Federer's mental toughness in question again

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Roger Federer losing yet another tight 5 set match brings back the debate that was on this board some weeks ago, mentally, Federer is not tough compared to the many greats of the past and most of todays players. His fans i'm sure will come and sugar court explanations as to why yet again he came up short in another close 5 set match but i'm afraid the truth is he is mentally weak. It has nothing to do with fitness or age, this has been the story throughout his career, when put under pressure, he sucumbs to it. once Tsonga who i have to congratulate for a great performance won the 4th set, they was only going to be one winner.

For a part, Federer believed to much in the media hype and everyone making him favourite. We hear about the great fast court condition player, the player who will excel the most under fast conditions but today once again shows other wise, he is just not that good a volleyer. He refused to come to the net when Tsonga was doing so more often and when he did he was fairly successful at 26/42 but still not great and how we would have won on faster grass which requires serve and volley on consistent basis, i have no idea.

Tsonga player really great and with more flair, hitting single handed backhand winners when he felt like ans serving really well but losing from 2 sets down must be hard for Federer. Sampras' 7 Wimbledon title is still safe i will say. Federer has his own mental weakness to blame, it has been his downfall many times. His career 5 set record is just too poor and not good enough. He is a great front runner but when the going gets tough against tough opposition when a players mental toughness is really shown.

had some work gone offline,

look at all the 5 set matches he had against any one, they were epic and by saying it was because of his mental attitude he lost those matches you are disrespecting his opponent who has played better.

please don't try to pain me as a fed fanboy, i'm a fan of tennis and thats where my loyalty is and will be.

for all non players, what nadal brings to the court my make you go oohh, ahhh but if you had ever stepped on the court you will be in awe with what Fed is able to do on the court, i don't like him when he is running looks ugly.

Way Fed play is simple, he tries to bring out the worst in you if he does not succeed he looses.

Tom, I just don't understand why crying has to be a weak thing to do?

If you think only girls do that then my friend your wrong, its the men.

Thanks LK and Lydian. At least there are some level-headed fans that make it worthwhile discussing Tennis without having to make one player bigger than another.

I think of Rios, Mecir, Korda, Moya, Ferrero, Ferrer and many others whenever a player gets analysed as a set of numbers (and I like statistics a lot).

Statistics does not tell me anything about how the next orange or apple I will eat will taste, but gives a me general pointer of what they may taste like. Such pointers help me want to buy an orange or an apple.

The same applies to tennis.

BTW, did not realise that Miles Maclagan (ranked 298 then) played a five-setter against Becker (then ranked 77) in W R128 in 1999.

Looking forward to Federer being ranked 77 and Rafa 76 playing each other in the senior invitational at FO 2027.

parthi wrote: if you had ever stepped on the court you will be in awe with what Fed is able to do on the court

If you've ever played tennis you'll be in awe at what any of the Top 10 can do. Federer is a great player but he's being beaten regularly now by other great players playing awesome tennis. Federer doesnt have exclusivity in 'awesomeness'.

I remember that match Laverfan with Becker, court 2 I think. It was just about Miles' only claim to fame!

Very interesting statistics LF.

I like to be level headed and it just becomes frustrating that people single out players because of their success and find ways to discredit their achievements.

I am a fan of stats too as you can find some interesting ones that often don't reflect what happens in the world of tennis.

Lydian sorry cant agree there, the top 10 yes they can do wonders but when he is on song he is still way ahead of the top 10 and is still a class above.

What i like the most is, he just carry's on as if he just played one more ball where as the other top 10 fist pump and swear.

problem now for him is he cant produce that brilliance day in and day out and is having too many off days.

If we put Federer's mental toughness in question after a loss to Tsonga who played amazing tennis, then shouldn't we put Nadal's toughness in question too, as he got beaten really badly by Tsonga in Queens (losing 8 of last 9 games 6-7 6-4 6-1) after he was up a set and break 7-6 1-0?

I find that arguing Nadal's or Federer's mental toughness is about the same as discussing if Warren Buffett is rich or if only Bill Gates is rich. They are both really rich.

And let's face it. When Tsonga is on a roll, then he is scary good. Like Soderling, Berdych, Del Potro can be too.

stefan.reist wrote:If we put Federer's mental toughness in question after a loss to Tsonga who played amazing tennis, then shouldn't we put Nadal's toughness in question too, as he got beaten really badly by Tsonga in Queens (losing 8 of last 9 games 6-7 6-4 6-1) after he was up a set and break 7-6 1-0?

I find that arguing Nadal's or Federer's mental toughness is about the same as discussing if Warren Buffett is rich or if only Bill Gates is rich. They are both really rich.

