Putting and Putters.

First topic message reminder :

I'm throwing away so many shots with my putting its getting silly.
As stated in another thread,i've been playing after a 20 year lay off.
I've replaced all my old gear with newer gear and am pleased with the way its all gone so far,except for the putting.
I'm using a Taylormade Rossa Daytona,which,seems to be decent enough,but i can't hole anything over 4 feet.
I'm knocking it way passed the hole,or short.
I was choking the daylights out of it with my grip,but i've stopped doing that.I'm rocking the shoulders,slowly back and feel the weight of the practice putt on the forward swing,making sure there no body movement.
Maybe its not the right putter for me.
What i'm after is some advice about putters.
I don't remember Odysey's or Scotty's when i played all those years ago.
I'm going down the local golf shop later this week,so,what putters do you use or recomend i try.
It may be that its just me,although it goes OK down the hallway carpet(about 10 on the stintmeter)
As i'm writing this,it would appear i've lost confidence in the putter i have.
Belly or broomstick putters are out of the question.I won't use them,Conventional or nothing.
Any other advice appreciated.

Nay Bother wrote:A putter for £550 i would be in a perma rage if i had that putter as i would be expecting to never miss a putt.

Thinking about it would probably drive, pitch, chip, with it to.

After doing a bit of research about these putters, and not hearing back from anyone, I decided to dive in and get it. Some of the stuff I read up on:
http://www.equip2golf.com/?p=3765
http://www.sandbox8.com/2011/01/18/behind-the-scenes-inside-bettinardi-golf/

If I don't like I'll easily get my money back selling it on £140

Looks like my old Ping that I sold for a tenner. I'd take that American sticker off if I was you.

Yup....pretty much looks like the old Ping Answer but with a milled face. Let us know how it performs.

I would hope for that money that it has changeable weights, changeable shaft, changeable head, changeable grip, is advertised on every other magazine page, has 5 adverts an hour on sky sports and is endorsed by a host of tour players wearing a hat/shirt/glove/belt with the logo.

Seriously, had a Bettinardi and used it for one round and an hour on the putting green. Felt nice, good weight etc but just didn't like it - personal preference, exactly like every aspect of putting...

That bettarndi looks totally identical to a cameron circa '62 number 2 (I think it's that model)... even down to the finish.

As for the comments you can putt with anything. Yes. You can putt with anything. But some things will make it easier than other depending on how you stand up to the ball, your stroke and lots of other things.So whilst that 70 year old and his crazygolfspecial might be a great story it's probably still in use because it works for him. I bet it wouldn't do half as well for anyone else though.

I'll stick with my personalised Newport Beach thanks... regardless of how little difference the grip, shaft length, weighting I've added and everything else people may think is irrelevant. I've turned something I loved the look and feel of (but which I was unable to hole a three footer with) into a weapon no-one else is even allowed to handle for too long before I want it back in my hands

LJ

Sounds to me like you are sleeping with it, has your better half found out yet, and if not, how much will you pay me to keep my mouth shut.:shooter:

oldparwin wrote:LJ

Sounds to me like you are sleeping with it, has your better half found out yet, and if not, how much will you pay me to keep my mouth shut.:shooter:

OPW. Why do you think she was so upset with me when I put a thinner grip on it.

When it comes to putters I am reminded of the line in the movie called The Dead Pool and Dirty Harry says

"Well, opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one."

That just about sums it up here

LJ up until yesterday I'd never heard of this company, and then did a bit of research and looked at some of the stuff they knock out. All high-end stuff and well made, well it would be for the prices for some of the putters. I also discovered that the Scotty Tiger used for years (Still uses from time to time) was made by Betternadi as he did most of the design and manufacture for them. So would suspect that you might be spot on with your comment, as Betti' actuall say the BB25 is a classic blade made better .... They were then taken over by Mizuno and they had some Muzzy putters with Betti' logo's, before moving away and going independant.

Anybody want to take it off my hands if it doesn't work for me?

Doc wrote:LJ up until yesterday I'd never heard of this company, and then did a bit of research and looked at some of the stuff they knock out. All high-end stuff and well made, well it would be for the prices for some of the putters. I also discovered that the Scotty Tiger used for years (Still uses from time to time) was made by Betternadi as he did most of the design and manufacture for them. So would suspect that you might be spot on with your comment, as Betti' actuall say the BB25 is a classic blade made better .... They were then taken over by Mizuno and they had some Muzzy putters with Betti' logo's, before moving away and going independant.

