Calling 'Mark'.

Calling a 'mark' as we are all well aware a "MARK" can be called inside own 22-metre or in-goal area
My question is would extending the area that a Mark could be called help in limiting the aerial ping pong that we often see these days.

Has that problem not really gone away?

I think discouraging sides from kicking will limit the variety of the game. I like the current balance.

Are you stuck in 2009? Aerial pingpong is dead....sort of

Now scrums....

Notch wrote:Has that problem not really gone away?

I think discouraging sides from kicking will limit the variety of the game. I like the current balance.

Or it will encourage them to kick a bit more intelligently as in kick into space.

Increases the penalties for not getting it right though. It devalues the chase and makes the up and under redundant. I would miss both of those things.

The up and under wont be redundant don't forget that calling a Mark is useless unless you have caught the ball in the first place,
So a well placed up and under will still give the attacking side a chance of getting there first.

Obviously you want to win the ball, but part of an up and under is if you can get there second but in greater numbers you'll likely win the ball or force a penalty for holding on. It just makes it a lower percentage option for me.

Could increase the use of the grubber though.

wales606 wrote:Are you stuck in 2009? Aerial pingpong is dead....sort of

Now scrums....

I totally agree - lets call Mark in scrums

Notch wrote:Obviously you want to win the ball, but part of an up and under is if you can get there second but in greater numbers you'll likely win the ball or force a penalty for holding on. It just makes it a lower percentage option for me.

What I'm trying to say, clumsily, is that if you don't win the ball from the up and under you can exert a significant amount of pressure on the breakdown- if they can mark it and you don't win the ball and you give them a great chance to win some serious territory. Remember they could have a mark from just inside the halfway line.

Cymroglan wrote: Calling a 'mark' as we are all well aware a "MARK" can be called inside own 22-metre or in-goal area
My question is would extending the area that a Mark could be called help in limiting the aerial ping pong that we often see these days.

Graham Henry was an advocate of this. He suggested it be anywhere within your own half. To be honest I don't see the need for it.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

wales606 wrote:Are you stuck in 2009? Aerial pingpong is dead....sort of

Now scrums....

I totally agree - lets call Mark in scrums

Great idea, as soon as the Hooker has hooked the ball, the SH shouts "mark" and the side is awarded a free kick...

Right, thats scrums sorted then...what next?

Hi ya,
I agree. Increase it to half way. Rugby is a game that was desiged to run with the ball in hand. Kicking started to disappear last year but now it is back and will feature strongly this world cup.

I dont mind the ground or grubber kicks and short chips but continuous kick for the opposition to make an error just makes it a 50 50 scenario where luck more than skill is required.

My theory is, if you want to kick good posession away, little advantage should come of it. You have 15 players that are standing there able, willing and eager to run the ball and what do they find... balls kicked to the other team.

Revert to the old Mark law,any where on the field for a fair catch,Place[with placer]chargeable or Drop at goal allowed.
That law enabled people like Mark Nichols,and Don Clarke win test matches v SA[1928] and England[ 1963]

Did Don Clarke go on the 63 tour. Wasnt aware of that. Must have been his last I know Ian clarke dropped a goal from a mark for the baas baas vs AB's on that tour.

To sort out the crooked throws at lineouts

The ball may be thrown in by the teams hooker in any direction wished.

Once the ball has left the hookers hands, the fist lock forward to shout "mark" shall win his side a free kick

Any lock forward caught shouting "mark" before the ball has left the hookers hands shall concede a penalty against his team.

Any team may nominate one backrow player to also be allowed to shout "mark" during the lineout.

This law will also prevent injuries from people jumping aroung in the air and falling down.


......Lineout solved, whats next.....

Wales606,

Any players called Mark are going to get really annoyed. As is Mark Lawrence when he refs ...

If you wish to start a topic on ways to change the scrum and lineouts then I'm sure many would be interested in the discussion and that includes myself.
But this thread is all about extending the area that a mark could be called.

I think the calling of 'Mark' should be replaced by a tongue twister to make it a bit more interesting.

Try shouting "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers" as a Samoan bears down on you

Seriously though I don't think there's any need for a change in the laws. Ping pong seems to have disappeared (by and large) and I'm not keen on fiddling with the laws unless there's a real need.

Fair point Cymro,

(sorry it's Saturday morning and my team's just won so I'm in a light mood. Once I get back from my 6km run later otoh )


I definitely wouldn't like to see marks allowed in the attacking half - unless you were banned from taking a drop-goal attempt from a mark. Actually, can you take a droppie from a mark any more? Morne Steyn et al would love to have a crack at a 55 metre drop-goal from a mark.

You probably can still have a drop goal from a mark, but with the current rules you'd be belting it from your own 22!

I think you can have a shot at a drop goal from a standard free kick or penalty as well.

