Louis lovers and the Braddock problem !!

A little while back I watched the Louis v Braddock fight in color and the film was really good......I'd only seen highlights of the first round and the finish previously and I was surprised at how well the ordinary but brave Braddock did against Louis until he got caught in the 6th round....

Remember legendary old opinions from certain posters about how Louis would command the center ring against big beasties like Frazier and Foreman and own them with the jab etc.....But against the 190-195 career pound Braddock he struggled to command the center of the ring for five rounds and was regularly on the end of counter right hands.....Braddock was brave enough to realise that moving backwards was suicidal but he never had any trouble moving forward when the spirit moved him.....Braddock is one of the lesser champions...

Braddock was hurt at the end of the 2nd but he decked Louis in the first with a counter right and Louis legs were on another planet as he arose.....If you gave Braddock all the rounds bar the 2nd until the 6th it wouldn't have been a disgrace....

Easily have been 49-45 (using 10 must) if you liked his work better....

But the fact Braddock could take ring center for much of the early rounds really does make Louis stopping a rampant Frazier and Foreman in their stride look complete folly...

Recognising the fact that he'd lost to Schmelling previously as well.....Said it before the best fighters Louis fought were Charles and Walcott and apart from a gift and a desperate stoppage he was outboxed all three times....Given he was at the end of his career sure but......Conn's boxing lesson hardly gives him much hope against Ali types...

I'd pick Johnson over Louis every day....but it's only my opinion and it is worth diddly do dah...

Fair play to Braddock....I never realised his performance was that decent....

Louis was a slightly odd combination, in the sense that, while his results were an absolute model of consistency, his performances could be anything but. Had a knack of performing much better in rematches, mind you, much like Zoomy Nelson, which is a testament to his ring smarts and cool head.

Widely acknowledged as number two behind Ali all-time, with a reasonably-sized minority even putting him top of the tree, but I doubt many think he's a top two, or even a top five, guy when it comes to a hypothetical round robin or head to head tournament featuring the usual suspects who appear in the all-time great Heavy lists.

88Chris05 wrote:Louis was a slightly odd combination, in the sense that, while his results were an absolute model of consistency, his performances could be anything but. Had a knack of performing much better in rematches, mind you, much like Zoomy Nelson, which is a testament to his ring smarts and cool head.

Widely acknowledged as number two behind Ali all-time, with a reasonably-sized minority even putting him top of the tree, but I doubt many think he's a top two, or even a top five, guy when it comes to a hypothetical round robin or head to head tournament featuring the usual suspects who appear in the all-time great Heavy lists.

https://www.606v2.com/t60153-top-20-alltime-heavyweight-list-based-on-head-to-head

Indeed - I had him at 9 and Truss had him at 11 in this thread.

superflyweight wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Louis was a slightly odd combination, in the sense that, while his results were an absolute model of consistency, his performances could be anything but. Had a knack of performing much better in rematches, mind you, much like Zoomy Nelson, which is a testament to his ring smarts and cool head.

Widely acknowledged as number two behind Ali all-time, with a reasonably-sized minority even putting him top of the tree, but I doubt many think he's a top two, or even a top five, guy when it comes to a hypothetical round robin or head to head tournament featuring the usual suspects who appear in the all-time great Heavy lists.

https://www.606v2.com/t60153-top-20-alltime-heavyweight-list-based-on-head-to-head

Indeed - I had him at 9 and Truss had him at 11 in this thread.  

Not sure about Vitali at 7 Super but we are coming from a similar place.....

I like the Nelson comparison Chris........Certainly watching Nelson's rematches with Azabache and Fenech he was a quick learner..

Sanchez v Nelson 2 would have been nice !!.......Sal's death robbed us of great fights with JC and others....Big loss.

I think I've change my mind on some of these over the years. Frazier would certainly go a bit higher. Don't think he'd do too well against Louis, but I think he beats Vitali and Wlad.

superflyweight wrote:I think I've change my mind on some of these over the years.  Frazier would certainly go a bit higher.  Don't think he'd do too well against Louis, but I think he beats Vitali and Wlad.  

