The economy and my kids and Rugby

Well let's face it. The Euro may well go into a cinder. Probably France, Germany and (maybe Italy) plus the NW European Scandacountries may well plod on whilst they hang the rest out to dry.

And all the time rugby gets more expansionist. Tri (4) nations here and an HEC there and a far-flung RWC there and every traveller leaves a co2 footprint.

Is anyone else worried?

My concern is that rugby actively promotes unnecessary travel by players and (the even less necessary) fans.

The Earth is going to Hell on a hand-cart. And all the while we promote CO2 negatives whilst we could juat sit at home and watch the telly.

Slow day?

Carpe Diem wrote:Slow day?

We'll see.

can someone just delete this article now

Whats the argument your making Portnoy? I can't follow it.

Portnoy, I get it.

you are blaming the cash cows for not only the ruin of rugby, but also green house gasses.

Perhaps the solution is to not have as many competitions.

The fact is there is already too much rugby and the calender is bursting.

The Six Nations and Tri Nations should be held on a four year basis, just as the RWC.

Then traditional tours on steamboats should recommence.

As far as limiting the carbon footprint, we should all buy small holdings, do subsistence farming and get of the grid with wind generators and water collection systems.

caoimhincentre wrote:can someone just delete this article now

I can see the point for deleting this article.

But it depends on whether you want to absent rugby from any contribution to global warming.

Tough decision.

Portnoy,if everyone watched telly it would also have a big effect seeing as fossil fuels are used to produce the electricity that runs your tv. Renewable energies need to be developed more. This is really a discussion for off topic though.

Yeah I get it too. We're continuing to expand our sport whilst the economy and the enviroment are going to hell on a hand cart.

Am I worried? Yes.

But what are you goin to do about it? Sport is about escapism and we can't just shut up shop because times are tough. Unnecessary travel isn't going to stop if we cut back on sporting events.

You'd hope that sporting organisations will evaluate there business model based on the economic times, like any other business but at the end of the day the show must go on even if we are on the brink of global economic collapse and catastrophic climate change.

Car crash article.

Im priced out of Wales but not the Ospreys.
My season ticket cost me £165 this season, which is for:

Minimum of 17 home games, 11 Magners, 3 European pool games, 2 LV cup games. + pre season friendly, including 1 game against Russia. + Any Ospreys development teams I wish to go and see.

A free Ospreys replica jersey.

10% discount in the Ospreys shop in the stadium.

Option of having an extra free season ticket if I bring a person Under 16. So you can actually have 2 tickets if you have a child.

Admission to Ospreys supporters club.

Basically if we take away £25 for the cost of the jersey
£165 - 25 = £140
Then divide £140 by 17 home games = 8.25

Basically a ticket to the Ospreys costs £8.25 a game or £4.13 a game if you bring a child with you! You cant really fault that to be honest!

* Edit having read the article again I'm not sure my message is relevant but I'm not sure what direction the initial post is supposed to go in. I'm assuming it's the state of the world economy and cost of living against going to see rugby.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Car crash article.

Yep.

But is it a crash that we can all ignore?

Hopefully in the off-season people will have time to reflect.

Are you Victor Meldrews grumpy brother?

Ok I get the article now. There seems to be 2 issues here.

1) Is rugby a cause of global warming - No more so than any industry

2) Is rugby badly affected by economy - I'd say not particularly.

Maybe others will feel differently.

AlynDavies wrote:Im priced out of Wales but not the Ospreys.
My season ticket cost me £165 this season, which is for:

Minimum of 17 home games, 11 Magners, 3 European pool games, 2 LV cup games. + pre season friendly, including 1 game against Russia. + Any Ospreys development teams I wish to go and see.

A free Ospreys replica jersey.

10% discount in the Ospreys shop in the stadium.

Option of having an extra free season ticket if I bring a person Under 16. So you can actually have 2 tickets if you have a child.

