England Back Row

Englands 15 is pretty settled.

The centres are the main concern....but I think most expect it to be Hape and Tindall.

The other area for me is the back row. We have several options here, but im not sure what the best one actually is. Who would you plump for.

6's: Croft, Johnson
6/7's : Robshaw, Wood, Haskell,Moody
7's: Armitage, Saul, Fourie
8's: Crane, Easter, Guest, Fearns

Any i have missed?

Some missed ones:

6. Phil Dowson (Northampton), James Gaskell (Sale)
7. Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
8: Luke Narraway (Gloucester), Danny Paul (Leeds),


It shows the paucity at no.8 that I'm left considering players like Danny Paul, who hardly played last season....



For the World Cup I would go with:

6. Croft/ Wood (Whoever is in better form)
7. Fourie
8. Easter


Post world cup I would go for:

6. Croft
7. Wood or AN Other
8. Fearns

I would like to think that the flankers are 2 of the positions that are genuinely up for grabs for the World Cup, but I can't help thinking it will just be Croft and Moody (C). Not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it will matter how anyone plays in the warm-ups.

You missed out Worsley who, like it or not (and pretty much everyone is in the second camp), is in the training squad.

I like the idea of Croft and Wood as the flankers, especially if we have Attwood and Lawes as our second rows, with a "hard-yards" eight such as Jordan Crane, although looking at the training squad we won't get a set-up like that before the World Cup.

I'd be surprised if the WC back-row 5 wasn't as follows:

Croft, Haskell, Moody, Wood and Easter.

MJ is a consistent selector, and each of these guys have played well under him. I wouldn't expect any surprises.

I also don't think the "post-WC" side will be radically different. Can't see any of the above retiring after the WC, unless Moody is forced to through injury.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd be surprised if the WC back-row 5 wasn't as follows:

Croft, Haskell, Moody, Wood and Easter.

MJ is a consistent selector, and each of these guys have played well under him. I wouldn't expect any surprises.

I also don't think the "post-WC" side will be radically different. Can't see any of the above retiring after the WC, unless Moody is forced to through injury.

Agreed - I expect it to be those 5 with 6. Croft 7. Moody and 8. Easter as the first choice line up.

Then post WC I'd like to see Wood come in for Moody and some experimenting at No. 8 to find a replacement for Easter

Well if Guest can seize the moment whilst Easter is away, then he may well end up relegated Easter to the bench at Quins. If that happens, then I think it's safe to assume that MJ may be persuaded to look elsewhere, with the incumbent at Leicester, be it Waldrom or Crane, probably the favourite to succeed.

Fearns and Narraway would presumably also be in the reckoning and never discount a bolter. Look at how quickly Tom Wood has risen to prominence.

Just a small point but Cumbrian, do you really see Gibson as an openside?

Gibson started out as an openside in the London Irish academy Munsty and deputised there for Armitage a few times last season.

He can play 6, 7 or 8. At the moment I would say his best position is on the blindside, but I suspect that long term he might end up at 8.

Yeah Pete, I remember him playing there but I thought that was only out of necessity. He just seems far too tall to play in that position.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fearns and Narraway would presumably also be in the reckoning and never discount a bolter. Look at how quickly Tom Wood has risen to prominence.

Indeed a bolter could well get the role - not least Wood himself, who has said his favourite position is No 8. Him or another flanker could easily come into the reckoning if they bulked up - like Dayglo did in fact...

Fearns won't be guarenteed a starting spot at Bath, not by a long way and probably not even during the World Cup, so lets not get ahead of ourselves! Glad to hear so much positivity about him though.

Bath 1st choice
6. Louw
7. Moody
8. Taylor/Skirving

During WC
6. Louw/Skirving
7. Mercer/Louw
8. Taylor/Skirving

Fearns will have to impress in pre-season to get ahead in the pecking order, which i imagine to be as follows:

Moody
Taylor
Skirving
Louw
Mercer
Fearns

Fearns has the advantage of playing 6,7,8 though of course!

MBTGOG wrote:Yeah Pete, I remember him playing there but I thought that was only out of necessity. He just seems far too tall to play in that position.

He is tall and I don't think it is his best position, but he does a decent job there. Has huge potential and once he goes full time with London Irish will get better and better.

Pete,

I agree totally and I think he is someone Irish can genuinely be very excited about.

Bathite,

Do you really believe players like Skirving and Mercer are ahead of Fearns? An Louw being behind Skirving and Taylor?

