This weekends Euro Games

First topic message reminder :

Just watching the Gloucester v Ospreys game...and the chat after on TNT

Is it me or is Dallaglio really agitated..? Foot tapping, constant motion, actually quite irritating to watch...

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Defo a very long ban imo.

I have seen a few comments saying that if you want a home ties in the Investec Cup, you just need to win all your games. have those people looked at the tables, Saints did win all their games, what they mean is win all there games and score 4 tries in each one, it is the bonus points that dictate where you rank.

I thought the stadiums put forward by the English were a bit disappointing, Stadium MK (Milton Keynes Dons) capacity circa 30k. Ashton Gate Bristol circa 27k. Alongside the others, they are 2nd rate and not even rugby stadiums. Saints used to play their European games at MK when there ground was considered too small, no atmosphere at all.

Tigers have played their games at Walkers/King Power and Notts Forest ground previously as both are just over 30k. Welford Road is the biggest specifically club rugby ground in the country at just shy of 26k capacity. Ashton Gate is slightly bigger but shared between football and rugby (same owner).

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

I actually think what Leinster have done is show smaller nations how to compete with the juggernaut that is French rugby.  

And how exactly are they supposed to do that?

Improve player pathways and academies so you dont have to rely heavily on the transfer market for players.  In theory England has a much larger population by a substantial amount over Ireland so having options at youth and finding talent shouldnt be a problem.

.

Italy should be dominating the sport then.

As I pointed out in the same section as that quote. Italy have a similar problem to England. Football is very dominant there as most played sport.

What I will say Italy has been on a very long plan to develop pathways. I believe (but dont quote me on this) they brought in the same guys to setup academies that originally was involved with Leinster. Now it will take a while before we actually see the fruits to that labor as it takes a long time to bring through but we are already seeing a major improvement to the talent coming through for Italy at age grade. In 10 years from now Benetton could be Italy's version of Leinster. To be fair to them they are not a bad side at the minute but it will take a while before they get to Leinster status.

I'd like to point out the Leinster of today didn't simply start out this way. They have taken over 10 years to build this dynasty.

Also it's not a given Leinster will stay there either. Money only really plays a part in terms of keeping players at a squad level. Essentially talent is variable. Leinster for example has a golden generation of in form players. But next generations of Irish players may or may not be as good. Money won't change that and it's also what makes sport great. Nobody really knows what teams will or will not be dominant in years to come.

But I will say short term thinking on squad investments rarely pay off and if they do then you will always be behind the TOP14 who's squads budgets are pulling away from everyone else.

I will say Northampton are doing a pretty good job with their academy already. Some excellent young talent coming through there at the moment.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Defo a very long ban imo.

I have seen a few comments saying that if you want a home ties in the Investec Cup, you just need to win all your games. have those people looked at the tables, Saints did win all their games, what they mean is win all there games and score 4 tries in each one, it is the bonus points that dictate where you rank.

I thought the stadiums put forward by the English were a bit disappointing, Stadium MK (Milton Keynes Dons) capacity circa 30k. Ashton Gate Bristol circa 27k. Alongside the others, they are 2nd rate and not even rugby stadiums. Saints used to play their European games at MK when there ground was considered too small, no atmosphere at all.

Absolutely if you win all your games and so does another team does too the fair way to decide between the two is obviously points difference or tries scored or bonus points etc. rather than a pre determined ERC decision. Remember all you English fans calling for a merit based tournament?

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

I actually think what Leinster have done is show smaller nations how to compete with the juggernaut that is French rugby.  

And how exactly are they supposed to do that?

Improve player pathways and academies so you dont have to rely heavily on the transfer market for players.  In theory England has a much larger population by a substantial amount over Ireland so having options at youth and finding talent shouldnt be a problem.

.

Italy should be dominating the sport then.

As I pointed out in the same section as that quote.  Italy have a similar problem to England.  Football is very dominant there as most played sport.

What I will say Italy has been on a very long plan to develop pathways. I believe (but dont quote me on this) they brought in the same guys to setup academies that originally was involved with Leinster.  Now it will take a while before we actually see the fruits to that labor as it takes a long time to bring through but we are already seeing a major improvement to the talent coming through for Italy at age grade.  In 10 years from now Benetton could be Italy's version of Leinster.  To be fair to them they are not a bad side at the minute but it will take a while before they get to Leinster status.

I'd like to point out the Leinster of today didn't simply start out this way.  They have taken over 10 years to build this dynasty.

They hired Stephen Aboud yeah, but he left the Italian setup in 2022 I think. He was then hired by the Canadian union, I'm not sure if he's still there or not.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

I actually think what Leinster have done is show smaller nations how to compete with the juggernaut that is French rugby.  

And how exactly are they supposed to do that?