Admission to Ospreys supporters club.

Basically if we take away £25 for the cost of the jersey
£165 - 25 = £140
Then divide £140 by 17 home games = 8.25

Basically a ticket to the Ospreys costs £8.25 a game or £4.13 a game if you bring a child with you! You cant really fault that to be honest!

* Edit having read the article again I'm not sure my message is relevant but I'm not sure what direction the initial post is supposed to go in. I'm assuming it's the state of the world economy and cost of living against going to see rugby.

Maybe not relevant but still informative

Hammer it does show that it is economically viable to support a rugby team. I got tickets to Ireland v France this summer for €30. Next season Munster are making a family ticket 2 adults and 2 kids for €40.

red_stag wrote:Ok I get the article now. There seems to be 2 issues here.

1) Is rugby a cause of global warming - No more so than any industry

2) Is rugby badly affected by economy - I'd say not particularly.

Maybe others will feel differently.

1/10 Stag

1) Is rugby a cause of global warming - No more so than any industry.

Nope. Unnecessary travel (particularly by air and road) contributes.

2) Is rugby badly affected by economy - I'd say not particularly.

When the Euro goes down the toilet - then we'll see.

HammerofThunor wrote:[Maybe not relevant but still informative

Fair play is was a damn fine plug for the Ospreys wasn't it!

Portnoy wrote:
When the Euro goes down the toilet - then we'll see.

Sport didn't stop during the great depression Portnoy.

Do you really think people will reduce their short haul air travel if we cut back on sporting fixtures?

Portnoy wrote:When the Euro goes down the toilet - then we'll see.

You mean IF the Euro goes down the toilet rugby MIGHT be affected.

I can see your point Portney - all those fat boys heaving and grunting away must let off a lot of heat in the scrums, rucks and mauls, which can't be good for the environment.
Other than that, rugby might take a bit of a battering if the Euro goes belly up but rugby will ride it out in the long run.

red_stag wrote:

Since the seventies I've been aware of Global warming.

What I'm shocked about is the total ignorance of anyone of any significance to make a stand.

And you as a an intelligent, young twenty-something should be less dismissive of my concerns.

p.s. If the Euro goes jubblies-up then Ireland might descend into an economic depression that you can't imagine.

And again how is this any worse than football, music industry, films, education, agriculture, manufacturing, tourism etc.

red_stag wrote:

Portnoy wrote:When the Euro goes down the toilet - then we'll see.

You mean IF the Euro goes down the toilet rugby MIGHT be affected.

No I think he means WHEN stag....

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Since the seventies I've been aware of Global warming.

What I'm shocked about is the total ignorance of anyone of any significance to make a stand.

And you as a an intelligent, young twenty-something should be less dismissive of my concerns.

p.s. If the Euro goes jubblies-up then Ireland might descend into an economic depression that you can't imagine.

I'm not dismissive of global warming but life needs to go on too. Its easy point at certain things and cry foul for environment but life needs to go on.

Portnoy yes it could happen of course about economic depressions and if it happens there will be a lot more losing out than rugby.

I just don't see what you are suggesting be done. Disband the tournaments, cancel interntational games, pack up rugby now.

The post is quite confusing because of the reference to the economy at the start. But on the issue of travel, it's part of a much larger problem that is as applicable to all sport not just rugby. In fact, it's a problem that is applicable to our entire society.

So, rugby being just a small part of this, I'm not sure the place for the debate is on the rugby pages. A plague of off-topic posts has descended in the close season!

I'm not being dismissive; it's a big issue for our society and your right that more needs to be done. But... zoning in on rugby, I'm not sure that makes all that much sense.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Since the seventies I've been aware of Global warming.

What I'm shocked about is the total ignorance of anyone of any significance to make a stand.

What stand have you been making Portnoy? Have you been avoiding air travel and travelling about the globe on a bicycle and pedal boat since the 70's?

red_stag wrote:And again how is this any worse than football, music industry, films, education, agriculture, manufacturing, tourism etc.

