Rugby in North America

We are always hearing that rugby is growing fast in North America and when it does they will be unstoppable. But is that actually going to happen?

At the end of last month I was in Vancouver and surrounds for a couple of weeks and the only sign I saw of rugby was an expat club. All the Canadians I spoke with knew about rugby, but no-one actually knew anything about the Canadian team, or even seemed to know anyone who played socially and there seemed to be no rugby kit in any sports shops.

Now admittedly this was not a scientific bit of research and so I could have just spoken to the wrong people but with Canada having been to every recent world cup, giving a couple of the major teams a bit of a scare along the way, I had thought there would have been some interest. It was all NHL and baseball (I should mention here that Vancouver have just got to the final of the ice bockey for the first time in years so the whole region was going crazy about that, infact you may have seen the rioting when they lost.), although apparently football is becoming more popular.

So my question really is, especially for any North American posters/ people who live there; will rugby ever grow there from a minor/ expat game there, or are the pan-american sports too deeply entrenched?

I have a mate who is living in Canada and he said the same sort of thing when he came home last time. His wife, who is Canadian, said something about there only really being Ice Hockey and Baseball in Canada, but a few years ago there was american football they had a side (as I believe it was Toronto) that were not too bad.

So maybe if they could get a club side into a tournament they would pick up a bit of interest, but I don't think it will ever catch on big.

yeah one of my former rugby team mates is working in Canada and he said what little rugby he has found has been so poor that he's given up.

I expect it to grow slowly. We are all still waiting for soccer to take off.

I suspect that Eastern Europe will be the next boom of Rugby. I would back Russia and Georgia to get their act together much quicker and I would even bet that other eastern europeans follow suit and take to the sport before any real inroads are made across the pond.

Maybe 7s will be popular but I fail to see the USA competing at the real game for quite some time.

I know that our school did a rugby trip to america (bout 10 years ago) and the boys who went came back and said that the yanks see it as an extreme sport, and only mental folk play it

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I know that our school did a rugby trip to america (bout 10 years ago) and the boys who went came back and said that the yanks see it as an extreme sport, and only mental folk play it

Look at the episode of Friends they play it. They show a fairly tame tackle in a 6 Nations game and all the Yanks shudder.

I got friendly with a bunch of americans who were over studying here as part of their University programs. One of the guys was really into his rugby, in fact he seemed to carry a rugby ball with him everywhere he went.

Anyways I think he played a game for a local FE college while he was here and was a bit overawed by the standard. Said it was much higher than he was used too and this would have been far lower standard than the schools or club rugby here so the standard he must have been used to at his local team must have been pretty pants.

I was over there on holiday in '05, at a friend's bbq I got talking to one of the locals. His father (called "F" from here on in to save typing) had gone to Notre Dame (big American football college) on a grid iron scholarship. Apparently they got F down for a look around the year before he started. The team captain met F and the other new boys and gave them a tour of campus. Everywhere they went doors were held open, and people smiled and waved. Until they strolled into square that had some guys looking battered, bruises and bandages everywhere. Abruptly the captain ushered the newbies away.
One asked "What was that about".
Captain: "Don't mess with them, they're the rugby team"

I spend 6-8 weeks a year in the US and have done for many years. I don't believe rugby will ever develop beyond it's current level. The only interest is from fans from Rugby countries who now live there.

I soccer can't make it with it's global status and money - rugby has little chance.

I think people need to give these things time. I would say that the game will never be a major sport in North America but if it finds a niche, we still will have two pretty decent rugby playing nations.

One big step that needs to happen in Canada is move to a summer league.

I can see it having a slow growth - it isn't likely to challenge their big 4 sports any time soon but my other half is American so I've seen her reaction and that of other Americans on being introduced to it which was amused disbelief to start with as the players carried on after big hits followed by quite enjoying it. They look at it as the missing link between American football and ice hockey.

Would it be fair to say that one majors hurdle is that it needs corporate sponsors to grow? This is unlikely to happen due to the popularity of NFL.