Improve player pathways and academies so you dont have to rely heavily on the transfer market for players.  In theory England has a much larger population by a substantial amount over Ireland so having options at youth and finding talent shouldnt be a problem.

.

Italy should be dominating the sport then.

Do they have that many registered players? I don't think so. In recent years they have grown the game amongst juniors, and as a result have improved at all levels. England have lots of talent, it is evident from the consistency and success they have at U18 and U20 level. This can translate to club when that team has a lot of internationals, Saracens and Leicester in the past. It's probably Northampton's turn next.

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

I actually think what Leinster have done is show smaller nations how to compete with the juggernaut that is French rugby.  

And how exactly are they supposed to do that?

Improve player pathways and academies so you dont have to rely heavily on the transfer market for players.  In theory England has a much larger population by a substantial amount over Ireland so having options at youth and finding talent shouldnt be a problem.

.

Italy should be dominating the sport then.

As I pointed out in the same section as that quote.  Italy have a similar problem to England.  Football is very dominant there as most played sport.

What I will say Italy has been on a very long plan to develop pathways. I believe (but dont quote me on this) they brought in the same guys to setup academies that originally was involved with Leinster.  Now it will take a while before we actually see the fruits to that labor as it takes a long time to bring through but we are already seeing a major improvement to the talent coming through for Italy at age grade.  In 10 years from now Benetton could be Italy's version of Leinster.  To be fair to them they are not a bad side at the minute but it will take a while before they get to Leinster status.

I'd like to point out the Leinster of today didn't simply start out this way.  They have taken over 10 years to build this dynasty.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland will lose athletes and interest towards premier league football too. Italy's issue was what tier they were previously in. You're right, it'll take a while to see the fruits of their labour and they've been much better than Wales at getting their house in order in recent years.

Leinster were always a strong team, but now they're lightyears ahead of most. Correct, that did take very long time to attain but once they got there they've remained at that level. I think Leinster get unfairly criticised for things they're doing well.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

I actually think what Leinster have done is show smaller nations how to compete with the juggernaut that is French rugby.  

And how exactly are they supposed to do that?

Improve player pathways and academies so you dont have to rely heavily on the transfer market for players.  In theory England has a much larger population by a substantial amount over Ireland so having options at youth and finding talent shouldnt be a problem.

.

Italy should be dominating the sport then.

As I pointed out in the same section as that quote.  Italy have a similar problem to England.  Football is very dominant there as most played sport.

What I will say Italy has been on a very long plan to develop pathways. I believe (but dont quote me on this) they brought in the same guys to setup academies that originally was involved with Leinster.  Now it will take a while before we actually see the fruits to that labor as it takes a long time to bring through but we are already seeing a major improvement to the talent coming through for Italy at age grade.  In 10 years from now Benetton could be Italy's version of Leinster.  To be fair to them they are not a bad side at the minute but it will take a while before they get to Leinster status.

I'd like to point out the Leinster of today didn't simply start out this way.  They have taken over 10 years to build this dynasty.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland will lose athletes and interest towards premier league football too. Italy's issue was what tier they were previously in. You're right, it'll take a while to see the fruits of their labour and they've been much better than Wales at getting their house in order in recent years.

Leinster were always a strong team, but now they're lightyears ahead of most. Correct, that did take very long time to attain but once they got there they've remained at that level. I think Leinster get unfairly criticised for things they're doing well.

I don't think we can maintain this level forever, it's almost impossible to continously produce world class talent from within year on year. Just look at what the Crusaders are going through now, these things go in cycles.

I think that's true LF4L, as I don't see anyone coming through that can 'replace' Porter and Furlong, and the next 9. They look well covered everywhere else. Perhaps Snyman and Tupou being available for a few seasons will help negate that. I also think maybe in another season or 2, the rest of the URC will have caught up to their 2nd string which means Leinster would be playing their top team more often and may get more injuries, etc.

'saders and ABs probably won't be as good as we expect for a few more seasons. They don't have good enough lock and fly-half replacements. They'll likely beat up most teams, just not Ire, Fra or SA.

Welshmushroom wrote:
But I will say short term thinking on squad investments rarely pay off and if they do then you will always be behind the TOP14 who's squads budgets are pulling away from everyone else.  

.

Hiw are they pulling away from everyone else's when they have a salary cap?

Welshmushroom wrote:  In 10 years from now Benetton could be Italy's version of Leinster.  

Aren't Benetton Rygby privately owned?

mikey_dragon wrote:I think that's true LF4L, as I don't see anyone coming through that can 'replace' Porter and Furlong, and the next 9..

But that's when they gerrymander and their owners can manipulate the market take those guys from their other 3 teams. Just look at what they did with Snyman.

It's anti-sport and would not happen in any other profesisonal sport. Rugby Union is a joke. I've told people that don't follow it this and they refuse to believe me it's such a ludicrous thing to happen.