Frazier kills Louis probably in one round.....Louis was ineffective on the back foot and the only fighter that backed Joe up was BIG George and he had left hooks whizzing past his ear hole.....

Little Joe Louis sure isn't doing it............Be like Frazier v Foster..

Personally I wish I'd had Holyfield higher........

All about opinions though...

I'm more in line with Truss on this one, although we all badly misread fights between contemporaries from time to time, never mind hypotheticals between guys from different eras with no common opponents. I could see Frazier beating Louis, but I think he's an underdog against either of the Klitschkos.

Obviously with Wladimir's occasionally shaky chin and less than stellar survival instincts, you could say Frazier's got a puncher's chance.....But Mathis aside (who was carrying a lot of chub on him) he never really knocked out or stopped any genuinely big or heavy guys by the standards of the division.

Frazier's performance against Ali in FOTC was amazing - I can't commend it highly enough. And I guess in theory if he can do that against a guy in Ali who was quicker and tougher than Wlad, he can do it against Wlad as well....I just think Wladimir's additional height, weight, power and spoiling tactics over Ali mean it'd be a bridge too far for Frazier more often than not.

Have said it before (and it's partly the reason I think he's becoming quite overrated as time goes on), but if Wladimir was facing anyone with a semblance of knockout power or explosiveness, you knew he was going to keep it long, jab-jab-right cross-grab, lean and spoil his way through, and muffle the threat in front of him. Unless Frazier gets a referee who doesn't tolerate any of Wlad's leaning and holding, I think he'd be in for a very frustrating night in which he'd lose a decision. Against smaller or shorter guys, Wladimir just knew how to tie up, where to put his hands and all the other annoying bumflufferies which would likely have killed the fight and made it a bore to watch in his favour.

As for Vitali, he made a nice career for himself out of chucking blown-up Cruiserweights around the ring, so Frazier's right up his street! Obviously Frazier brings talent, intensity, good power and durability that the likes of Hide, Gomez, Norris, Adamek etc. didn't, but unlike his brother Vitali won't mind having a scrap with Frazier, had the power to bother Joe himself and his chin, while hard to get to for a lot of smaller guys, tended to hold up when it was checked.

On the other hand I'd see Louis-Frazier as a really hard one to call. Both were prone to starting slowly on occasion, so either of them could potentially blast the other one out in short order. They've both got obvious strengths which would give the other guy issues. On the face of it, Frazier's got his work cut out, trying to pressure and swarm a guy who punches as hard and quickly as Louis....But as Louis himself said when he conceded that Marciano might have beaten him in his prime, just as he did when Louis was over the hill - he didn't like to be crowded. The first Godoy fight, in which he looked pretty basic and poor, is an example of this.

I appreciate that it was disaster when Frazier ran at a similarly awesome puncher in Foreman, but unlike Louis, Foreman also shoved Frazier back repeatedly (and got away with it) to stop him getting him, square him up and make him a sitting duck for his heavy shots. I'm not sure it was in Louis' nature to employ that kind of tactic, or if he had the brute strength of a young Foreman to do it either.

Honestly finding it a hard one to call.....Gun to my head, I'll go with Joe.

Underdog against straight line Wlad ??......He kills both Klits on the same night....

Lewis couldn't miss hitting Vitali's face and big Joe had the best left hook in Heavy history....and he'd have 12 rounds to land it...The big dope couldn't get Chisora out of there !!

As for Wlad he was a straight line spoiler he gets knocked out the moment he throws the jab and tries to hold in a straight line....I knew Sanders would destroy him because he punched straight and Wlad spoils in a straight line (he looked pathetic and got bro to sort him out).......Bruno would have destroyed Wlad with his jab straight right..

Wlad beat stiffs......

