also for the Cardiff rugby academy and associated staff. So £10m on the face of it looks like a good amount for a pro team. But for 247 people it’s got to go a long way.

So this is fundamentally the problem - I really don't think the onus of academy players should be on the regions including the infrastructure for it. It should be first team coaches, physios, pro players and some staff to run the facilities. But nothing else. I would suggest having 247 staff at Cardiff is totally crazy.

The money the WRU already spend on Grassroots & semi pro should be more than enough to create a academy league that is well funded. The issue however is that the new proposal for the semi pro league does not address this issue at all. As I pointed in my post above it should have been a academy league with less teams in it than the 10 they suggested.

The issue with the current plan is to many players who will never make the step up will continue to earn money in wales. Wales needs to use all that funding on running the correct structures which I don't have faith they will.

Welshmushroom wrote:

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club and was never really based on the ability to start attracting big crowds.  

.

Utter lies. You are clueless on this and have posted so much nonsense in this thread it's unreal. Llanelli Scarlets Ltd paid £8m upfront to be a region.

Any other team that could have affrded to do that would have been in the conversation too.

Why don't otehr teams get hounded about their profit and loss and existence?

Connacht, Edinburgh, loads of English clubs - should they be closed down too?

Man Utd annoucned a loss of £28m. They are £960m in debt - I guess they should be closed down tomorrow right? Right?

Or is it just the Scarlets that get singled out?

Welshmushroom wrote:  Scarlets have had a history of bailouts and this seems like another attempt at the same.

Wrong.
Never been bailed out.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club and was never really based on the ability to start attracting big crowds.  

.

Utter lies. You are clueless on this and have posted so much nonsense in this thread it's unreal. Llanelli Scarlets Ltd paid £8m upfront to be a region.

Any other team that could have affrded to do that would have been in the conversation too.

I'm not entirely sure why you think my statement is utter lies? My point is that West Wales cannot and does not have the population to support 2 pro teams. Nothing you mention here addresses this fundamental issue. Also this 8 million are you suggesting they paid this to the WRU for them to become a region or are you talking about the 8 million they spent on themselves at inception? Your post seems to indicate they made some sort of payment which I cannot find a single supported document for. If you have this link feel free to share as I would like to correct anything relating to this.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  Scarlets have had a history of bailouts and this seems like another attempt at the same.

Wrong.
Never been bailed out.

Are you suggesting loans taken from the WRU and Carmarthen Council do not qualify as bailouts? I'm pretty sure that Park Y Scarlets was built primarily with funds from Carmarthen Council. A bailout is anything were spends are not supported by your income. Unless you are saying the they have never taken loans from either.

Just to be clear the Covid Loan would constitute a bailout.

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  Scarlets have had a history of bailouts and this seems like another attempt at the same.

Wrong.
Never been bailed out.

Are you suggesting loans taken from the WRU and Carmarthen Council do not qualify as bailouts?

Yes, unless you think I have been 'bailed out' by having a mortgage.

I'm pretty sure that Park Y Scarlets was built primarily with funds from Carmarthen Council.  A bailout is anything were spends are not supported by your income.  Unless you are saying the they have never taken loans from either.

£7m provided by the Scarlets
£18m provided by the Council to be paid back.

Just to be clear the Covid Loan would constitute a bailout.  

So the IRFU have just been bailed out too?

The WRU have been bailed out?

Pretty much everyone in existence has been bailed out. What a nonsense way of thinking.

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club and was never really based on the ability to start attracting big crowds.  

.

Utter lies. You are clueless on this and have posted so much nonsense in this thread it's unreal. Llanelli Scarlets Ltd paid £8m upfront to be a region.

Any other team that could have affrded to do that would have been in the conversation too.

I'm not entirely sure why you think my statement is utter lies?  My point is that West Wales cannot and does not have the population to support 2 pro teams.  Nothing you mention here addresses this fundamental issue.  Also this 8 million are you suggesting they paid this to the WRU for them to become a region or are you talking about the 8 million they spent on themselves at inception?  Your post seems to indicate they made some sort of payment which I cannot find a single supported document for.  If you have this link feel free to share as I would like to correct anything relating to this.  