No player, under contract, has left Ulster for Leinster since 2010.
No player, under contract, has left Leinster for Ulster since 2018 and the player in question initiated that move.

Equally if you look at the net movement of players overwhelmingly it is Leinster player moving away
to Munster and Connacht that dominates.

Yeah I think if they did it under contract there would be riots.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Yeah I think if they did it under contract there would be riots.

The point being made is that the IRFU don't gerrymander anything for Leinster. Leinster have absolutely maximised what they have available to them, and a repercussion of that is they have more central contracts, therefore more available money to bring in one or two truly world class players like RG and Jordi Barrett.

It's not the IRFU funneling the best players to Leinster, it's just the best players are being produced IN Leinster.

Also you asked about how the top 14 can pull away with a salary cap well in my mind it's due to several factors, municipal stadium, very good pathways, huge national interest in the sport, which inturn brings in huge crowds and TV deals and sponsorship. Even the leagues below the top14 get very good crowds.
They may be up against football but not in the same way Britain and Ireland are

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

I actually think what Leinster have done is show smaller nations how to compete with the juggernaut that is French rugby.  

And how exactly are they supposed to do that?

Improve player pathways and academies so you dont have to rely heavily on the transfer market for players.  In theory England has a much larger population by a substantial amount over Ireland so having options at youth and finding talent shouldnt be a problem.

.

Italy should be dominating the sport then.

As I pointed out in the same section as that quote.  Italy have a similar problem to England.  Football is very dominant there as most played sport.

What I will say Italy has been on a very long plan to develop pathways. I believe (but dont quote me on this) they brought in the same guys to setup academies that originally was involved with Leinster.  Now it will take a while before we actually see the fruits to that labor as it takes a long time to bring through but we are already seeing a major improvement to the talent coming through for Italy at age grade.  In 10 years from now Benetton could be Italy's version of Leinster.  To be fair to them they are not a bad side at the minute but it will take a while before they get to Leinster status.

I'd like to point out the Leinster of today didn't simply start out this way.  They have taken over 10 years to build this dynasty.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland will lose athletes and interest towards premier league football too. Italy's issue was what tier they were previously in. You're right, it'll take a while to see the fruits of their labour and they've been much better than Wales at getting their house in order in recent years.

Leinster were always a strong team, but now they're lightyears ahead of most. Correct, that did take very long time to attain but once they got there they've remained at that level. I think Leinster get unfairly criticised for things they're doing well.

I don't think we can maintain this level forever, it's almost impossible to continously produce world class talent from within year on year. Just look at what the Crusaders are going through now, these things go in cycles.

It's already starting with the lack of props coming through to challenge Porter and Furlong. No 9 challenging JGP.

Leinster have the financial means to weather those particular dry spells though, Tupou will be a handy sticking plaster for the issues at tighthead. JGP and Lowe aren't exactly natives but have been incredible servants. The Crusaders don't have anything like that spending power so are stuck trying to rebuild from what they can develop.

On the BBC podcast, Chris Jones is unhappy with one of the semi-final venues.

For him, Toulouse should not be playing in their home city, given the availability of other stadia in France. He's Ok with Dublin, because of the absence of suitable alternatives.

Rugby Fan wrote:On the BBC podcast, Chris Jones is unhappy with one of the semi-final venues.

For him, Toulouse should not be playing in their home city, given the availability of other stadia in France. He's Ok with Dublin, because of the absence of suitable alternatives.

I quite liked Ugo’s idea in the same pod - announce a host city for the semi finals at the start of the tournament, and play both matches there over a weekend. Fair to everyone, and allows time to plan.

The other changes I’d make for next year would be: 1) higher seeded teams host the lowest seeded available team from outside their group in R16/QFs, rather than just the lowest seeded team; 2) QFs are more than a week after R16

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:
But I will say short term thinking on squad investments rarely pay off and if they do then you will always be behind the TOP14 who's squads budgets are pulling away from everyone else.  

.

Hiw are they pulling away from everyone else's when they have a salary cap?

They keep raising the salary cap. If their turnover keeps going up they will keep adjusting their salary caps. I believe it's going up again in the 24/25 season.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:On the BBC podcast, Chris Jones is unhappy with one of the semi-final venues.

For him, Toulouse should not be playing in their home city, given the availability of other stadia in France. He's Ok with Dublin, because of the absence of suitable alternatives.

I quite liked Ugo’s idea in the same pod - announce a host city for the semi finals at the start of the tournament, and play both matches there over a weekend. Fair to everyone, and allows time to plan.

The other changes I’d make for next year would be: 1) higher seeded teams host the lowest seeded available team from outside their group in R16/QFs, rather than just the lowest seeded team; 2) QFs are more than a week after R16

No chance I would agree it would be fair given the ERCs habit of picking English and French host cities. Dont trust them at all on their venue selection. The only "fair" way is to earn the right to host the match through results. ERC selection the best way to guarentee it isnt fair when money and bribes come into the equation.