I do think Wood looked good during the 6n...and was one of the only ones to really put in a good performance against the irish.

Think Croft is a dead on for 6, as is Easter for 8.

For me the only position open is 7.

ANd i personally think your looking at:
Haskell v Wood v Moody v Robshaw

Robshaw doesnt seem to really impress MJ so i think he falls out.

Haskell is a definate as he covers all the back row spots and actually played well in the 6n.

But Moody is captain. If he's fit i guess he'll start...but i think id rather go with Wood.

MJ's Choice
6 Croft
7 Moody
8 Easter

Mine
6 Croft
7 Wood
8 Easter

Err can anyone spell Waldrom? Hes in the 45 squad.

I agree that the guys who go tot the world cup though will be Easter Moody Croft (as the first choice, the guys in possesion) with Haskell covering the entire backrow (his preferred position is now 7 bizzarely) plus one other .. I guess Wood but Worsley or Waldrom is always possible too. I dont see Robshaw making it.

Personally, I don't see beyond Croft, Easter and Moody being the back row pick with Haskell and Wood in the squad.
Of the rest, there are some good players there and Waldrom in particular is an interesting mention, but he would need to play outstandingly in the WC warm up games to force himself into contention. Also, I'd suggest that the quotes on here about Crane being a hard yards man are misguided - at international level this is the facet of his game that is most lacking.

Yes, I can't believe Fearns will be behind Skirving and Taylor for the Bath 8 shirt for long (if at-all).

I think LI should sign Haskell to play 7 for them and perhaps Gray to understudy 8 (although I believe they have some very exciting youngsters coming through in the backrow). Gibson is definitely one of the most exciting young players in England, but 7 isn't his strongest position.

Also, I'd suggest that the quotes on here about Crane being a hard yards man are misguided - at international level this is the facet of his game that is most lacking.

On the basis of what though? People always seem to dismiss Crane as having been tried and found wanting at international level but he's barely played! Does anyone know how many minutes he's got? I bet it's not many.

In the Saxons he's regularly a stand-out player and he makes hard yards in the Premiership and HC against some of the best players in the game, so I think he deserves a bit more of a chance at international rugby before being written off as not up to it.

MBTGOG wrote:Just a small point but Cumbrian, do you really see Gibson as an openside?

Not in the traditional sense, no. But England don't seem to be particularly good at bringing through the traditional limpet style open-sides. I think he could be a decent in this position because from what I've seen (limited though it is) he has a good rugby brain on him and has the strength/ athleticism to get himself to the right places at the right times on the pitch.

The difference between Crane and Wladrom is that one is in the 45 man squad and the other isnt.

As for Crane being found wanting at international level youll have to ask Martin Johnosn about that I guess, certainly he seems to have a differnet opinion to the Saxons coach and Cockerill on the issue of how good he is.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

Also, I'd suggest that the quotes on here about Crane being a hard yards man are misguided - at international level this is the facet of his game that is most lacking.

On the basis of what though? People always seem to dismiss Crane as having been tried and found wanting at international level but he's barely played! Does anyone know how many minutes he's got? I bet it's not many.

In the Saxons he's regularly a stand-out player and he makes hard yards in the Premiership and HC against some of the best players in the game, so I think he deserves a bit more of a chance at international rugby before being written off as not up to it.

Crane has played off the bench twice for England, against SA in 2008 and Argentina in 2009, neither game gave him much of a chance to show his skills as he only came on at the end.

snoopster wrote:Indeed a bolter could well get the role - not least Wood himself, who has said his favourite position is No 8. Him or another flanker could easily come into the reckoning if they bulked up - like Dayglo did in fact...

I don't think I've ever seen Wood play a significant part of a match at 8, what's he like, better than Haskell there?

I think the starting backrow will and should be Croft, Moody, Easter. I suspect Johnson will then go for Haskell on the bench for most backrow cover. Haskell really stepped up in the 6N, but of the two of them, I'd be more loathed not to include Wood in the 22.

Moody isn't my favourite player, but at this stage he's probably the best option at openside. I'd be intrigued to see if Croft & Wood both on the flanks works. It would be great if it does, but I have a niggling feeling that the balance isn't quite right. Mind you, I've felt the balance has been off for a while.

I don't care what number they wear on their back, we're definitely missing a wily breakdown specialist. Fourie seems to be the only player that really fulfills that role, but in the few appearances he has made, although he has been quite good individually, I remain to be convinced he works as part of the system of the current team. Plus he seems a bit of a short term answer and I'm not a fan of his qualification route.