I think you’re giving Wlad a bit of a raw deal here. He did beat Haye who was supposed to knock him out in 5 rounds and beat game guys like Peter, where he took a few big hits and found a way to win (first time). I think Sanders (rip) had very fast hands for a big guy and would have given most heavies trouble, but Bruno beating Wlad? I’m not sure at all about that. Bruno beat stiffs too and lost to any decent fighter with a punch and with his slow, robotic style I don’t see him beating Wlad. If a limited Bonecrusher could smack out Bruno I’m not convinced Wlad couldn’t do the same.

If you watch the old tapes Wlad fights very much like Jack Johnson......Jab-smother...jab-right-smother......Difference is Johnson used angles and noticeably Johnson and Wlad struggled against bigger foe like Willard and Fury because they couldn't smother bigger Men...

Problem for Wlad's straight line spoiling is if you get someone like Sanders who is a hard one-two puncher then he's screwed in a way Jack Johnson wouldn't be....

Sanders v Klit was humiliating and he'd get squashed everytime....

The two klits were products of their time....Slob destroyers....and it's embarrassing having to get your brother to sort someone out..

Vitali got his face mashed by an old and worn out Lewis who trained for someone else...

it was Lewis last fight he lacked ambition...was past it and still won.

I must admit that it’s with Joe Louis that I have the biggest problem with established thought and his ranking in the ‘all time’. Definitely of the opinion that we should not be ranking factors such as “ cultural significance” when assessing greatness in boxers. It’s there that Louis shines, of course, and notoriously Bert Sugar ranked him at the very top, and probably all of us have seen the footage of Ali and Cus with Cus informing him that Joe would have caught up with him at some point.

Again there are some intriguing possibilities here, eg Cooper could catch (admittedly younger version of ) Ali, then he could be caught just the same as any other boxer. Sometimes I think we forget that even our favourite fighters were blindsided on occasion. That’s why I do think people are a little unfair on Lennox Lewis with this regard.

I certainly do think that Joe could have delivered a howler of a shot to Ali in exactly what Frazier did in FOTC, for example.I just don’t see his short bursts workload being successful. I guess pitting Ali against Louis is a good barometer of how they would pan out whilst both fighting the most difficult opposition. After mulling that particular one over for longer than I care to admit I still have Ali all the way with Louis not getting that much of an opportunity to shine and with his best efforts coped with.

Joe gets ranked low in the top ten for me also. But then so does Marciano and that’s a less popular opinion if I sense the prevailing wind on him correctly!

Marciano has become a bit of a poster boy for the MAGA contingent, criticise him in any way and you'll have swarms of cretins informing you that he's the toughest, biggest hitting heavyweight in history. Don't bother mentioning that he was a 188lb man who mainly feasted on ageing former greats coming to the end of the their careers or that Archie Moore dropped him. In reality he was good for his time but little more than that; there are very few heavyweight champions that came after he'd have much chance against, Johansson and maybe Floyd Patterson but he'd get flattened with regularity from Liston onwards.

Louis ranks highly in a historical sense but in fantastical head to heads don't think he does that well; Frazier; Holyfield and Spinks are the guys he'd have the best chance against and i'm basing that purely on natural size.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you watch the old tapes Wlad fights very much like Jack Johnson......Jab-smother...jab-right-smother......Difference is Johnson used angles and noticeably Johnson and Wlad struggled against bigger foe like Willard and Fury because they couldn't smother bigger Men...

Problem for Wlad's straight line spoiling is if you get someone like Sanders who is a hard one-two puncher then he's screwed in a way Jack Johnson wouldn't be....

Sanders v Klit was humiliating and he'd get squashed everytime....

The two klits were products of their time....Slob destroyers....and it's embarrassing having to get your brother to sort someone out..

Vitali got his face mashed by an old and worn out Lewis who trained for someone else...

it was Lewis last fight he lacked ambition...was past it and still won.

You’re not adding context to the Lewis/Vitali fight though.  In the aftermath it was seen as a very good effort by the Ukrainian that, despite defeat would elevate his status.  Also, despite a supposedly out if condition Lewis, I rate him possibly in my top 3 ever heavyweights in terms of who beats who.  Other than say Ali or a very peak Tyson, I don’t see anyone beating Lewis.  

