Northampton Saints 2024-25

Re: England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes
Post by formerly known as Sam Today at 7:31 am

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Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Joe Marchant is 28 himself. He'll be 31/32 by the next world cup, not like he's a long term option, particularly as he's away from the side over in France.

There's lots of questions. Northmore isn't like Slade, he has nowhere close to the all round game. He's big and quick though will he be playing 12 moving forward as Quins need an Andre replacement. Having toured in the squad he's got a good shout for getting a shot.

Litchfield looks a poor man's Lawrence currently. He's good in the wider channels where he can isolate a defender but running into contact he gets driven back. Not got the handling skills and whilst a handy squad player I'm not sure he'll kick on from there. Freeman has a better chance at 13 for Saints who might not want to specifically target changing his position but with the talent they have on the wings and a lack of centres in the squad a move inside for him might make sense.

I doubt Saints will be moving Freeman to 13 from what ive heard. Better to see just how good he can be as a wing or FB...probably wing.

There's Hutchinson, Dingwall, Odendaal and Litchfield as specialist centres at Saints. Odendaal is injured for the staff of the season, Hutchinson has issues tackling and Litchfield is raw.

At fullback you'd have thought Furbank is nailed on. Young Hendy

On the wings they've got Hendy, Sleightholme, Freeman and Ramm. Cousins coming through as well.

That's four quality wingers, moving Freeman into 13 allows more of Saints best players to be on the pitch at the same time. Would you prefer Sleightholme, Dingwall, Freeman, Hendy, Furbank or Sleightholme, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Freeman, Furbank?

Odendaal returning from injury is possibly a fly in the ointment of that plan as he gives Saints a more physical presence and a direct carrying threat that helps create space for the others. Adds to the defence as well.

Sleightholme, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Freeman, Furbank for me Sam. Hendy still developing and looks a prospect and another big unit..but he can come off the bench for the moment.

I'd ditch Hutchinson in a heartbeat and take Ramm or Hendy if I were Saints. Stack the attack.
Doesn't matter a great deal from an England perspective as of we remove Freeman from the back three we lose our primary chaser for the box kicks and the player we tend to position in order to collect opposition box kicks. It's not a particular strength of any of Sleightholme, IFW or Furbank though they are all passable at it.

Hutchinson is a centre, Ramm and Hendy Wing full backs, that is not going to work.

Freeman at 13 has proven to work, but then we lose our best kickchaser. We have 4 recognised centres Dingwall, Odendaal, Litchfield and Hutchinson, I was surprised to see that Litchfield has 39 appearances for Saints, that is a lot more than I thought, even though I suspect at least half were off the bench. With Odendall being so injury prone, I thin he has only just gone through double figures for appearances, we need another centre. Preferably 12, I had a bit of an out of the box selection, as Saints don't play much of the smash it down the middle game, how about a Farrell type 12, Savala is 6'4" and over 15 stone, big and quick enough to keep the defence interested, he would give Saints three options from the breakdown with Smith and Furbank. Just a thought.

Freeman goes into centre and one of Ramm or Hendy goes onto the wing. It was a conversation over whether we'll see Freeman at centre at club level.

Hutchinson playing less last season seemed to see a stronger Saints midfield even with limited central options.

Satala at 12 is an interesting option, could help Dingwall playing as a 13 as there's more chance of him replacing Slade there for England then there is him replacing Lawrence. Dingwall previously in the 13 shirt alongside Hutchinson saw Dingwall defending mainly at 12 which doesn't help with the replacing Slade bit for England.

I think Dingwall is fine at 13, although often on the rare occasions when Odendaal is fit to play, Dings is at 12 still, which baffles me.

Saints will play him (Dingwall) at 12 though if they play Freeman at 13, they have a number of very good wings and I can see Litchfield getting time at 12 as well, him and Freeman could cause a lot of teams a lot of trouble.

Saints have enough variation in the players they have to play the way that they believe is the best way to win the game, they are a lot more pragmatic now then they were a few years ago

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I think Dingwall is fine at 13, although often on the rare occasions when Odendaal is fit to play, Dings is at 12 still, which baffles me.

Saints will play him (Dingwall) at 12 though if they play Freeman at 13, they have a number of very good wings and I can see Litchfield getting time at 12 as well, him and Freeman could cause a lot of teams a lot of trouble.

Saints have enough variation in the players they have to play the way that they believe is the best way to win the game, they are a lot more pragmatic now then they were a few years ago

A genuine Saints thread after all these years......

The thing about Dingwall is Saints coaches simply want him on the field as much as possible. So at 12 if Burger or Freeman are at 13, and playing 13 if Hutch plays.