Also collegiate sport is the backbone of the US sporting system and NFL, Basketball and Track and field are well imbedded there so it's hard to see how rugby can take off really.

i do find it funny how the yanks find rugby brutal, i mean i know american footballers have that padding but it aint exactly a soft non contact sport.

the thing that amuses me is that in NFL you can pass backwards as many times as you want- so a rugby team would own a NFL team at NFL with a bit of knowledge of the rules

welshy824 wrote:the thing that amuses me is that in NFL you can pass backwards as many times as you want- so a rugby team would own a NFL team at NFL with a bit of knowledge of the rules

I doubt that very much. Certain NFL positions like Linebackers are far bigger than even the biggest rugby players. There is also no rugby equivilant to the QB which is the key position. The two sports are totally different.

i mean the fact that my friend told me (who loves nfl) that you can pass backwards as many times as you want and i think i did overaggerate about rugby teams beating nfl teams but if you put a few rugby union tactics or players in nfl then it could be interesting

Rugby is quite popular in Canada. My cousin plays at university level and apparently they have sizeable teams for men and women, go on foreign tours and play weekly matches.

I think we're kidding ourselves by saying rugby will eventually become a mainstream sport in North America. It won't. But hopefully it will grow a bit more so that the national team are more competitive.

We should look to countries like Russia (who have recently implemented Rugby 7s in all schools), Georgia, Germany, Spain, Portugal and Romania for growth. I'd love rugby to become a truly European sport. A German club in Frankfurt were in talks about entering the European Challenge Cup a few years back. I don't know how that's progressing.

Rich unions like the RFU should look to invest money in these countries. I think if people knew about rugby and were given the opportunity to play it, it could really catch on in a big way. They should give grants to clubs in Spain/Portugal for more equipment, promotion, coaching etc.

OK sorry yes I'm sure many rugby players could succeed in NFL. Lomu was a big target for the Dallas Cowboys after the 1995 WC. In terms of a rugby team beating them at their own game though? No chance those Line backers are >350lbs!!

roddersm wrote:OK sorry yes I'm sure many rugby players could succeed in NFL. Lomu was a big target for the Dallas Cowboys after the 1995 WC. In terms of a rugby team beating them at their own game though? No chance those Line backers are >350lbs!!

True enough Rodders. Of course, put them into a rugby match and they'd be out on their feet in 5-10 minutes. Completely different type of fitness

MBTGOG

I think you are right that as a summer sport rugby in Canada could do well. As in Vancouver for example, the only real competition seemed to be a new MLS team, which apparently isnt well supported. A move to the summer would also fit in with sevens, which presumably will receive increased funding now its an olympic sport. At the moment it is hard to see it moving from a minority social amateur sport though I think.

Rodders,

You'd never get a linebacker that is 350lbs.

Exactly Kiwi I agree 100%.

Read an interesting article about the allblacks a while back. Can't remember it exactly but basically they were saying that NFL players are still way ahead in terms of athleticism but that the all blacks were catching them up. Sorry can't remember it exactly so don't quote me. It should be on the web somewhere.

MBTGOG wrote:Rodders,

You'd never get a linebacker that is 350lbs.

OK maybe not Linebackers but the tacklers maybe. Anyway they're much bigger than rugby players.

You might get the odd defensive tackle that is that big and maybe some offensive tackles but that's still rare. Plus, they do very short plays and get spelled often. I really don't think their size is impressive at all.

There was an interesting article a few years ago about how a growing trend in some of the colleges was to encourage the American football players to play rugby during the off season as they felt it would be good for improving their ball handling, tackling (in particular holding the player in the tackle) and stamina which wouldn't happen if they're just playing American football.

If that did become common place it would be a major boost for rugby, since since of the college players might stick with rugby when they realise they're not going to make the NFL.

Here's the article I was on about above:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/4531008/All-Blacks-measure-up-for-American-football

interesting article. 200+kg benching thats not too shabby. but like it said in the article they are massive blokes themselves

i read somewhere i think it was andy mcnabs autobiography that he was benching over 200kg in the SAS. (just a nice useless fact)

Living in Canada, everyone here know's about rugby but few follow it. However, I think it is steadily growing, although it will never be as popular as Iced Hockey, Baseball and Canadian & American Football. It's true, hockey is by far the main (religion) sport here, although most people who I work with are pretty p****d off with it at the moment due to the events in Vancouver last night.

I think it will grow more in the US - not because there are proportionally more expats there but because the the universities in the US seem to be taking it more seriously. My Mrs works with someone who's daughter has been offered a nursing scholarship in Illinois (or Iowa, can't remember for sure) based on her playing age grade rugby here in Alberta and playing for the university team. That is a big thing, nursing degree's are very expensive over here. By the way, she's a hooker .