Leinster just signed Jordie Barrett.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:On the BBC podcast, Chris Jones is unhappy with one of the semi-final venues.

For him, Toulouse should not be playing in their home city, given the availability of other stadia in France. He's Ok with Dublin, because of the absence of suitable alternatives.

I quite liked Ugo’s idea in the same pod - announce a host city for the semi finals at the start of the tournament, and play both matches there over a weekend. Fair to everyone, and allows time to plan.

The other changes I’d make for next year would be: 1) higher seeded teams host the lowest seeded available team from outside their group in R16/QFs, rather than just the lowest seeded team; 2) QFs are more than a week after R16

No chance I would agree it would be fair given the ERCs habit of picking English and French host cities. Dont trust them at all on their venue selection. The only "fair" way is to earn the right to host the match through results. ERC selection the best way to guarentee it isnt fair when money and bribes come into the equation.

If you had host cities for Champions Cup semi finals, the other European Cup semi final and then for a combined finals weekend that would be three host cities and means you could spread it around a lot easier across three cities each year.

Welshmushroom wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:
But I will say short term thinking on squad investments rarely pay off and if they do then you will always be behind the TOP14 who's squads budgets are pulling away from everyone else.  

.

Hiw are they pulling away from everyone else's when they have a salary cap?

They keep raising the salary cap.  If their turnover keeps going up they will keep adjusting their salary caps.  I believe it's going up again in the 24/25 season.

Can you give me a quick run down on how much the French salary cap is increasing. Because last I heard, LNR were dropping the salary cap by 12 per cent, from €11.3 million to €9.94 million over the span of several years from 2022.

Thanks.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:On the BBC podcast, Chris Jones is unhappy with one of the semi-final venues.

For him, Toulouse should not be playing in their home city, given the availability of other stadia in France. He's Ok with Dublin, because of the absence of suitable alternatives.

I quite liked Ugo’s idea in the same pod - announce a host city for the semi finals at the start of the tournament, and play both matches there over a weekend. Fair to everyone, and allows time to plan.

The other changes I’d make for next year would be: 1) higher seeded teams host the lowest seeded available team from outside their group in R16/QFs, rather than just the lowest seeded team; 2) QFs are more than a week after R16

No chance I would agree it would be fair given the ERCs habit of picking English and French host cities. Dont trust them at all on their venue selection. The only "fair" way is to earn the right to host the match through results. ERC selection the best way to guarentee it isnt fair when money and bribes come into the equation.

If you had host cities for Champions Cup semi finals, the other European Cup semi final and then for a combined finals weekend that would be three host cities and means you could spread it around a lot easier across three cities each year.

You could but why would I trust the ERC when their allocation of finals to date reeks of favouritism, its a solution to a problem that doesnt exist anyway in my view. Id much rather top seeds earn home semis than pre selected semis that could end up favouring bottom seeds.

The issue I have of using points scored or bonus points to decide the seeding is that some clubs (not Leinster) play their rugby in far better weather than others, they are going to pick up more bonus points than the teams that have to slug it out in the mud and rain where matches are usually lower scoring i.e. no 4 try bonus points, likewise the warm weather teams will score more points. The percentage differential should be the same, but the amount of points they win by will be greater.

The stadiums that the semi's are supposed to be played in are stadiums within the country of the qualifying club, not in the back yard of the club, both the games are being played not in the back yard but the living rooms of the club. It needs sorting out to take away the advantage of a home game.

Croke Park nearly sold out in two days and Toulouse Harlequins sold out in 20 minutes. That's pretty impressive.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Croke Park nearly sold out in two days and Toulouse Harlequins sold out in 20 minutes. That's pretty impressive.

Not sure they opened the upper tier for Croke park did they?

Collapse2005 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Croke Park nearly sold out in two days and Toulouse Harlequins sold out in 20 minutes. That's pretty impressive.

Not sure they opened the upper tier for Croke park did they?

Yup, 82k tickets sold.

Thats some going

It's hard to believe that the final is clashing with both the FA cup final and Scottish cup final. Our show piece event will be watched by just the die hards unfortunately.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's hard to believe that the final is clashing with both the FA cup final and Scottish cup final. Our show piece event will be watched by just the die hards unfortunately.

That's horrible planning. [Takes careful aim; shoots both of own feet]

Poorfour wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's hard to believe that the final is clashing with both the FA cup final and Scottish cup final. Our show piece event will be watched by just the die hards unfortunately.

That's horrible planning. [Takes careful aim; shoots both of own feet]

A little unlucky with the FA cup final being moved but yeah yet more bad playing by the EPCR. They can't catch a break lately.