Saints have a lot of flexibility: Freeman can go at 11, 13, 14, 15. Ramm can go 11, 14, 15. Even Hutch, bless him, can go 12 and 15. Even Seabrook will get his game time on the wings. That's before we see what Litchfield brings to the table. And for him, he is young and has plenty of time to develop. Doubt he will be a regular starter this season, but he will certainly have decent game time this season. The following season will/should be his breakout year.

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I think Dingwall is fine at 13, although often on the rare occasions when Odendaal is fit to play, Dings is at 12 still, which baffles me.

Saints will play him (Dingwall) at 12 though if they play Freeman at 13, they have a number of very good wings and I can see Litchfield getting time at 12 as well, him and Freeman could cause a lot of teams a lot of trouble.

Saints have enough variation in the players they have to play the way that they believe is the best way to win the game, they are a lot more pragmatic now then they were a few years ago

A genuine Saints thread after all these years......

The thing about Dingwall is Saints coaches simply want him on the field as much as possible.  So at 12 if Burger or Freeman are at 13, and playing 13 if Hutch plays.  

Saints have a lot of flexibility: Freeman can go at 11, 13, 14, 15.  Ramm can go 11, 14, 15.  Even Hutch, bless him, can go 12 and 15.  Even Seabrook will get his game time on the wings.  That's before we see what Litchfield brings to the table.  And for him, he is young and has plenty of time to develop.  Doubt he will be a regular starter this season, but he will certainly have decent game time this season.  The following season will/should be his breakout year.  

Don't forget Toby Cousins Doc, just coming up to 20 and already 16st+, 6'2" and with speed to boot, could be another Tommy Freeman. He has come through all the age grades for England so certainly has the potential

That's a good point.  He is a big strong lad.  I might be wrong (which means I probably are wrong), but was he supposed to spend a lot of the season at Bedford?  I think I lost track of him with everything going on.

He did play a number of games for The Blues last season, but he was injured for a good part of it and then had the U20s call ups as well

You know, at this point in time, it takes a while to fire up my memory.  Now that I think I remember him I think he had nice ball skills and was pretty fast and strong, though not a beast-mode type.  

All we need to do is patent what we are feeding them in the academy and keep the young talent coming....

From the Chron:

'Amazing feeling' for McParland as Saints scrum-half wins Blakiston Challenge
So Archie wins the Blakiston. Great for him. I bet the 50kg bag probably is only slightly lighter than him.

Maybe this will help him to stop having his box kicks blocked.....

I pity Bedford Blues who line up for the annual Mobbs Memorial game against Saints Saturday, the starting line up is looking pretty exciting and with an extended bench. The backs line-up is all international baring Ramm and the forwards a mixture of young talent and with the odd exception newbies looking to impress

15 George Furbank (c)
14 Ollie Sleightholme
13 Fraser Dingwall
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 James Ramm
10 Fin Smith
9 Alex Mitchell

1 Tom West
2 Robbie Smith
3 Luke Green
4 Callum Hunter-Hill
5 Angus Scott-Young
6 Henry Pollock
7 Josh Kemeny
8 Fyn Brown

Replacements:
Curtis Langdon
Tarek Haffar
Trevor Davison
Elliot Millar Mills
Ed Prowse
Aiden Ainsworth-Cave
Kieran Perkins*
Craig Wright
Reuben Logan
Tom James
Archie McParland
Charlie Savala
Rafe Witheat
Sione Va’enuku*
Toby Thame
Tom Seabrook

Time for Saints to rebound after the tough loss last week. I think this is close to Saints best lineup at the moment. Will be interesting to see how Luke Green does in his second game off the bench - another younger prop with upside. Concerned about Archie McParland coming off the bench. In his few cameos last season, the Premiership seemed a step to much for him and tended to double-clutch, especially kicking, and had some blocked. But he is just just out of U20s and has time to settle. He does have a nice pass and at times can thread a needle with his passes.

NORTHAMPTON SAINTS vs EXETER CHIEFS
Gallagher Premiership, Round 2
Saturday 28 September, 2024
Kick-off: 5.30pm

15 George Furbank (c)
14 James Ramm
13 Fraser Dingwall
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Tommy Freeman
10 Fin Smith
9 Tom James

1 Emmanuel Iyogun
2 Curtis Langdon
3 Trevor Davison
4 Chunya Munga – 50th Premiership appearance
5 Alex Coles
6 Josh Kemeny
7 Tom Pearson
8 Juarno Augustus

Replacements:
16 Robbie Smith
17 Tom West
18 Luke Green
19 Angus Scott-Young
20 Sam Graham – 50th Saints appearance
21 Archie McParland
22 Toby Thame
23 Ollie Sleightholme

Not available for selection:
Emeka Atuanya, George Hendy, Callum Hunter-Hill, Tom Lockett, Alex Mitchell and Burger Odendaal.