I know an Australian through work who basically came over to play rugby in Regina. I have no idea how good he is but he certainly had the physique of a professional player. It turned out that the MD of the company was also the Chairman of the Saskatchewan Rugby Board.

We have a local rugby club here who have male and female teams, as well as age grade levels. I know the men have at least 3 teams as I was asked to turn out for the 3rd's but I have no idea of the standard. The main high schools play in Alberta wide competitions and the results get announced on local radio with the main sports news, both boys and girls.

As a side note I think football (or soccer) will grow faster and will become more popular. It's safer than Hockey (head injuries are constantly in the news for all age groups) and hockey gear is so expensive that nearly all kids now play on a regular basis.

Rugby is the third fastest growing rugby in the USA according to an article i read recently. With growth in numbers like that, if it continues, it can't help but become a more successful sport there. The main growth is amongst kids. As that generation grows up they must have more quality players and even if they don't play it there will be a bigger audience there who will understand the rules and hopefully want to follow the sport. I will post the article on here if i can find it again.

This year for the first time the rugby world cup will be broadcast nationwide. I can't remember the network for the moment.

Money and geography seem to be the biggest challenges. That and getting support at college level. And more coaches. The country is vast so that taking a whole team to play another club can cost serious money and time.

Interesting topic. I was informed on another forum, by Canadian rugby fans, of the Canadian Rugby Championship. It replaced the America's Rugby Championship. I'm under the impression it is semi-pro and they are currently looking to make it fully pro, but there is a lot of red tape that will hold that back for a few years. Works the same way as New Zealand. Each province, British Columbia, Prairies, Ontario and Newfoundland/Quebec have their own domestic competition in which the best players are picked to go on to play for their provisional. Think they have different windows to play in and I was told by one user that crowds can get up to 5 thousand. All hear say though so no quoting please.
All in all in appears maybe it is who you talk to?

Rugby in China

Story I "heard". Chinese Army likes rugby because they think it will make the soldiers tougher (unlike that girly soccer - major sport in China).
So they pop over to NZ Army and says "we know you guys are great at this stuff - could you loan us some coaches"
NZ Army says "love to"
Chinese Army says "we'll take 30,000" please

lol, thats communism for you.

i heard that some canadian players were playing for RGC in north wales, trying to go semi pro

A heck of a lot of nonsense being spoken on here. I've got news for you: Americans have NO problem with the physicality of rugby. I've lived in the US for over ten years, and (if you play higher level) the hits are INSANE. That's the one area that comes naturally to these gun toting maniacs.

Sure, if you speak to the average American (who knows nothing about rugby) they will say something like "Oh rugby?! That's brutal huh? Harder than football!", but this is because they've never even seen a game, and somehow rugby has developed an exagerated reputation for being crazy, violent, and without rules. They think it's some kind of lawless, violent, free for all.

The real problem is this: it is a relatively unpopular sport in the states, and there are only a handfull of quality sides over here, so if you're a talented American rugby player, you're still gonna be an amateur until you have the chance to showcase your talents on a decent stage. If the US' top players are unavailable (as was the case for the Churchill Cup) then you're in the unenviable position of having to field a team almost entirely composed of amateurs. Not really a level playing field. They should look ten times as good in the world cup.

So, the US aren't great, but are better than you think, AND don't think for a second that they can't hack the physicality. That's just stupid. There are many problems with America, but fear of physical violence definitely isn't one of them.

Countnefarious wrote:
So, the US aren't great, but are better than you think, AND don't think for a second that they can't hack the physicality. That's just stupid. There are many problems with America, but fear of physical violence definitely isn't one of them.

Who suggested Americans can't cope with the physicality?

When I was in Germany, the U.S. Army have a base in Ilsheim. I was contacted by them to referee a match against a team from Bavaria and travelled up there.

The Americans were over physical. Jumping into tackles, stiff arm challenges and shoulder charges, high tackling etc. Physicality isn't the problem.

Back on the old 606 during some WC or other I recall discussing this with some yanks and we anded up agreeing there was a lot in common between rugby and American Football, but that the main difference was that AF had specialised hugely by position whereas RU hadn't, and that most of the differences could be explained that way (there's also that AF is the Coaches playing live chess with human pieces in a way Rugby isn't). There's no doubt of the physicality of AF and the horrific injuries they can and do sustain.