Post WC I'd like to see Robshaw get some decent game time at 7, not as much a fetcher as I would like, but I think he would balance Croft/Wood well on the other side in most aspects of the game, and I'd be pretty happy with a rotation between the three of them starting and occupying the bench. I'd love Rees to be an option, but who knows if he will ever make it back to where he was. I'd be far from unhappy with Johnson, I just wish he had risen to prominence a year or two earlier. Saull looks like he will be a few more years in the making.

Guest is the player I want to see phased in for Easter. He had a superb season before his injuries, and with the ability to play 8 & 6 just as well, he's a great option to build game time from the bench. I think he combines well with Robshaw's physicality and doggedness to provide a backrow with plenty of attacking force and ability to interlink more effectively with the backs. If both Croft & Wood were on the flanks I'd probably go for Crane (or Fearns if he comes on like he promises).

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

Also, I'd suggest that the quotes on here about Crane being a hard yards man are misguided - at international level this is the facet of his game that is most lacking.

On the basis of what though? People always seem to dismiss Crane as having been tried and found wanting at international level but he's barely played! Does anyone know how many minutes he's got? I bet it's not many.

In the Saxons he's regularly a stand-out player and he makes hard yards in the Premiership and HC against some of the best players in the game, so I think he deserves a bit more of a chance at international rugby before being written off as not up to it.

I think you answer your own question as his international appearances to date have showed him to be not up there at the top level. He's a good runner with ball in hand and has tremendous pace for a back-rower, but he's not strong enough at the moment to dominate high level opponents. A good club player and a good Saxons player, but doesn't cut-the-mustard at the top.

johnpartle wrote:I don't think I've ever seen Wood play a significant part of a match at 8, what's he like, better than Haskell there?

I've not seen it either, just the quote from him that he prefers to play there - at the moment I think his size would limit him there unless he was playing with a couple of big flankers. I'd fancy him to be pretty good though if he did add the size, he seems to be an intelligent player with good basic skills.

SneakySideStep wrote:I think you answer your own question as his international appearances to date have showed him to be not up there at the top level. He's a good runner with ball in hand and has tremendous pace for a back-rower, but he's not strong enough at the moment to dominate high level opponents. A good club player and a good Saxons player, but doesn't cut-the-mustard at the top.

I think you must be mixing Crane up with someone else. Or not seen him actually play.
Either way, he's not got great pace by any standards - he's slow and physical rather than fast and lightweight as you seem to think.

yappysnap wrote:Crane has played off the bench twice for England, against SA in 2008 and Argentina in 2009, neither game gave him much of a chance to show his skills as he only came on at the end.

He also started the 2009 AI match against Australia.

MBTGOG wrote:Pete,

I agree totally and I think he is someone Irish can genuinely be very excited about.

Bathite,

Do you really believe players like Skirving and Mercer are ahead of Fearns? An Louw being behind Skirving and Taylor?

As it stands yes, not on paper, but surely the newcomers have to prove themselves to get the shirt, especially if the incumbent is in form. I would really hope so anyways.

Skirving ahead of Fearns atm in my opinion, finished the season very strong. Mercer ahead as an out and out 7, but no where else. Louw will start i would imagine, just depends where skirving and or taylor play, as strong rumours they might have to help out in the second row.

Are you not thinking of Croft, who is exceptional quick, but who some think he is not strong enough at the break down.

Others of course would disagree with that and say his pace gets him to the breakdowns quick and that he is improving that part of his game rapidly.

If we were to play Wood and Croft at flank, then you simply have to have Easter / Crane or a big powerful 8 to compensate.

Though i do feel that Wood is alot more powerful than his appearance may suggest.

If we were to play Wood and Croft at flank, then you simply have to have Easter / Crane or a big powerful 8 to compensate.

I agree. Our back row can look underpowered at times but I think we could get away with Croft and Wood if we had a strong 8, and two ball-carriers (Lawes and Attwood) at 4 and 5.

I disagree Snoopster and I have seen him play many times. Crane's linking role in open play is good - it's in the contact situations that he is found wanting.

SneakySideStep wrote:I disagree Snoopster and I have seen him play many times. Crane's linking role in open play is good - it's in the contact situations that he is found wanting.