This is an utter lie. And is also libelous:

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club

The scarlets paid to be a region. £1m not £8m sorry.

In truth, that should always have been the emphasis, given Cardiff paid £1m for standalone status at the time of the re-organisation.

That’s certainly how the Scarlets approached it, having done the same.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugbys-name-mess-explained-19948574

RugbyFan100 wrote:Why don't otehr teams get hounded about their profit and loss and existence?

Connacht, Edinburgh, loads of English clubs - should they be closed down too?

Man Utd annoucned a loss of £28m. They are £960m in debt - I guess they should be closed down tomorrow right? Right?

Or is it just the Scarlets that get singled out?

I wasn't singling the Scarlets out for this. All the Welsh Regions have exactly the same issue as well as all the other rugby clubs in the UK & Ireland. My issue here is if Wales is going to survive, Pro rugby teams need to spend within their incomes. WRU cannot sustain losses at any costs because even their income streams are limited and they themselves cannot underwrite large amounts of spending. Its exactly the same in England which is why 3 clubs have already gone to the wall and their league has been reduced to 10 teams.

You cannot compare Football in the same context as rugby. It's not the same. The primary reason is because top Football clubs generally are not struggling for investors. If the Glaciers for example wanted to sell Man Utd, there would be a buyer tomorrow. Newcastle have been trying to sell their rugby club to a benefactor for over 2 seasons and still can't get anyone to buy them. The Man Utd example is also a terrible one to pick. Part of the reason they have a 960 million pound debt is because the Glaciers have taken money out of Man Utd to pay themselves money back to cover their initial purchase of the club.

I'm also getting the impression from your posts that you are taking these as Anti Scarlets rants which they are not. I've primarily said 3 things:-

1. I don't think private ownership of regional rugby works.
2. West Wales can't support 2 clubs in terms of population and fans. I've already posted early or on other threads Ospreys for example who can't afford to play at the Liberty Stadium should consider a move to north wales. This isn't anti scarlets. I'm just saying 2 clubs in that part of Wales is not viable.
3. Regions should not be spending more than the income they have. I understand sometimes these things happen but if they aimed for small profits each year they could offset the odd occasions were losses were unpredicted. Basically like any business functions. If they do that they will still be around even in decades from now.

Welshmushroom wrote:

I wasn't singling the Scarlets out for this.

Then you sure typed the wrong subject title.

 My issue here is if Wales is going to survive, Pro rugby teams need to spend within their incomes.

Then they will be of semi pro standard, wicth playing budgets that equal Ealing and Jersey.

 WRU cannot sustain losses at any costs because even their income streams are limited and they themselves cannot underwrite large amounts of spending.  Its exactly the same in England which is why 3 clubs have already gone to the wall and their league has been reduced to 10 teams.
 I've primarily said 3 things:-

1.  I don't think private ownership of regional rugby works.

There is no other model for Wales.

2.  West Wales can't support 2 clubs in terms of population and fans.  I've already posted early or on other threads Ospreys for example who can't afford to play at the Liberty Stadium should consider a move to north wales.   This isn't anti scarlets.  I'm just saying 2 clubs in that part of Wales is not viable.

Semed fine from 2003 - 2017

3. Regions should not be spending more than the income they have.  I understand sometimes these things happen but if they aimed for small profits each year they could offset the odd occasions were losses were unpredicted.  Basically like any business functions.  If they do that they will still be around even in decades from now.

They've now been around 21 years doing this same thing. In your world, if they don't spend more than they have, then they will be employinmg squads that are not profesisonal level. You're trying to fix an issue with a solution that makes the professional game in Wales collapse.

[quote="RugbyFan100"][quote="Welshmushroom"][quote="RugbyFan100"]

Welshmushroom wrote:

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club and was never really based on the ability to start attracting big crowds.  

.

This is an utter lie. And is also libelous:

The only reason Scarlets got that Status was because of the historic context of the club

So you are therefore suggesting the ability to start attracting big crowds was part of the reason they got regional status? The attendances in Llanelli over the last 10 years of regional rugby would disagree with you.

