Wales training squad cuts

First topic message reminder :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/14131218.stm

"Jonathan Thomas, Andy Powell and Richie Rees have been omitted from Wales' World Cup training preparations, BBC Sport Wales understands.

The three will not be making the trip to Poland on Saturday with the rest of coach Warren Gatland's squad for the last of two 10-day training camps.

Ken Owens, Lou Reed and Andrew Bishop will also be left behind.

But Stephen Jones, who missed the first training camp for the birth of his first child, will be travelling.

Gatland selected an initial 45-man training squad, but the Wales coach has trimmed the numbers down to 35 as he takes the players for a second week of intense training in Spala."


I'm shocked that Rees, Powell and JT have all been cut, but i think on form they're the right choices. I would assume this means that Toby and Devle are set to go, which can only been good news. I'd also assume this means Mike Phillips is a certainty now aswell. I dont think that anyone was expecting Reed or Owens to make the squad. I personally would have prefered to see Owens going over Bennet, but the chances of that were always low. Bishops chances were always low with the form of JD2 and Scott Williams.

Thoughts?

Only one i am surprised at is Richard Rees is not there, relying on Williams and Knoyle as back-ups is frightening.

He is either not fit (gym monkey) or he has told one of the coaches what he thinks, it does not make much sense to me he out played Knoyle in Cardiff and he is first choice at the Blues. Rees's season has been screwed up by the long ban that Welsh players seem to get (12 weeks) playing in the HC. I suspect Peel will be brought in but his time was 2005 like his ex halfback partner.

Heard Rees was the fittest in the stats in the first Polish camp out of the 4 scrumhalves. Something doesnt add up.
Can also assure you Peel wont make the squad.

Rees is the most experienced behind Phillips, so it is rather odd. I thought the 9shirt would be between them for the world cup, with hopefully Lloyd Williams as back-up. Don't rate Knoyle as an international at all. We've seen what Peel's got to offer lately, and it isn't much so he's deservedly well down the pecking order in my one-eyed view.

glamorganalun wrote:He is either not fit (gym monkey) or he has told one of the coaches what he thinks, it does not make much sense to me he out played Knoyle in Cardiff and he is first choice at the Blues. Rees's season has been screwed up by the long ban that Welsh players seem to get (12 weeks) playing in the HC. I suspect Peel will be brought in but his time was 2005 like his ex halfback partner.

I can only assume that you are either jesting with all the posters or you are seriously anti anybody Scarlet .... I understand to an certain extent your stance with Stephen Jones, but to suggest that Rees had the upper hand against Knoyle in either game last season on a 1-2-1 basis beggars belief

October 2010
Cardiff Blues 10-16 Scarlets
"In the meantime Blues scrum-half Rees was sin-binned for deliberately knocking on as Daniel Evans threatened to send Tavis Knoyle on his way to the line."
Knoyle totally out-thought, out-muscled, out-paced Rees throught that match
This was the last match I saw in Wales, and I was with 6 "Blues" work colleagues who all thought the same, Rees played as well as he could but was destroyed by Knoyle.

May 2011
Scarlets 38-23 Blues
Last ML game before the WC training camp
Cardiff were up for a 4th place playoff spot, so no excuses, but were utterly destroyed not so much by the pack, but by the half backs of Knoyle and Jones both who had outstanding games, Knoyle destroyed yet again the myth of a fitness gap between him and Rees (who gave his all on the day)

I really don't understand what games you actually watch

flyhalffactory wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:He is either not fit (gym monkey) or he has told one of the coaches what he thinks, it does not make much sense to me he out played Knoyle in Cardiff and he is first choice at the Blues. Rees's season has been screwed up by the long ban that Welsh players seem to get (12 weeks) playing in the HC. I suspect Peel will be brought in but his time was 2005 like his ex halfback partner.

I can only assume that you are either jesting with all the posters or you are seriously anti anybody Scarlet .... I understand to an certain extent your stance with Stephen Jones, but to suggest that Rees had the upper hand against Knoyle in either game last season on a 1-2-1 basis beggars belief

October 2010
Cardiff Blues 10-16 Scarlets
"In the meantime Blues scrum-half Rees was sin-binned for deliberately knocking on as Daniel Evans threatened to send Tavis Knoyle on his way to the line."
Knoyle totally out-thought, out-muscled, out-paced Rees throught that match
This was the last match I saw in Wales, and I was with 6 "Blues" work colleagues who all thought the same, Rees played as well as he could but was destroyed by Knoyle.

May 2011
Scarlets 38-23 Blues
Last ML game before the WC training camp
Cardiff were up for a 4th place playoff spot, so no excuses, but were utterly destroyed not so much by the pack, but by the half backs of Knoyle and Jones both who had outstanding games, Knoyle destroyed yet again the myth of a fitness gap between him and Rees (who gave his all on the day)

I really don't understand what games you actually watch

Obvious its not the One-eyed Turkish version

flyhalffactory wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:He is either not fit (gym monkey) or he has told one of the coaches what he thinks, it does not make much sense to me he out played Knoyle in Cardiff and he is first choice at the Blues. Rees's season has been screwed up by the long ban that Welsh players seem to get (12 weeks) playing in the HC. I suspect Peel will be brought in but his time was 2005 like his ex halfback partner.

I can only assume that you are either jesting with all the posters or you are seriously anti anybody Scarlet .... I understand to an certain extent your stance with Stephen Jones, but to suggest that Rees had the upper hand against Knoyle in either game last season on a 1-2-1 basis beggars belief

October 2010
Cardiff Blues 10-16 Scarlets
"In the meantime Blues scrum-half Rees was sin-binned for deliberately knocking on as Daniel Evans threatened to send Tavis Knoyle on his way to the line."
Knoyle totally out-thought, out-muscled, out-paced Rees throught that match
This was the last match I saw in Wales, and I was with 6 "Blues" work colleagues who all thought the same, Rees played as well as he could but was destroyed by Knoyle.