Nothing will ever challenge AF in the USA - certainly not Rugby, because it occupies too similar a sporting slot to AF.

The main problem in Canada I've heard about is the sheer distances involved. Very difficult to get together at all, when half the team have to cover 3,000 miles to meet the other half for training.

chuckle. Years ago when I was at Uni, I turned out for the 3rds along with a yank. Great chap. Got us penalised off the pitch because he instinctively tackled AF style...

From my travels there traditionally all the kids play basketball in the way that kids here in the UK kick a football around. But that is changing and a lot more kids do play 'soccer' than they used to, though the standard is a lot lower than the equivalent age grades here.

Its a very very big place and I would guess that Rugby properly is going to be regional. There will be odd pockets where it will do well - and there has often been talk about the college rugby scene but it will be a very long time before it becomes a big sport there.

Interesting article in todays Irish independent which answers a few of the questions here:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pioneering-spirit-keeps-american-dream-alive-amid-the-reality-of-minority-status-2672736.html

lostinwales wrote:Its a very very big place and I would guess that Rugby properly is going to be regional. There will be odd pockets where it will do well

To be fair is that difference to anywhere. South England, South Wales, South France, North Italy etc.

From what ive been told, is that rugby has been played for a long time in some of the American colleges, more eastern board. When you watch the film 'The Departed' the Boston police cadets are playing the fire cadets in a game of rugby.

Also, rugby is supposed to be quite popular in Colorado where theyve built a rugby purpose pitch (think i read it in Rugby World world last year), im too lazy to check to see if this true.

I wonder though, if the eastern europeans such as the Georgians, Ukranians and especially the Russians take rugby seriously and make in roads in the 7's and at the world cups that the Yanks would take it more seriously

Don't want to threadjack here but does anyone know why Germany don't really play rugby? Surely they could be a force if they did.

roddersm wrote:Don't want to threadjack here but does anyone know why Germany don't really play rugby? Surely they could be a force if they did.

They do. Last season they were in 2nd tier of 6 Nations with Portugal, Russia, Georgia, Romania and Spain. They play most of their games in the university town of Heidelberg and several of their players are French Div 2 standard. Munich and Hannover hold very popular 7s tournaments.

I was surprised when I lived there how popular rugby is especially amongst the natives not just French, English and Italian expats.

Thanks Stag I just would have thought they would be more successful than they are. If they took the game seriously then it would greatly enhance european and world rugby.

Rodders I think they will in time be a good time. Eastern Europe will take off first IMO.

I certainly have the impression that the the whole ex-soviet region is falling in love with Rugby. Maybe I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 22, but I suspect that some fairly macho cultures are finding a healthy means of expression after the straitjacket of communism. Think they are quite big on wrestling and weightlifting too...

Cowshot wrote:I certainly have the impression that the the whole ex-soviet region is falling in love with Rugby. Maybe I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 22, but I suspect that some fairly macho cultures are finding a healthy means of expression after the straitjacket of communism. Think they are quite big on wrestling and weightlifting too...

Cow I'm getting that impression too. Teams from Kazaghstan, Latvia etc are trying to get teams into Russias Professional League. Some players from Russia are moving to established premiership teams.

The big problem is though with all unions trying to reduce non national qualified players in their leagues how will these guys improve.

I think the answer is a Europe wide organised seaon with International windows and agreed player release system. Oh look. Flying pigs...

red_stag wrote:
The big problem is though with all unions trying to reduce non national qualified players in their leagues how will these guys improve.

Thats a very good point stag. These developing nations rely on players who play in the main leagues but with leagues intoducing quota systems this will make it even harder for developing nations to improve.

They need more people like Vasily Artimiev. Irish qualified on residency as a teenager and was in Leinster academy. Chose to play for Russia rather than Ireland. Has now been signed by Northampton Saints. He will be a real hero for Russian Rugby.

Perhaps countries that have quotas for foreign players should also be allowed an additional quota for players from developing nations or the quota system could be adjusted.

Say the Irish system. Instead of 4 NIQ' s it could be 3 NIQ's + 1 NIQ from an non tier 1 nation?