Also the 1 million contribution is a joke when you consider they got this back in the opening year simply from the WRU funding distribution out. It would be like me paying you a quid and you giving me back a fiver. If they had paid 8 million I would have said fair enough.

Also so I am clear I don't blame the Scarlets or any of the regions for this. The people at the creation of the regions was the WRU (and Moffet). At the time they should have really thought about the long term growth and support for pro rugby in Wales. At inception they should have established a pro team in north wales. West Wales should have had one. And South East probably could have supported 2 as mid wales wouldn't have been viable in terms of population in the area.

The only thing i care about in terms of welsh rugby is that the games survives in wales. I have no axe to grind with specific clubs. My issue is with the structure of the pro game in wales. Sorry if you dont like this.

You're being thick or on a wind up. I have stated more than once that the reason the Scarlets got regional status is because they stumped up cash for it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:You're being thick or on a wind up. I have stated more than once that the reason the Scarlets got regional status is because they stumped up cash for it.

Neither - paying 1 million for essentially access rights to millions in WRU funding is hardly a stumping up cash. It's more like taking a temporary loan that you get paid once the funding comes back to you.

Again though the issue wasnt the Scarlets or Cardiff who both did this. What should have happened is the WRU should have just made the decision based on what actually would have made long term sense for the country. Regional rugby being in this current state is 100% down to the WRU.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Neither - paying 1 million for essentially access rights to millions in WRU funding is hardly a stumping up cash.  It's more like taking a temporary loan that you get paid once the funding comes back to you.  

The reality is that Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool and whoever else was moaning that they wanted to standalone too, COULD NOT AFFORD IT. Only the ones that coudl afford it, did it.

Again though the issue wasnt the Scarlets or Cardiff who both did this.  What should have happened is the WRU should have just made the decision based on what actually would have made long term sense for the country.  Regional rugby being in this current state is 100% down to the WRU.

That decision, immediately gave us the best generation of players and Grand Slams since the 70s.

Wales hadn't won a Grand Slam in 24 years before regionalism was setup. Since it's inception, we've now won 4 Grand Slams and the cubs have won 6 league titles.

The gaslighting of some sections of supposed Welsh rugby supporters is truly remarkable.

[quote="RugbyFan100"]

Welshmushroom wrote:

 My issue here is if Wales is going to survive, Pro rugby teams need to spend within their incomes.

Then they will be of semi pro standard, wicth playing budgets that equal Ealing and Jersey.

This comment leads me to believe you don't actually understand the current issue of regional rugby in Wales. Firstly how much you spend does not determine the standard of rugby you produce. One of the key issues a lot of welsh players are discovering already is that the offers outside of Wales are not actually there in a lot of cases. I'd say probably 80% of regional rugby players in wales cannot get improved contracts in England, Japan or France. Ireland don't recruit Welsh players at all generally. Neither do Scotland. So of the 120+ players at pro level maybe 20 of those guys probably can secure a contract that improves on their current market value.

So that means for 80% of players outside of Wales there isn't a market. So what actually happens is in a lot of these cases they are probably not worth the contract they are getting paid to begin with. So the 5million salary cap (20 million in total over 4 clubs) has 80% of its players valued on valuations that can't be justified by any logical means. Part of the reason this happened in the first place is because the last 2 decades of regional clubs internally bidding against each other. So the market pressure in most cases purely became an internal pressure.

What this internal inflation did do is actually take development money away from improving facilities and investing in youth. Its this reason alone why regional rugby does not have good age grade and academy players on their books.

Also not to be pedantic but implying playing budgets will be similar to Ealing and Jersey is not accurate in the slightest. Firstly there is a massive spend gap between the 2 you just mentioned. Jersey have gone fully amateur to avoid going bust last year. Ealing have a benefactor bank rolling them for millions. Totally different ends of the scale with both of those.

Essentially the only real market for Wales players is in Wales which is totally controllable. The majority of players in Wales if not paid by regional rugby would be playing semi pro or unemployed and playing for fun again.