As for Bruno, wasn’t Haye about the same size as him only more naturally athletic, perhaps with slightly less power?  No saying Wlad couldn’t have manhandled Bruno in the same way.  I get it with the straight one twos but Bruno didn’t have the fastest hands.
Thing is “Big Frank” came in an era where 6ft 3 was considered big but against the mobile giants of the 21st century I’m not sure how well he does.

As ridiculed as K-bros often are, I think they deserve credit for tidying up the division, even if it had to be a two way split.  In 2006 there were champions in Rahman and 3 Eastern Europeans I can’t remember the names of, holding the belts, so give some credit that they cleaned the house a bit.

Mochyn du wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you watch the old tapes Wlad fights very much like Jack Johnson......Jab-smother...jab-right-smother......Difference is Johnson used angles and noticeably Johnson and Wlad struggled against bigger foe like Willard and Fury because they couldn't smother bigger Men...

Problem for Wlad's straight line spoiling is if you get someone like Sanders who is a hard one-two puncher then he's screwed in a way Jack Johnson wouldn't be....

Sanders v Klit was humiliating and he'd get squashed everytime....

The two klits were products of their time....Slob destroyers....and it's embarrassing having to get your brother to sort someone out..

Vitali got his face mashed by an old and worn out Lewis who trained for someone else...

it was Lewis last fight he lacked ambition...was past it and still won.

You’re not adding context to the Lewis/Vitali fight though.  In the aftermath it was seen as a very good effort by the Ukrainian that, despite defeat would elevate his status.  Also, despite a supposedly out if condition Lewis, I rate him possibly in my top 3 ever heavyweights in terms of who beats who.  Other than say Ali or a very peak Tyson, I don’t see anyone beating Lewis.  

As for Bruno, wasn’t Haye about the same size as him only more naturally athletic, perhaps with slightly less power?  No saying Wlad couldn’t have manhandled Bruno in the same way.  I get it with the straight one twos but Bruno didn’t have the fastest hands.
Thing is “Big Frank” came in an era where 6ft 3 was considered big but against the mobile giants of the 21st century I’m not sure how well he does.

As ridiculed as K-bros often are, I think they deserve credit for tidying up the division, even if it had to be a two way split.  In 2006 there were champions in Rahman and 3 Eastern Europeans I can’t remember the names of, holding the belts, so give some credit that they cleaned the house a bit.

I'm sure it did elevate Vitali's status just as an old Hagler added to John Mugabi's......You say Lewis is in your top 3 Heavies and Bruno wasn't that fast...So the fact Bruno outscored Lewis with his hard straight jab for four rounds whilst backing him up must be impressive to you..

Bruno probably wins that fight if he had a tank..

Four rounds of straght punching however would be more than enough for a chinny straight line mauler like Wlad....

Vitali well he could outlast Frank....

Yeah remember Frank doing well against Lewis but I always got the impression that Lewis was more irritated than in trouble in that fight. Lewis could be sloppy but had an extra gear when he needed it and obviously when Bruno got tagged he had a strange habit of just standing there and taking further punishment.

I think with Wlad he was as good as he needed to be.

Marciano is one of the sport's most enduring icons and one of a relatively few figures within the sport who was / is genuinely world renowned, and those kind of figures do tend to get a little more protection from scrutiny than others, or have their abilities blown out of proportion a little, particularly by the mainstream. That said, he's no different to any of Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, La Motta, Robinson, Ali, Tyson or Mayweather in that respect. If anything, I'd say he gets a little less protection than some of the names I've mentioned there.

These days world champions retiring with no losses is no great shakes and not necessarily a cause for great surprise. Back in Marciano's day is was almost unthinkable, so naturally the magic or aura around his '0' proved hard to resist for a long time.

It's been a while since I really looked at any fan or pundits lists in detail, but if we provide the 'Can only beat who's there' and 'Can only judge from within a fighter's own era', then Marciano should still command a rank as a great Heavyweight champion. Just not a contender to be up there as one of THE greatest.