No way any worse. But a realisation that whatever we contribute to the ruin is real.

You will be the generation that has to explain to your grandchildren the reason why there are water wars raging Africa and Asia.

red_stag wrote:I'm not dismissive of global warming but life needs to go on too. Its easy point at certain things and cry foul for environment but life needs to go on.

Exactly previous generations have caused more than enough problems that we need to deal with, and I'm not prepared to become a Hippy living in a Teepee for the rest of my life.
All the talk of cleaning up the enviroment is pie in the sky, because cow produce the same amount of co2 from farting as the cars in the world, so we talk about making more efficient cars yet we told not to eat too many burgers?
Just try and do your bit by recycling, our local council gives us boxes and bags for various items of waste, that's all we really need to do. If they pushed forward electric or gas cars it would be helpful but with much of the worlds pension funds hedged in oil companies there is no chance!

Portnoy wrote:You will be the generation that has to explain to your grandchildren the reason why there are water wars raging Africa and Asia.

Can we use "Someone who knew about the problems since the 70's waited until 2011 to tell us, sorry about that" as an excuse?

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:And again how is this any worse than football, music industry, films, education, agriculture, manufacturing, tourism etc.

No way any worse. But a realisation that whatever we contribute to the ruin is real.

You will be the generation that has to explain to your grandchildren the reason why there are water wars raging Africa and Asia.

I believe your generation owes us an explanation Portnoy...

I remember reading about a fuel that was developed that released oxygen and water once used. No doubt the patent was bought by the oil companies who won't develop it's use until every drop of oil has been used.

But the Chinese don't give a toss about patents so once the oil prices soar we'll be driving around in cars releasing too much oxygen and complaining about the expanding ice sheets in the arctic.

I also thing that soon scientists can genetically manipulate a fuel into being that could produce pretty much anything as a side effect. Icecream, low fat milk, liquid nitrogen, tiny rugby players that grow in a pot if watered with soya sauce daily and all look like Dan Carter and sound like Brian O'Driscoll. This could solve the travel problem in new ways. Rugby players no longer being entirely human could be duplicated and simultaneously have copies all over the world, only activated of course for rugby occasions, cutting down on travel expenses.

The first paragraph is true by the way.

Intotouch wrote:I remember reading about a fuel that was developed that released oxygen and water once used. No doubt the patent was bought by the oil companies who won't develop it's use until every drop of oil has been used.

But the Chinese don't give a toss about patents so once the oil prices soar we'll be driving around in cars releasing too much oxygen and complaining about the expanding ice sheets in the arctic.

I also thing that soon scientists can genetically manipulate a fuel into being that could produce pretty much anything as a side effect. Icecream, low fat milk, liquid nitrogen, tiny rugby players that grow in a pot if watered with soya sauce daily and all look like Dan Carter and sound like Brian O'Driscoll. This could solve the travel problem in new ways. Rugby players no longer being entirely human could be duplicated and simultaneously have copies all over the world, only activated of course for rugby occasions, cutting down on travel expenses.

The first paragraph is true by the way.

You refer to hydrogen fuel cells. We've already got em. V expensive though.

Carpe Diem wrote:You refer to hydrogen fuel cells. We've already got em. V expensive though.

So is putting a large drill in an ocean. But do it enough times....

I get the article too. There are a lot of rich clubs out there, but then also a lot of pooer clubs. I often wonder if they may start to struggle in the current climate. I'm thinking Gwent Dragons, Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc. in the ML. The game is expanding in terms of playing numbers, interest, but also the destinations of teams in leagues. The Dragons play in the Magners League (or newly title Robocop V2, or something) and thus spend half the season in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, and in the European comp we'll be in Italy and France too this season. Now, with increased travel costs caused by hikes in tax for carbon emissions, etc. at some point poorer teams may not be able to afford the travel to fulfil fixtures. I can't begin to imagine the cost of sending a squad of players, coaches, analysts, physios, etc. abroad on a plane every other week of the season. Must be immense!