[quote="RugbyFan100"]

Welshmushroom wrote:

Again though the issue wasnt the Scarlets or Cardiff who both did this.  What should have happened is the WRU should have just made the decision based on what actually would have made long term sense for the country.  Regional rugby being in this current state is 100% down to the WRU.

That decision, immediately gave us the best generation of players and Grand Slams since the 70s.

Yeah and now has led us to the worst generation of players since the 70's. Which goes back to my point about why it wasn't sustainable.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Neither - paying 1 million for essentially access rights to millions in WRU funding is hardly a stumping up cash.  It's more like taking a temporary loan that you get paid once the funding comes back to you.  

The reality is that Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool and whoever else was moaning that they wanted to standalone too, COULD NOT AFFORD IT. Only the ones that coudl afford it, did it.

Not really sinking in with you is it.  These contributions shouldn't have allowed to begin with.  The only reason this was done is to exclude sides from the conversation on money grounds.  What the WRU should have done is exclude all clubs from the conversation until they actually established how, where and what the future growth potential areas in wales were. As I said before North Wales should have been a destination purely on the grounds of potential of supporters that could have been drawn to the sport of the next 2-3 decades.  Should have been done on a long term strategy not short term one.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Wales hadn't won a Grand Slam in 24 years before regionalism was setup. Since it's inception, we've now won 4 Grand Slams and the cubs have won 6 league titles.

The gaslighting of some sections of supposed Welsh rugby supporters is truly remarkable.

Actually I would say we managed to do this despite the deficiencies of regional rugby not because of it which a lot of people at pro level rugby in wales have said countless of times including Gatland. Look at the Ospreys for example during the Galaticos era. The Liberty should have been sold out. If that team would have been in Gwent you would have seen 15K+ crowds every week.

Scarlets attendances in the URC have been getting worse each season and at this point Wales U20 when they play their home games in north wales have bigger crowds. To put that into context. They are still amateur status not a pro outfit.

Part of the reason I am so concerned is that I think the WRU will suffer in terms of income in the next 5-10 years. I think they maxed their incomes out over the golden years. If internationally speaking we have 5 years similar to this season the WRU will end up making less than the 100 million they currently turnover. That will be because sponsors and supporter numbers probably pay the same rates as when the team was doing well. If that happens (and granted I dont have a crystal ball) - then the money distributed (available) to the regions will need to reduce as they wont have the money.

So we are looking at a very real possibility that regional will end up with less money not more than they keep wanting. What do we do then? We will have at that point entered the death spiral.

One of my main gripes with regional rugby is that we have had infighting between WRU and them for over 2 decades now. And we are no further along that when we started. Meanwhile even places like Italy are starting to do a better job than us with a lot less resources. At some point we could be looking at a very real scenario where you have to drive to Gloucester to watch a game of pro rugby. Is that in any Welsh persons interest?

Basically rugby in wales needs now more than ever to start coming together for the greater good.

[quote="RugbyFan100"]

Welshmushroom wrote:

2.  West Wales can't support 2 clubs in terms of population and fans.  I've already posted early or on other threads Ospreys for example who can't afford to play at the Liberty Stadium should consider a move to north wales.   This isn't anti scarlets.  I'm just saying 2 clubs in that part of Wales is not viable.

Semed fine from 2003 - 2017

I'm almost certain this is not the case. I'll look at the numbers again at some point but last time I did it didn't make for good reading for the Scarlets since inception. Even the when they won the numbers where nothing to write home about considering they have a 13K Stadium. But I'll come back to you on this with the stats at some point....

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  Scarlets have had a history of bailouts and this seems like another attempt at the same.

Wrong.
Never been bailed out.

Are you suggesting loans taken from the WRU and Carmarthen Council do not qualify as bailouts?

Yes, unless you think I have been 'bailed out' by having a mortgage.

Not even remotely the same things. I'll explain why.

Your mortgage is based on your income. It is a loan that is covered by the asset itself. Even if you default on your mortgage they don't lose out as they take your house. It is a loan that "you" applied for.