Anybody want to take it off my hands if it doesn't work for me?

I'd be interested to see where you got that particular piece of info on a bettinardi made Scotty Cameron.

LJ The 2nd link was not the one I saw earlier, but this piece also confirms it. The 1st link shows the putter he made for Tiger at Nike???

http://www.thehackersparadise.com/forum/showthread.php?4669-Bettinardi-Nike-Tiger-Woods-Proto

http://www.cdga.org/pdf/Magicwands.pdf

Can't see the pictures but I don't know what that says other than Bettinardi has worked with Scotty in the past. I was aware that everything Cameron made was sent out to 3rd parties for manufacture... but I doubt that Bettinardi had anything to do with Tigers putter. Particularly since the last words in the pdf indicate that TW is a problem for him in that he and his cameron keep winning everything (pre 2009 of course)

Quite conflicting those 2 links as LJ say regarding the last part of thte PDF Tigers cameron being a problem.

Yet the images of the putter clearly show on the sole of it the Bettinardi detailings and stamps to show who manufactured! Maybe it was a private bit of work as tiger didn't like the cameron offerings so they comissioned bettinardi to make him one with Nike Swoosh and then get him to release that statement to distance himself from them! Very odd

Mav/LJ even more confusing, this is a yank forum talking about the same thing

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/forum/topic/22604-bettinardi-left-cameron-or-the-other-way-round-set-the-record-straight/

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/art.../precision-play

I think the 2nd link gets nearer the facts and is interesting as well.

Interesting point one of the posters on that YAnkee forum said the following

"Bettinardi made all of the Camerons from 1990 to 1998. In 1998, they had a falling out and Cameron stayed with Titleist and Bettinardi started Bettinardi Golf. Bettinardi made putters on his own from 1998 to 2002 and in 2003 to 2005, Bettinardi made all of the production putter for Ben Hogan and in 2006, Bettinardi started making production putters for Mizuno. I hope this helps. "

If thats true then that would answer the question and be why they sill get him to make Tigers on the hush!

Mav heres another snippet, that seems to show one of the reasons for the big fall out:

"It is also in the Internet forums where collectors learned of many things such as: Bettinardi used to mill for Cameron but quit when Cameron wanted to go more mass market, or that Cameron outsources his production to other machine shops with a few lines being in the past being done in Asia. Meanwhile, Bettinardi still mills and produces putters (even his Mizunos), in the same Chicago facility where he is located so he can keep an eye on the ball all the time".

Mav had you heard of this guy before?

Wow it gets even better:

Looking at the big picture, there are much more people leaving the Cameron fold and going to boutique putter makers compared to new people joining the Cameron-loving ranks. There is no question that Cameron is losing his fanbase quickly, not to mention his tour presence. In the PGA, there is a big decrease in top pros using his putter while in other worldwide tours, he doesn't have that strong a presence at all.

"So a lot of things are coming together today that would bring about the fall of the Cameron Empire: (1) top players in the world no longer using his putter; (2) realization that Cameron lacks skill with his original designs; (3) overpricing of custom shop and tour merchandise to maximize profits at the expense of the loyal collector; (4) the rise of cheaper, but better or same quality, alternatives in the form of custom boutique putter makers; (5) the rise of other milled putters in the market (Odyssey Black Series, Nike Unitized, Macgregor Bobby Grace, Mizuno Bettinardi, Ping Redwood) to give buyers more alternatives; (6) the GSS debate and the current eBay Camenardi denials and other internet issues that have exposed Cameron's questionable practices and intentions, (7) the realization that Cameron's production putters cut corners and are outsourced while some of his rivals like Bettinardi refuse to compromise, and (8) the rise of technological innovation in putter designs such a roll-face technologies and high-MOI's that Cameron has not jumped into yet and will be too late when he does".

Have I heard of the guy before? I take it you mean Bettinardi?

Yes I have, he's been around for sometime now, I knew of his associations with Mizuno and that he made his own Bettinardi brand a big standout is his stamping and usually black (dark headed) putters. I also knew how good and highly priced they were just never been able to persuade Mrs mav to let me spend that much on one!