The game's expanding and becoming inter-continental, but costs are spiralling and income generation is harder (fans less able to afford tickets, businesses less able to afford to sponsor teams, etc.) so are we going to see a need to revert to home country competitions only? Or will the rich teams enter a league with the other rich teams???

greybeard wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:You refer to hydrogen fuel cells. We've already got em. V expensive though.

So is putting a large drill in an ocean. But do it enough times....

My meaning was that it has not been economically viable to develop them further until now. As technology improves more systems become available, unforunately more invasive drilling techniques become viable as well.

Don't see what this has to do with hoofing a funny shaped ball about but hey.

Surely the best solution is to just get all the New Zealanders, Safricans, and Pislanders to move to England

oh.....

Careful, you know who'll be along in a second...

Griff wrote:I get the article too. There are a lot of rich clubs out there, but then also a lot of pooer clubs. I often wonder if they may start to struggle in the current climate. I'm thinking Gwent Dragons, Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc. in the ML. The game is expanding in terms of playing numbers, interest, but also the destinations of teams in leagues. The Dragons play in the Magners League (or newly title Robocop V2, or something) and thus spend half the season in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, and in the European comp we'll be in Italy and France too this season. Now, with increased travel costs caused by hikes in tax for carbon emissions, etc. at some point poorer teams may not be able to afford the travel to fulfil fixtures. I can't begin to imagine the cost of sending a squad of players, coaches, analysts, physios, etc. abroad on a plane every other week of the season. Must be immense!

The game's expanding and becoming inter-continental, but costs are spiralling and income generation is harder (fans less able to afford tickets, businesses less able to afford to sponsor teams, etc.) so are we going to see a need to revert to home country competitions only? Or will the rich teams enter a league with the other rich teams???

I love this post. It puts my argument from a completely different angle.

But it means the same.

Hydrogen fuelled vehicles produce water as a by-product, that technology already exists and is being used, in fact I remember seeing a hydrogen fuelled bus driving round London, the problem with hydrogen is its safe storage (Hindenburg disaster).

If there is excess oxygen in the atmosphere then you should worry more about fire than expanding ice sheets.

But back to the point about rugby, it’s a fact that people want to & like to travel, look at the amount of SANZAR’s living in the UK, following your team be it locally round your native country or internationally is just one of the reasons for travelling, but let’s face facts it ain’t cheap, so will always be relatively low level compared to worldwide travel patterns.

The recession will generally affect the amount of away fans travel to games simply because some will have lost their jobs or need to tighten their belt and therefore be unable to afford the travel or may be more committed to weekend overtime working to help make ends meet.

Will I worry about my carbon foot print if I go to Aus, NZ or SA to follow the Lions, no I won’t because it will, over my lifetime, have a relatively small impact on my total carbon foot print.

If I am lucky enough to be able to follow England & the Lions abroad then I would have enough money to buy carbon offsets, solar panels and any number of other carbon saving technologies to ensure I have a minimal carbon footprint

G2 wrote:Hydrogen fuelled vehicles produce water as a by-product, that technology already exists and is being used, in fact I remember seeing a hydrogen fuelled bus driving round London, the problem with hydrogen is its safe storage (Hindenburg disaster).

If there is excess oxygen in the atmosphere then you should worry more about fire than expanding ice sheets.

But back to the point about rugby, it’s a fact that people want to & like to travel, look at the amount of SANZAR’s living in the UK, following your team be it locally round your native country or internationally is just one of the reasons for travelling, but let’s face facts it ain’t cheap, so will always be relatively low level compared to worldwide travel patterns.

The recession will generally affect the amount of away fans travel to games simply because some will have lost their jobs or need to tighten their belt and therefore be unable to afford the travel or may be more committed to weekend overtime working to help make ends meet.