The fundamental difference is the Covid loan for example had to be taken out by the WRU and as the regional teams could not get them independently. The difference is this is a unsecured loan and the liability of repayment lies with the WRU not the regions. In other words the liability lies with the WRU not Scarlets so if say regional rugby defaulted for example the lenders would come after WRU held assets. So its essentially a zero risk loan for the Scarlets that isn't in their name. Not even remotely the same things.

Additionally I would also point out the Government referred to this as a bailout fund So I think it's not just my viewpoint when essentially a Government institution refers to the funding in the same phrasing.

So to summarize you may want to edit your initial statement as I believe this is incorrect.

WM, are you confusing the government grant (which might be considered a bailout fund) with the Covid loan? The bailout fund was there for loads of businesses from the government. They had a tranche of funding available for sports organisations too, as per Pot Hale’s post above. England, Ireland and Scotland were all given grants due to Covid impact.

On the Covid loan…..I’m not sure you appreciate why it was needed. The regions and the WRU have a participation agreement. The current one runs for 6 years and stipulates what the WRU will contribute to each region in terms of £m funding, made up of monies from competition income, tv monies, player release money, probably academy money, etc. We had a participation agreement in place at the time of Covid too. So that year, like every other, the WRU had a contract in place to pay the regions x million pounds for being in competitions, being on TV, releasing their players to wales (games were still going on), etc. Can’t remember what it was in Covid year but let’s say around £25m between the 4. However, that year the WRU could not afford to pay the regions. They essentially reneged on their contact. So who really is being bailed out here?! Yes, a lot of the WRU money comes from international match income which was severely affected by Covid. But they still had contractual obligations to fulfil with the regions which they could not do. It seems overly harsh to me that it is the regions themselves who had take on the loan to pay themselves what the WRU could not, and now at a stupid rate of 8% which I’m sure I read the other day costs something like £1m a year interest.

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Why don't otehr teams get hounded about their profit and loss and existence?

Connacht, Edinburgh, loads of English clubs - should they be closed down too?

Man Utd annoucned a loss of £28m. They are £960m in debt - I guess they should be closed down tomorrow right? Right?

Or is it just the Scarlets that get singled out?

I wasn't singling the Scarlets out for this.  All the Welsh Regions have exactly the same issue as well as all the other rugby clubs in the UK & Ireland.  My issue here is if Wales is going to survive, Pro rugby teams need to spend within their incomes.  WRU cannot sustain losses at any costs because even their income streams are limited and they themselves cannot underwrite large amounts of spending.  Its exactly the same in England which is why 3 clubs have already gone to the wall and their league has been reduced to 10 teams.

You cannot compare Football in the same context as rugby.  It's not the same.  The primary reason is because top Football clubs generally are not struggling for investors.  If the Glaciers for example wanted to sell Man Utd, there would be a buyer tomorrow.  Newcastle have been trying to sell their rugby club to a benefactor for over 2 seasons and still can't get anyone to buy them.  The Man Utd example is also a terrible one to pick.  Part of the reason they have a 960 million pound debt is because the Glaciers have taken money out of Man Utd to pay themselves money back to cover their initial purchase of the club.  

I'm also getting the impression from your posts that you are taking these as Anti Scarlets rants which they are not.  I've primarily said 3 things:-

1.  I don't think private ownership of regional rugby works.
2.  West Wales can't support 2 clubs in terms of population and fans.  I've already posted early or on other threads Ospreys for example who can't afford to play at the Liberty Stadium should consider a move to north wales.   This isn't anti scarlets.  I'm just saying 2 clubs in that part of Wales is not viable.
3. Regions should not be spending more than the income they have.  I understand sometimes these things happen but if they aimed for small profits each year they could offset the odd occasions were losses were unpredicted.  Basically like any business functions.  If they do that they will still be around even in decades from now.

Yet you felt the need to create a thread on them on this basis?

I see the Ospreys & Cardiff made a loss too, where is your thread on them?

Welshmushroom wrote:

But honestly this is why the WRU simply can't really trust any of the regions to be responsible.  It's pretty much the case with all the regions having similar stories.