Was totally unaware of the Cameron connection though, I used a Cali Del Mar for years, and when my sticks were stolen had one to replace it but have say to say it's not the same and have been disappointed with it to the extent its not in my bag now as just does not feel the same quality of the old one which i've had years, currently using an Odyysey Black which again is ok, but looking for that something special Bettinardi could be it but its the purse strings now Mrs Mav has another in the oven, so may have to settl for going back to my YES Emma for a little while

All very interesting... but obviously cameron does have a hand in the design and manufacture of some of his putters. With the mass produced stuff outsourced according to those articles.

I find it interesting however that regardless of who is doing the work on the putters no-one has been able to reproduce the feel from tigers cameron exactly. Apparently scotty has made 3 or 4 identical putters each year and they all get binned.

LondonJonnyO wrote:All very interesting... but obviously cameron does have a hand in the design and manufacture of some of his putters. With the mass produced stuff outsourced according to those articles.

I find it interesting however that regardless of who is doing the work on the putters no-one has been able to reproduce the feel from tigers cameron exactly. Apparently scotty has made 3 or 4 identical putters each year and they all get binned.

LJ I guess its what's been said from the first post on this thread, and also on the yank forums. Its all down to what feels good for you at the time. Mav has the same problem, loved his old bat until it walked, and tried to replace it but with dire results. I've heard the term 'over-engineered' many times, but guess it would be almost impossible to mill a slab of steel to a particular template, and then replicate it twice exactly. Yes it will look exactly the same, weigh the same, have the detail in exactly the same place but it would be very, very slightly different. Its like trying out a driver and saying I want this, but the guy says I need to order you one. No I want that one as i know the one ordered will be slightly different .... The putter when milled is almost hand-made by one person, and therefore you would need to get one made by the same bloke, not his mate, and even then it wouldn't be an exact replica.

Doc wrote:
LJ I guess its what's been said from the first post on this thread, and also on the yank forums. Its all down to what feels good for you at the time. Mav has the same problem, loved his old bat until it walked, and tried to replace it but with dire results. I've heard the term 'over-engineered' many times, but guess it would be almost impossible to mill a slab of steel to a particular template, and then replicate it twice exactly. Yes it will look exactly the same, weigh the same, have the detail in exactly the same place but it would be very, very slightly different. Its like trying out a driver and saying I want this, but the guy says I need to order you one. No I want that one as i know the one ordered will be slightly different .... The putter when milled is almost hand-made by one person, and therefore you would need to get one made by the same bloke, not his mate, and even then it wouldn't be an exact replica.

Exactly the issue i have, same putter, same length same weight, she jsut don't feel the same though, it's like sleeping with your mrs twin sister, looks good, you wanna give it a good go, but some reason it just don't feel the same when holing out!

So looks like I will have to find a new mistress sorry errr putter

Maverick wrote:

Doc wrote:
LJ I guess its what's been said from the first post on this thread, and also on the yank forums. Its all down to what feels good for you at the time. Mav has the same problem, loved his old bat until it walked, and tried to replace it but with dire results. I've heard the term 'over-engineered' many times, but guess it would be almost impossible to mill a slab of steel to a particular template, and then replicate it twice exactly. Yes it will look exactly the same, weigh the same, have the detail in exactly the same place but it would be very, very slightly different. Its like trying out a driver and saying I want this, but the guy says I need to order you one. No I want that one as i know the one ordered will be slightly different .... The putter when milled is almost hand-made by one person, and therefore you would need to get one made by the same bloke, not his mate, and even then it wouldn't be an exact replica.

Exactly the issue i have, same putter, same length same weight, she jsut don't feel the same though, it's like sleeping with your mrs twin sister, looks good, you wanna give it a good go, but some reason it just don't feel the same when holing out!

So looks like I will have to find a new mistress sorry errr putter

If they are identical you can never tell until you've tried it if there is something different.

Was certainly the case with my putter

was just reading about a 100k odyssey putter

It has 18-carat white gold body with 240 rubies and 378 diiamonds but remains true to the original 2-ball in terms of balance and weight,

not sure it would help anybodys game ha ha,