Don Clarke was a trialist for 1953-4 tour of europe,first choice full back/goal kicker 1956-64 inclusive.
Toured 1963-4 pulled hamstring during Wales test but carried on to the end of the match.Injury effected his goal kicking until the Barbarians match when he kicked eveyrthing.
I was in the crowd at Bournemouth versus a Southern Counties side where the
all Blacks struggled to win 9-6 the worst match of the tour.He started as the Goal kicker but was taken off.His touch returned to him in his last season 1964 versus Australia.
England made a short Tour in 1963 ,but it was made up of whoever was avaliable.The Score in the 2Nd test was 6-6.he claimed a Mark took a placed kick from his own 10 metre line.Kicked a 65 metre goal to win the match[He is also credited with a placed goal from a Mark versus Australia.
One of 5 Brothers who played for Waikato,doug,Ian,Graeme ,Brian and Don.
Ian toured in 1953 and 1963 tours first All Black to do so 10 years apart.
Capped for the Barbarians versus the All Blacks[1964] dropped a goal from a mark.
Incidentaly Don Clarke had all 4 cartilages form his knees removed during his career.so considering his goal kicking was pretty amazing.

You can't take a shot at goal from a mark. It is a free kick. The same way if you kick to touch the other team gets the throw in.

But you can drop goal from a free kick, can't you?

No

Really? You can drop-goal from a penalty though can't you?

Yea you can from a penalty kick but not a freekick. In fact if you get a Freekick and take a scrum you aren't allowed to simply win the scrum, pass it back to flyhalf and take a drop goal.

Can you drop goal directly from a scrum which was conceded after a knock-on, or does that rule apply to all scrums? And what about lineouts?

Notch no problem after a knock on. Just scrums after a freekick. Lineout is never an issue.

Just for the law reference that Stag is talking about.

21.6 SCORING FROM A FREE KICK
(a) A goal cannot be scored from a free kick.
(b) The team awarded a free kick cannot score a dropped goal until after the ball next becomes dead, or until after an opponent has played or touched it, or has tackled the ball carrier. This restriction applies also to a scrum taken instead of a free kick

And also Law 18 says that a free kick is given for a mark. I don't have exact wording now I'm afraid.

Cheers Stag and Thunor. Looks like I've put up a red herring there, sorry all. Back to the main mark debate it is then ...

That used to be the law, you could call a Mark anywhere. Llandybie won the Tovali cup at Stradey in the 60's when their second row called a Mark from a drop out and dropped a goal from the resulting free kick to win the match 3-0.

Calling a mark and being able to drop a goal from anywhere has its merits if you wanted to remove kicking, or bad kicking, altogether.

It leaves less room for missing touch or up and unders where pressure on the catcher rather than contesting the ball would be removed.

Trouble is it changes the face of the game. Increases the need for catching, drop kicking skills across the team etc which explains why prop Ian Clarke was able to do it- though having a dead eye kicker for a brother would have helped.

It would also increase the contact area where players would be prone to injury and fatigue- running the ball all day, and the lesser kicking in the early sxv matches could explain part of the high injury toll.

The classic Mark law was in the era when Rugby Union was a winter sport in both hemispheres.The ball heavy leather ,Stadiums were all open.fielding an
up and under.
In wet weather with a pack of forwards rushing down on you took nerve,to catch,standing still,simultaneosly shouting "Mark " was`nt as easy as it sounds.
Incidentally ALL the Clarke Brothers were skilful kickers,Doug the utility back.
Brian and Graeme the Locks as well as Don and Ian.

I could make my peace with allowing the mark anywhere within your own half. I just don't see the need for it.

I don't really see the need for extending the mark location. (Sorry probably not the best way to say it) I don't see that the ariel ping pong is such a problem now.

Taylorman i think the opposite to you regarding kicking. Rugby football, when it began, used to be all about the kicking. I'm amazed that you'd say otherwise. Being able to pick the ball up was one part of the game and it distinguished it from football. But the only way to score though was by kicking a goal. You had to have players that were good at kicking to win. Running with the ball was part of the game but would never win you a match without a good kicker. (That's partly because of what scrums were like too and how many there were.)

Scrums were, as you probably all know, football games in the middle of the rugby match. Men could kick but not pick up the ball once it was thrown in. Ten men competed for it from each side (the first ten to get to the spot). Pushing was allowed but binding didn't exist. The word scrummage i heard came from the word "skirmish" . (Football at the time was a lot more physical too) Srums typically determined which side won. And srums were all about football skills.

Rugby as i understood it used to be a game for forwards with good football skills. Don't get me wrong, i'm delighted that good rugby now is considered to be skillful passing and running, it's much more exiting to watch, but you've got to respect the roots of the sport.

I'm going to get all nostalgic here and wish that we could revert to the old rules of the catcher must have both feet on the ground, one heel in the pitch etc. I understand that the laws may have been changed for safety reasons but now the laws so heavily favour the defender that it has taken away from a good old fashioned Garryowen