Exeter Chiefs:
15 Josh Hodge
14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
13 Olly Woodburn
12 Joe Hawkins
11 Paul Brown-Bampoe
10 Harvey Skinner
9 Sam Maunder
1 Scott Sio (c)
2 Dan Frost
3 Ehren Painter
4 Rusi Tuima
5 Christ Tshiunza
6 Ethan Roots
7 Richard Capstick
8 Ross Vintcent

Replacements:
16 Jack Yeandle
17 Will Goodrick-Clarke
18 Marcus Street
19 Jack Dunne
20 Martin Moloney
21 Tom Cairns
22 Will Haydon-Wood
23 Will Rigg

The match on Friday between Saints and Quins was a great watch - but only if one is a neutral.  In the first half Quins started great and Saints looked like they did during the Boyd era.  The second half was vintage Saints, virtually a different team from the first half.  Saints gained less than 100 metres in the first half and over 300 in the second.  The stat sheet will read that the second half fight back was led by Furbank, Freeman, and Sleightholme, which it was.  But this is Rugby and their opportunities to a certain degree came from from really serious aggression and accuracy at the breakdown across the board.  

Curtis Langdon was off the charts good.  He has got to be in the next England squad.  Continuing his growth from last season, he is as good or better than any hooker in the league.  

Alex Mitchell is clearly missed.

Saints got mullered at the breakdown in the first half. Evans and Kenningham had a great time. Opting to play wider in the second half and get the ball moving more quickly definitely helped them. They'll probably need to do something similar this weekend as Tigers will be fielding Montoya and Reffell with similar ideas about spoiling the breakdown. Just like they did last year until Reffell went off with a HIA and Saints ran away with it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Saints got mullered at the breakdown in the first half. Evans and Kenningham had a great time. Opting to play wider in the second half and get the ball moving more quickly definitely helped them. They'll probably need to do something similar this weekend as Tigers will be fielding Montoya and Reffell with similar ideas about spoiling the breakdown. Just like they did last year until Reffell went off with a HIA and Saints ran away with it.

Yes, as I said Saints were poor in the first half. But they started dominating the collisions in the second half and got into their usual flow in the second. Barring injury this is a good time for Leicester to play Saints, especially at Welford Road.

They do seem a different team without Mitchell. Hope it's not the same for England. But Like last season when Saints started 0-2 and didn't really hit any real stride until after the holidays they have a good plan to slowly build as the season goes on. Losing Lawes, Waller, Luds, Moon, et al from last season is a huge adjustment.

As a neutral I don't think Saints played badly it was more that they were slow to react to Quins going hard at the breakdown. Playing wider in the second half and moving the ball away from the tight areas where Quins were winning the contact and then attacking the breakdown was a good tactical switch for the second half. Quins having started both of their opensides then had a tiring backrow as Saints started working their defence harder. The onfield leadership loss for Saints is definitely a huge loss, perhaps that experience would have guided the change mid first half instead of the coaches enacting it at half time.

England do have the benefit of JvP coming back towards his best to help mitigate the Mitchell loss. James is a pretty good back up 9 but under the spotlight of replacing Mitchell it's obvious there's a gap in ability.

There's quite a few injury concerns hanging over Tigers before this weekend. I'd feel more confident if we didn't have doubts over the likes of Martin and Perese in particular. With Cam Henderson also currently injured our lock stocks aren't as well stocked as we'd like them. There's some question marks over backrow availability as well with Carnduff, Hatherall and Cracknell.

In a game where I'd like to see the Tigers pack look to out muscle the Saints and spoil the breakdown there's a lot of doubts over players we need to do that though Montoya and Pollard returning will be a boost.

After Blamire knocking out Perese at the weekend he's unlikely to feature and young replacement Wand was holding his ribs at the end of the game. Kata is banned. Leaves the centre stocks down to Woodward and Kelly out of position at 13. Playing Saints not the time for a new centre combination.

Not to go off thread and talk about England, but is George Martin an injury concern? Any concerns about him in the Autumn internationals? This will be a tough stretch of games for England, I hope he will be fit and firing.

doctor_grey wrote:Not to go off thread and talk about England, but is George Martin an injury concern?  Any concerns about him in the Autumn internationals?  This will be a tough stretch of games for England, I hope he will be fit and firing.

He's rehabbing with England so hoping it's just a knock and he'll be good to go for the weekend.

There's also been some illness going around the Tigers camp so it might be hea just under the weather.

I'm expecting a lineup of something like;

Smith, Montoya, Heyes
Martin, Chessum
Reffell, ?, Liebenburg
JvP, Pollard
Kelly, ?
OHC, Steward, Watson

Clare, Cronin, Cole, Wells, Ilione, Youngs, Shillcock, ?

Some injury questions to be answered.