And let's face it. When Tsonga is on a roll, then he is scary good. Like Soderling, Berdych, Del Potro can be too.

I know what Nadal fans are going to say- it was not in a slam, 5 setters are different ball game.

Welome to the forum stefan

Enjoy the debates

luciusmann wrote:His record over the recent period isn't as good as it was the years prior to the Australian Open 2009, i.e. he made finals consistently, but that doesn't mean he's unlikely to win more slams.

And you forget Post USO 2010 - WTF 2010 so easily. You call yourself a Fed Fan. Shame on you. Just kidding

luciusmann wrote:I do agree he needs to do something about his mental focus. What though, I'm unsure. There are various aspects he needs to focus on.

Annacone and Luthi (to some extent) has (/have) a lot of experience dealing with such situations.

BTW, he is playing DC. http://www.daviscup.com/en/results/tie/details.aspx?tieId=100016218

Rafa is playing Canada after W.

wow wrote:

stefan.reist wrote:If we put Federer's mental toughness in question after a loss to Tsonga who played amazing tennis, then shouldn't we put Nadal's toughness in question too, as he got beaten really badly by Tsonga in Queens (losing 8 of last 9 games 6-7 6-4 6-1) after he was up a set and break 7-6 1-0?

I find that arguing Nadal's or Federer's mental toughness is about the same as discussing if Warren Buffett is rich or if only Bill Gates is rich. They are both really rich.

And let's face it. When Tsonga is on a roll, then he is scary good. Like Soderling, Berdych, Del Potro can be too.

I know what Nadal fans are going to say- it was not in a slam, 5 setters are different ball game.

WTF 2010 was not a slam either.

I was talking about his slam performance in that post Laverfan!

Had Fed won another slam in 2010, then I'd have counted 2010 as a part of Fed's period of dominance/good performances, but alas, he did not (it's also hard to suggest he was when the other 3 slams went to Rafa).

Maybe Fed can learn something from going to the Davis Cup like Djokovic did last year, but I doubt it @ the moment.

parthi wrote:had some work gone offline,

look at all the 5 set matches he had against any one, they were epic and by saying it was because of his mental attitude he lost those matches you are disrespecting his opponent who has played better.

please don't try to pain me as a fed fanboy, i'm a fan of tennis and thats where my loyalty is and will be.

for all non players, what nadal brings to the court my make you go oohh, ahhh but if you had ever stepped on the court you will be in awe with what Fed is able to do on the court, i don't like him when he is running looks ugly.

Way Fed play is simple, he tries to bring out the worst in you if he does not succeed he looses.

Tom, I just don't understand why crying has to be a weak thing to do?

Crying isn't particularly weak obviously, but in my opinion it is weak to let your losses overcome you, particularly on a stage where you have been able to enjoy you own victories multiple times previously.

parthi wrote:
If you think only girls do that then my friend your wrong, its the men.

What on earth are you talking about?

stefan.reist wrote:If we put Federer's mental toughness in question after a loss to Tsonga who played amazing tennis, then shouldn't we put Nadal's toughness in question too, as he got beaten really badly by Tsonga in Queens (losing 8 of last 9 games 6-7 6-4 6-1) after he was up a set and break 7-6 1-0?

I find that arguing Nadal's or Federer's mental toughness is about the same as discussing if Warren Buffett is rich or if only Bill Gates is rich. They are both really rich.

And let's face it. When Tsonga is on a roll, then he is scary good. Like Soderling, Berdych, Del Potro can be too.

Maybe you should start a topic on Nadal's mental toughness if you want to discuss it?

Tom_____ wrote:

stefan.reist wrote:If we put Federer's mental toughness in question after a loss to Tsonga who played amazing tennis, then shouldn't we put Nadal's toughness in question too, as he got beaten really badly by Tsonga in Queens (losing 8 of last 9 games 6-7 6-4 6-1) after he was up a set and break 7-6 1-0?

I find that arguing Nadal's or Federer's mental toughness is about the same as discussing if Warren Buffett is rich or if only Bill Gates is rich. They are both really rich.

And let's face it. When Tsonga is on a roll, then he is scary good. Like Soderling, Berdych, Del Potro can be too.

Maybe you should start a topic on Nadal's mental toughness if you want to discuss it?

Nadal is the toughest player mentally I have seen in my life.

Tom, people allow their emotions to overcome them all the time and in sports, when things can be tough why can't you show your emotions? Just because you lose suddenly you're not allowed to display them? It may be the case that women show them more often but I see nothing wrong with men showing them too and it doesn't matter if Fed is a sports star or not, he's still human and defeats usually hurt.

I was watching the BBC programme about the history of Wimbledon and Novotna cried when she lost to Steffi after a close match. Close matches are going to hurt more because you could have won, the Australian Open '09 match was a close match, so I can perfectly well understand why Fed cried.