Rocky pretty much cleaned house. Valdes is always painted as his bogeyman, the guy he or Al Weill wanted no part of, but that whole view seems to rest solely upon the fact that Valdes was a big Heavyweight for his time. That didn't prevent him from losing to smaller fighters who were inferior Heavies than Marciano, and even at the time Valdes had a reputation as a bit of a stinker who froze up and fought insipidly against anyone of a high rank.

Did he see Liston, Machen, Williams and Folley emerging on the horizon and decide to swerve it? Yeah, maybe. But by the standards of the day Marciano was no spring chicken by 1956 and his career had been a punishing one. No doubts that he was the right man in the right place at the right time, but so have a few other people been, and they still didn't manage to cash in on it the way Marciano did.

That said.... I'm still uneasy when I see people rating him ahead of Frazier (in particular) and maybe Holyfield too, while we're on the subject of the smaller Heavyweights, albeit even they had a decent size advantage over Marciano in their own ways.

88Chris05 wrote:Marciano is one of the sport's most enduring icons and one of a relatively few figures within the sport who was / is genuinely world renowned, and those kind of figures do tend to get a little more protection from scrutiny than others, or have their abilities blown out of proportion a little, particularly by the mainstream. That said, he's no different to any of Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, La Motta, Robinson, Ali, Tyson or Mayweather in that respect. If anything, I'd say he gets a little less protection than some of the names I've mentioned there.

These days world champions retiring with no losses is no great shakes and not necessarily a cause for great surprise. Back in Marciano's day is was almost unthinkable, so naturally the magic or aura around his '0' proved hard to resist for a long time.

It's been a while since I really looked at any fan or pundits lists in detail, but if we provide the 'Can only beat who's there' and 'Can only judge from within a fighter's own era', then Marciano should still command a rank as a great Heavyweight champion. Just not a contender to be up there as one of THE greatest.

Rocky pretty much cleaned house. Valdes is always painted as his bogeyman, the guy he or Al Weill wanted no part of, but that whole view seems to rest solely upon the fact that Valdes was a big Heavyweight for his time. That didn't prevent him from losing to smaller fighters who were inferior Heavies than Marciano, and even at the time Valdes had a reputation as a bit of a stinker who froze up and fought insipidly against anyone of a high rank.

Did he see Liston, Machen, Williams and Folley emerging on the horizon and decide to swerve it? Yeah, maybe. But by the standards of the day Marciano was no spring chicken by 1956 and his career had been a punishing one. No doubts that he was the right man in the right place at the right time, but so have a few other people been, and they still didn't manage to cash in on it the way Marciano did.

That said.... I'm still uneasy when I see people rating him ahead of Frazier (in particular) and maybe Holyfield too, while we're on the subject of the smaller Heavyweights, albeit even they had a decent size advantage over Marciano in their own ways.

Heavyweights retiring undefeated is a great shake and the Heavy division is different to all the others (Because he is the Man)......Can't think of any other Heavyweight champion who retired undefeated.....Tunney lost prior to his arrival..

I have Marciano above Frazier..........Because Walcott twice and Charles twice are top wins and he cleaned out the division......Granted Frazier isn't far behind.....But like Holy with Bowe his one great win with Ali was cancelled out..Although Ellis, Quarry and others are enough for top 12......also his flop against Foreman showing his weakness being shoved back though in fairness Foreman had the power to capitalise unlike Vitali who sooner or later eats a hook....

I have Tyson higher than most for his ability to clear house......But in fantasy matchups I agree with Soul........Rocky gets walloped in many.

We see what we see and I wouldn't argue too much either way.

Some archive reports of The Rock’s fights with LaStarza and Tiger Lowry are in Everett M. Skehan‘s book on him. Very, very  stinky shenanigans kept his unbeaten record. And without that record, his mythos really suffers. Can’t put him in the top half of the Top Ten,myself, but have no issues with him being there. Have always been of the opinion that he would have been carved up by Johnson, Holmes, or even Carl “The Truth” Williams. However there’s always the caveat that he “found a way”. It should be noted that over a twelve rounder, as opposed to fifteen, his chances also diminish.