Will I worry about my carbon foot print if I go to Aus, NZ or SA to follow the Lions, no I won’t because it will, over my lifetime, have a relatively small impact on my total carbon foot print.

If I am lucky enough to be able to follow England & the Lions abroad then I would have enough money to buy carbon offsets, solar panels and any number of other carbon saving technologies to ensure I have a minimal carbon footprint

Which essentially makes you a denial freak. Keep spending the carbon mate. There will be no consequence

Quick aisde here....how will Wales fare in any major sea rise bought about by global climate change? Im still weighing up whether Im for or against?

Obviosuly Snowdonia will be OK still which is great for my holidays and hillwalking, but can we lose Cardiff and Llanelli?

Hi, I do research into wind turbines.

The next bit is just for interest for people, not really relevent but sounds like you might be interested. If not, skip to the smiley:

Wind turbines are pretty much the only renewables that work at the moment to a high enough standard to be used on the grid and are available in the UK. Wave/Tidal may be better long term/in theory, but it isn't ready yet for massive deployment. The UK is currently expanding it's (mainly offshore) wind turbines at a phenomenal rate, aiming for 20% of electricity from renewables by 2020 (though they won't hit it I'm fairly sure. As part of this for example, the whole of Dogger Bank is going to be covered in wind turbines in phase three of the plan (soon to be starting).

Doing your bit (not driving when you can walk/cycle/bus/subway, using the train instead of flying, turning your thermostat down by a degree or two etc can be massively useful if lots of people do it. The analogy with cows is all well and good, but we can't reduce cow emissions without impacting on our food supply. There have been some fairly low key campaigns for people to reduce how much meat they eat to reduce carbon emissions, however evidence that this works is debatable (need to grow more of other stuff and harvest etc). We CAN reduce the emissions of our cars however, by driving smaller cars, with less load and a bit slower (also saves you £). Electric or indeed hydrogen powered cars are being developed (I think Honda brought out a hydrogen one but only in California or something stupid like that). There are some plans that would allow people to generate their own hydrogen fuel at home powered off renewable resources. The trouble is we are running late on doing a lot of these things and the economy crashing has kind of made everyone forget about it.

relevant points ahoy!

Rugby is a tiny fraction of the carbon cost to the globe, however doing your bit can reduce the impact. E.g. I am getting the train to Cardiff to watch England Wales and not flying. Going whole hog and stopping these types of things even going ahead or banning people from flying is probably over stepping the mark. In order to control climate change better people need to want to do it. If you stop people doing things they enjoy completely then they won't be on your side and will rebel against it.

As for the economy - if it all goes jubblies up then there will probably be a few clubs that fold and maybe the global game will shrink a little, but it'll hardly be the end of all rugby.

Sorry for massive post, I tried to highlight what was not rugby relevant.

Any impact we have on the Earth will be a minor blip in geological scale. If we make too much damage we'll get wiped out. If we don't know cares. That's karma that is.

Portnoy

Not necessarily
I very rarely use a car
Have not travelled abroad by plane for I think about 8 years
I'm going to invest a lot of my hard earned on solar panels, rather than say spending it on expensive exotic foreign holidays
I've invested alot of my time and money insulating my house & will be spending more next year

screamingaddabs "I do research into wind turbines"

So do I as it happens and power generation in general

and no I don't know how to use the quote thing properly

G2 wrote:screamingaddabs "I do research into wind turbines"

So do I as it happens and power generation in general

and no I don't know how to use the quote thing properly

Just click on quote

Good stuff, it's good to hear I'm not the only one! Where abouts do you work? It's pretty interesting stuff at the moment I think, a lot going on. I'm a mechanical engineer originally though, so I do get a bit lost in the old power electronics...

HammerofThunor wrote:Any impact we have on the Earth will be a minor blip in geological scale.

A bit like getting one grand slam every century (ireland)