I literally said this in the opening post which implies all regions have similar stories. Yes I used Scarlets as the example post as the numbers were close to hand and partly due to the linked article in the news this week. That is what prompted the thread.

I'm don't have some vendetta against the Scarlets as people seem to think in this thread.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

But honestly this is why the WRU simply can't really trust any of the regions to be responsible.  It's pretty much the case with all the regions having similar stories.

I literally said this in the opening post which implies all regions have similar stories.  Yes I used Scarlets as the example post as the numbers were close to hand and partly due to the linked article in the news this week.  That is what prompted the thread.

I'm don't have some vendetta against the Scarlets as people seem to think in this thread.  

So why didn't you put "3 Welsh Regions post more losses" as the thread title instead of singling out one region?

You have made the whole thread about the Scarlets then have the audacity to say that it's not about them.

Now post Munster's debt.

Ospreys

2023 - 2.15 million loss
2022 - 1.18 million loss
2021 - Couldnt find anything in the news on the published accounts
2023 Income - Couldnt find anything in the news on the published accounts
2022 Income - Couldnt find anything in the news on the published accounts
2021 Income - Couldnt find anything in the news on the published accounts


Cardiff
2023 - 2.1 million loss
2022 - 2.2 million loss
2021 - 1.6 million loss
2023 Income - 16.1 million
2022 Income - 13.2 million
2021 Income - Wasn't provided by articles - similar drop to Scarlets I suspect due to Covid

Dragons
2023 are not being published until June 2024 by the looks of things. The previous 2 years were under WRU accounts and there appears nothing I can find on these years.

Now I could get the details for others but I'm not paying for the companies house reports.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Now post Munster's debt.

Errrr let's not be dragging other nations into this very Welsh conversation.
We have our own problems thanks

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Now post Munster's debt.

Errrr let's not be dragging other nations into this very Welsh conversation.
We have our own problems thanks

Eeeeexactly. There is never any context allowed.

How the hell is money from the local council to build a stadium a ‘bail out’?! It was a partnership! They worked together to do something that would enhance the local area and bring in revenue. We’ve been screaming out for Newport City Council to partner with our sports teams over on the east side in order to improve the local area and sport offering. But Newport City Council are a bit backwards in that regard.

Working with local partners is exactly how these things should be done as they are mutually beneficial. Pool resources, share knowledge and expertise, and then share the benefits that these things bring. Look to France - a lot of their stadiums are municipality stadiums, built and owned by the government (Toulouse play at one I believe). Were they bailed out?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Now post Munster's debt.

Errrr let's not be dragging other nations into this very Welsh conversation.
We have our own problems thanks

Eeeeexactly. There is never any context allowed.

A serious answer is there is no point comparing debt between Munster and Scarletts as they are both under completely different systems, so I'm not sure what context you're looking for.

Comparing any province/region/club/franchise from different countries can only be done within the context that they are all under different systems and shouldn't be compared in a like for like manner.

So the debt of Munster, Scarlets, sarries etc cannot really be compared as the debts are owed to different people under different rules/agreements/circumstances.

One think I think we can all say is ALL rugby playing nations are having funding issues and trying to find ways to be sustainable.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:How the hell is money from the local council to build a stadium a ‘bail out’?! It was a partnership! They worked together to do something that would enhance the local area and bring in revenue. We’ve been screaming out for Newport City Council to partner with our sports teams over on the east side in order to improve the local area and sport offering. But Newport City Council are a bit backwards in that regard.

Working with local partners is exactly how these things should be done as they are mutually beneficial. Pool resources, share knowledge and expertise, and then share the benefits that these things bring. Look to France - a lot of their stadiums are municipality stadiums, built and owned by the government (Toulouse play at one I believe). Were they bailed out?

More like an investment, than partnership,
for Connacht before the government gave a grant of €20m they carried out independent economic research carried out in 2016, found that Connacht Rugby contributes €34.4 million to the regional economy. I would assume that Dragons and Newport would be similar.

Agreed. But you need a forward thinking local government/council to buy into this sort of thinking