I don’t think he was aware of Liston on the horizon. He was however very tempted to return to the ring with his successors Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansson whom he thought were not up to par. He trained so hard that he was dog-tired of the whole game and couldn’t wait to give it all up however-he knew the game was up.

Also interesting is that Rock told his friend, after the computer-box fiasco for which he sparred Ali, that he did not think he would beat Ali. However, Ali also expressed reservations that he would have it all his own way too, so he must have seen (and felt) enough to have been so uncharacteristically humble.

Derek Smalls wrote:Some archive reports of The Rock’s fights with LaStarza and Tiger Lowry are in Everett M. Skehan‘s book on him. Very, very  stinky shenanigans kept his unbeaten record. And without that record, his mythos really suffers. Can’t put him in the top half of the Top Ten,myself, but have no issues with him being there. Have always been of the opinion that he would have been carved up by Johnson, Holmes, or even Carl “The Truth” Williams. However there’s always the caveat that he “found a way”. It should be noted that over a twelve rounder, as opposed to fifteen, his chances also diminish.

I don’t think he was aware of Liston on the horizon. He was however very tempted to return to the ring with his successors Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansson whom he thought were not up to par. He trained so hard that he was dog-tired of the whole game and couldn’t wait to give it all up however-he knew the game was up.

Also interesting is that Rock told his friend, after the computer-box fiasco for which he sparred Ali, that he did not think he would beat Ali. However, Ali also expressed reservations that he would have it all his own way too, so he must have seen (and felt) enough to have been so uncharacteristically humble.

As far as i'm aware he was tempted into returning when Johansson beat Patterson but had no interest in fighting Floyd.

The unbeaten record is what it is but I can't agree with Truss that Walcott and Charles are top wins at all; both years past their bests and in the case of Charles outside of his best weight class. For context we don't consider Bob Foster a particularly meaningful win for either Frazier or Ali.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Derek Smalls wrote:Some archive reports of The Rock’s fights with LaStarza and Tiger Lowry are in Everett M. Skehan‘s book on him. Very, very  stinky shenanigans kept his unbeaten record. And without that record, his mythos really suffers. Can’t put him in the top half of the Top Ten,myself, but have no issues with him being there. Have always been of the opinion that he would have been carved up by Johnson, Holmes, or even Carl “The Truth” Williams. However there’s always the caveat that he “found a way”. It should be noted that over a twelve rounder, as opposed to fifteen, his chances also diminish.

I don’t think he was aware of Liston on the horizon. He was however very tempted to return to the ring with his successors Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansson whom he thought were not up to par. He trained so hard that he was dog-tired of the whole game and couldn’t wait to give it all up however-he knew the game was up.

Also interesting is that Rock told his friend, after the computer-box fiasco for which he sparred Ali, that he did not think he would beat Ali. However, Ali also expressed reservations that he would have it all his own way too, so he must have seen (and felt) enough to have been so uncharacteristically humble.

As far as i'm aware he was tempted into returning when Johansson beat Patterson but had no interest in fighting Floyd.

The unbeaten record is what it is but I can't agree with Truss that Walcott and Charles are top wins at all; both years past their bests and in the case of Charles outside of his best weight class. For context we don't consider Bob Foster a particularly meaningful win for either Frazier or Ali.

I guess you don't have Lewis that high considering Tyson and Holy were both soiled when Lewis fought them and he was 1-1 with Rahman and McCall..

As for the outside his best weight class stuff.......Doesn't really apply to Marciano v Charles........187 v 185.....You could say Marciano was an overgrown light heavy..

Foster v Ali and Frazier is different....