My missus cried when she saw Federer crying. I could understand the tears. Seeing Rod Laver, one of his peers presenting the trophy to the winner and Roger was genuinally upset and gutted it wasn't him.

I like to see emotion in sport as it shows we are all human still.

luciusmann wrote:Tom, people allow their emotions to overcome them all the time and in sports, when things can be tough why can't you show your emotions? Just because you lose suddenly you're not allowed to display them? It may be the case that women show them more often but I see nothing wrong with men showing them too and it doesn't matter if Fed is a sports star or not, he's still human and defeats usually hurt.

I was watching the BBC programme about the history of Wimbledon and Novotna cried when she lost to Steffi after a close match. Close matches are going to hurt more because you could have won, the Australian Open '09 match was a close match, so I can perfectly well understand why Fed cried.

When did i ever say anything about 'not allowed' or 'can't show emotions' - did you read my post? I implied it showed mental weakness, in the non-acceptance of defeat - thats all. By all means cry if you want to.

In that situation, when the other player has just achieved for the first time something you have already tasted, then if you are strong of mind, you should be able to look back at victories past and take heart, or likewise look across to you opponent and accept that it is their day this time. Although actually i believe Novotna and Murray are other players whose mentality was/is weak, its slightly different as at the time they were slamless.

I don't really see how the whole sex difference thing comes into this, i didn't bring it up. I don't really see any difference between the mentally strong men and the mentally strong women.

There's nothing wrong with crying after a loss. Bursting into tears when making a post speech, that is a problem.

Well yes it does matter, because if any player cries (particularly a player who's won grand slams) your now saying their mentally weak which I certainly don't agree with. So what if it was Nadal's day, just like many players jump up and down on the court when they win, should they stop because it might hurt the feelings of the loser? We're humans, not robots.

Immediately after a loss (especially a close grand slam final loss), I don't think players or any person is going to take your elevated reflection on their past achievements, why would they, they've just lost! That's the reality now, not the reality of what happened the years gone by, be realistic! Also, I'm not sure if it shows non acceptance of defeat, when Nadal beat him @ the Australian Open '09, Nadal became the only player to beat Federer on all 3 tennis surfaces, I don't think any other player has done that, it was a pivotal moment, maybe he realised he wasn't invincible, there are many things that might have led to the crying but non acceptance of defeat isn't the only one.

Federer has cried when he has won as well, he's just an emotional guy, that's all. I don't think it shows mental weakness by crying, when he cried at the Aus Open '09 I actually felt sorry for him, even Rafa comforted him on the podium. Poor guy had only won 14 GS's at that point.

"maybe he realised he wasn't invincible"

Thats the mental issue for me, i'm not sure if he did think that, but maybe he should never have thought he was invincible in the first place, because it crashes hard when it crashes.

I'm not for one second saying i dislike emotion shown, or 'its wrong'. However it does indicate fragility in the mind in my personal opinion and life experiences

Maybe Fed can clear it up with an autobiography, which, given how things are going, might be out soon enough!

It can indicate a lot of thing but mainly that you're overcome by a certain emotion in that moment in time, I'm still a bit uncertain if that means he's mentally fragile overall.

As nasals (welcome btw) points out, he's cried when he's won too that could be mental fragility too, no? I wish I was able to cry in moments of absolute joy, but I'm not used to displaying emotions and would feel uncomfortable, just as I don't like crying if I'm sad/deeply disappointed but I acknowledge that this a rather old school way of behaving.

luciusmann wrote:Maybe Fed can clear it up with an autobiography, which, given how things are going, might be out soon enough!

It can indicate a lot of thing but mainly that you're overcome by a certain emotion in that moment in time, I'm still a bit uncertain if that means he's mentally fragile overall.

As nasals (welcome btw) points out, he's cried when he's won too that could be mental fragility too, no? I wish I was able to cry in moments of absolute joy, but I'm not used to displaying emotions and would feel uncomfortable, just as I don't like crying if I'm sad/deeply disappointed but I acknowledge that this a rather old school way of behaving.

True tears of joy can be a lot of emotion coming out, it can also be a release of pressure. For example if Murray wins a slam, he will cry his eyes out, but i'm not sure its 'only' joy, it would be an outpouring of all that pent-up emotion. When Nadal Won wimbledon 2008 he was crying before he got to the net - again i think thats an outpouring of pressure, same with Fed when hes won really.

I doubt Murray would cry but you never know, in front of the Queen? What would her Majesty say?

luciusmann wrote:I doubt Murray would cry but you never know, in front of the Queen? What would her Majesty say?

He already cried when losing though - he'll have a sniffle i bet!