Fair enough - I've seen a lot of Crane as well and clearly we have extremely different opinions about his basic physical attributes. I think you are the first person I know of who doesn't add "lacking" to the front of "pace" when describing Crane though
His linking play isn't bad by any means - his basic skills are very good though not in the class of an 8 like Waldrom but he's someone who enjoys the physical side of the game much more so tends to concentrate on that too much in my opinion.

johnpartle wrote:

I think the starting backrow will and should be Croft, Moody, Easter. I suspect Johnson will then go for Haskell on the bench for most backrow cover. Haskell really stepped up in the 6N, but of the two of them, I'd be more loathed not to include Wood in the 22.

Moody isn't my favourite player, but at this stage he's probably the best option at openside.

Got to agree with that, and most of what you said afterwards. Moody isn't my favourite player, but unless someone shows some unbelievable form in the warm-up games, I would definitely start the first World Cup game against Argentina with Lewis Moody as captain playing at 7. Starting with Croft, Moody and Easter in the "big games" (Argentina and Scotland), I'd definitely look to limit them all to 3 starts in the World Cup pool stages.

If we take the 5 we're all expecting to take, I would look at something like:

Vs Argentina [Croft, Moody (C), Easter - Haskell.]
Vs Georgia [Wood, Haskell, Easter - Moody. <Tindall (C)>]
Vs Romania [Croft, Moody (C), Haskell - Wood.]

Then the strongest team against Scotland and in the knock-outs. I just think our back row is going to have to get through a lot of work, so we need to rotate them against Georgia and Romania.

Yeah, I have to agree with snoopster. I definitely think Crane has a role to play in the future England setup, but pacy he is not, even for a backrow. His link work has definitely improved this season, but it's his work in the tight and at set piece that is more noticeable. As snoopster alludes, he needs to mix his play up a bit more for my liking and not rely so much on his physical strength. You can't be too predictable in international rugby, defences are too good at the top level.

robbo277 wrote:

Vs Argentina [Croft, Moody (C), Easter - Haskell.]
Vs Georgia [Wood, Haskell, Easter - Moody. <Tindall (C)>]
Vs Romania [Croft, Moody (C), Haskell - Wood.]

Then the strongest team against Scotland and in the knock-outs. I just think our back row is going to have to get through a lot of work, so we need to rotate them against Georgia and Romania.

Yeah, that looks right to me. Easter is certainly going to have to be marshalled well, if he gets injured we are in serious trouble. There might be a number of people who think there are better players, but no one has the recent international game time, and Johnson's backups are Worsley & Waldrom.

In terms of rotation, I think you'll certainly be able to rest a few first choicers against Romania. The key to rotation for you guys is beating Argentina with the 1st XV in your first match. If you manage to do that, then I think you'll be able to afford to rest players in the following two fixtures. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to Georgia or Romania, but you should be able to win those games without all first choice players.

As well as changing the starting line-ups, you'll also be able to give players maybe 40 minute stints in those middle games, so that players can stay fresh for the business end (against us).

We have Argentina followed by you guys, which I think is more challenging in terms of logistics. That said, if we beat Argentina, then hopefully we'll be through.....

I think some of the injuries we've suffered over the last year or so have really allowed us to build some depth, especially in the forwards. After all players like Tom Wood probably wouldn't have come in were it not for injuries.

Looking again at my back row rotation, we have our "strongest" back row in the first game, our Six Nations back row in the second game and two of our strongest back row in the third game, with just Easter being rested.

Over the last year Corbisiero, Sheridan, Hartley, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Palmer, Deacon, Croft, Moody, Wood, Haskell, Fourie, Easter, Youngs, Flood, Hape, Tindall, Banahan, Cueto, Ashton and Foden have started tests. We can add players like Stevens, Shaw, Care and Wilkinson to make a World Cup squad.

I think it's important that England make a running start to the World Cup and beat Argentina, otherwise we'll be chasing and scrapping all the way through the pool stage just to make it through and then hopefully to avoid New Zealand in the quarters.

With bonus points potentially crucial in this pool, I think Scotland do have a tough ask. They've got two games in 4 days against the "minnows", and should be looking to take 10 points. Then they have Argentina and England in consecutive weeks, however I'd back Scotland to beat Argentina and get 3 wins from their first 3 games, even if they don't manage to take bonus point wins against Georgia and Romania.

I agree with the prognosis of Croft, Moody, and Easter being MJ's first choice for the world cup, probably with Wood or Haskell on the bench, but I've REALLY liked the look of Fourie when I've see him.

I'd be happier with Haskell, Fourie, and Easter, and Croft on the bench, but I can't see it happening.