Tyson and Holyfield are on a slightly different level to Walcott and Charles as heavyweights so not a particularly great comparison and doesn't take into account their overall careers, I tend to give Lewis credit for Holyfield but next to none for Tyson anyway. Marciano was 7-0 in title fights, Lewis was 15-2-1, gives an indication of the overall quality they fought.

At any other weight I might agree with you but not at heavyweight; Charles was a former middleweight who moved up to heavyweight whereas Marciano was a naturally much bigger man, all you have to do is look at their lower body build to know who the then true heavyweight was.

Soul Requiem wrote:Tyson and Holyfield are on a slightly different level to Walcott and Charles as heavyweights so not a particularly great comparison and doesn't take into account their overall careers, I tend to give Lewis credit for Holyfield but next to none for Tyson anyway. Marciano was 7-0 in title fights, Lewis was 15-2-1, gives an indication of the overall quality they fought.

At any other weight I might agree with you but not at heavyweight; Charles was a former middleweight who moved up to heavyweight whereas Marciano was a naturally much bigger man, all you have to do is look at their lower body build to know who the then true heavyweight was.

Quite a few historians have Charles higher than Holyfield and Tyson so I refute your bad comparison.....I know Bert Sugar has him above Tyson and Holy for one....But I'm not Hazharrison so I accept your points in good grace...

I don't think Holy ever stopped anybody after Tyson ??......Chuck in Moorer and he really wasn't near prime either.........Tyson was done...

Like I say Rocky was scantily heavier than Charles in all reality..Weighed 185 regularly and maybe could have boiled down further and Charles still had life in him as did Walcott who bottled the second fight..

I have more respect for Marciano than you.....but that's okay..

I don't really care for Bert Sugars opinion, tends to be far too weighted in favour of older fighters; Tyson and Holyfield as heavyweights are head and shoulders above Charles. In a pound for pound sense that balance then switches completely but that's not really the issue here.

Holyfield had what four stoppage wins in title fights? He was a decent puncher at heavyweight but I don't think you could say he cracked any decent chins at the weight.

What Marciano and Charles weighed when they fought is only a small part of it, how they got to that weight is probably more important; Charles had to bulk whereas Marciano boiled down, Rocky walked around at around 220lbs but felt his stamina improved carrying less weight.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Derek Smalls wrote:Some archive reports of The Rock’s fights with LaStarza and Tiger Lowry are in Everett M. Skehan‘s book on him. Very, very  stinky shenanigans kept his unbeaten record. And without that record, his mythos really suffers. Can’t put him in the top half of the Top Ten,myself, but have no issues with him being there. Have always been of the opinion that he would have been carved up by Johnson, Holmes, or even Carl “The Truth” Williams. However there’s always the caveat that he “found a way”. It should be noted that over a twelve rounder, as opposed to fifteen, his chances also diminish.

I don’t think he was aware of Liston on the horizon. He was however very tempted to return to the ring with his successors Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansson whom he thought were not up to par. He trained so hard that he was dog-tired of the whole game and couldn’t wait to give it all up however-he knew the game was up.

Also interesting is that Rock told his friend, after the computer-box fiasco for which he sparred Ali, that he did not think he would beat Ali. However, Ali also expressed reservations that he would have it all his own way too, so he must have seen (and felt) enough to have been so uncharacteristically humble.

As far as i'm aware he was tempted into returning when Johansson beat Patterson but had no interest in fighting Floyd.

The unbeaten record is what it is but I can't agree with Truss that Walcott and Charles are top wins at all; both years past their bests and in the case of Charles outside of his best weight class. For context we don't consider Bob Foster a particularly meaningful win for either Frazier or Ali.

Good spot ,Soul, it was only when Ingemar was champ. His words were to the effect of, This guy (Johannson) doesn’t want to fight. Exactly the same as Foreman’s when he saw Moorer was champ.
Now, Marciano v Patterson, that would have been interesting.

Bert Sugar getting mentioned a lot, his ranking of heavies was definitely off, but his “100 Years of Boxing” is a must-read. I saw footage of Iron Mike leafing through it actually…very easy to read and great archive pictures.