May 2011
Scarlets 38-23 Blues
Last ML game before the WC training camp
Cardiff were up for a 4th place playoff spot, so no excuses, but were utterly destroyed not so much by the pack, but by the half backs of Knoyle and Jones both who had outstanding games, Knoyle destroyed yet again the myth of a fitness gap between him and Rees (who gave his all on the day)

I really don't understand what games you actually watch

The only true quotes in that write-up is where you put inverted comas about Rees knocking the ball on.
The rest it seems is made-up by a fantasist with a grudge.
If you disagree that Rees shouldnt be in that squad before any of the 3, you are clueless.
Phillips hasnt played or couldnt get in his regional side.
Williams was 2nd choice behind Rees all last season.
Knoyle, what can i say, from a Scarlet fans point of view, had a poor season overall had 1 or 2 average games, when his forwards performed in front of him, still he cant make decisions on the pitch, on slow ball and not protected from his forwards, he is a headless liability.

Janecory wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:He is either not fit (gym monkey) or he has told one of the coaches what he thinks, it does not make much sense to me he out played Knoyle in Cardiff and he is first choice at the Blues. Rees's season has been screwed up by the long ban that Welsh players seem to get (12 weeks) playing in the HC. I suspect Peel will be brought in but his time was 2005 like his ex halfback partner.

I can only assume that you are either jesting with all the posters or you are seriously anti anybody Scarlet .... I understand to an certain extent your stance with Stephen Jones, but to suggest that Rees had the upper hand against Knoyle in either game last season on a 1-2-1 basis beggars belief

October 2010
Cardiff Blues 10-16 Scarlets
"In the meantime Blues scrum-half Rees was sin-binned for deliberately knocking on as Daniel Evans threatened to send Tavis Knoyle on his way to the line."
Knoyle totally out-thought, out-muscled, out-paced Rees throught that match
This was the last match I saw in Wales, and I was with 6 "Blues" work colleagues who all thought the same, Rees played as well as he could but was destroyed by Knoyle.

May 2011
Scarlets 38-23 Blues
Last ML game before the WC training camp
Cardiff were up for a 4th place playoff spot, so no excuses, but were utterly destroyed not so much by the pack, but by the half backs of Knoyle and Jones both who had outstanding games, Knoyle destroyed yet again the myth of a fitness gap between him and Rees (who gave his all on the day)

I really don't understand what games you actually watch

The only true quotes in that write-up is where you put inverted comas about Rees knocking the ball on.
The rest it seems is made-up by a fantasist with a grudge.
If you disagree that Rees shouldnt be in that squad before any of the 3, you are clueless.
Phillips hasnt played or couldnt get in his regional side.
Williams was 2nd choice behind Rees all last season.
Knoyle, what can i say, from a Scarlet fans point of view, had a poor season overall had 1 or 2 average games, when his forwards performed in front of him, still he cant make decisions on the pitch, on slow ball and not protected from his forwards, he is a headless liability.

Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear.
Mohandas Gandhi
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates
Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance.
Plato


Bit more meat on the bone laddie
"fantasist with a grudge" this is quite classy ...care to develop this one
If you disagree that Rees shouldnt be in that squad before any of the 3, you are clueless. tut tut tut...... the person who throws abuse has the knowledge he is already wrong
Williams was 2nd choice behind Rees all last season. .... you mean Williams the rookie that almost every genuine Blues fan would admit already is a better player than Rees, ahem I saw Rees twice against us he was pretty poor up in Scotland and in Wales, and I saw the Blues v Scarlets match
and your last comment about Knoyle is just pure immature, juvenile tosh, I really dont know how old you are but perhaps you better speak to Scarlets fans ( I am a Gunner by the way) and see what they think of Knoyles form towards the end of the season

Keep the abuse though........ it makes me smile


Finally I think you'll find that based on potential Rees will be quite a way back in contention over the coming seasons

Janecory wrote:Knoyle, what can i say, from a Scarlet fans point of view, had a poor season overall had 1 or 2 average games, when his forwards performed in front of him, still he cant make decisions on the pitch, on slow ball and not protected from his forwards, he is a headless liability.

Couldn't agree with this more. One game was against new kids on the block Aironi and the other against the Blues at the end of the season, which was a dead rubber for the Scarlets.

nottins_jones wrote:

Janecory wrote:Knoyle, what can i say, from a Scarlet fans point of view, had a poor season overall had 1 or 2 average games, when his forwards performed in front of him, still he cant make decisions on the pitch, on slow ball and not protected from his forwards, he is a headless liability.

Couldn't agree with this more. One game was against new kids on the block Aironi and the other against the Blues at the end of the season, which was a dead rubber for the Scarlets.

I couldnt disagree more with this - in the games i saw Knoyle outplayed rees, particularly the 2nd, which was in no way a dead rubber as the scarlets could still catch the blues, plus it was a derby and it was pretty intense. Plus its more impressive if knoyle outplayed rees when the blues had more riding on the game.

Saying that i like rees and just wish hed had more game time.but to say knoyle was average in every game is rubbish

FFS does anyone care if Knoyle outplayed Rees in a game or two? Richie is the better scrum half by a mile which has been quite clear from the international rugby both have played. How Knoyle even got a call-up... Must be another one of Gatlands things a la Bennet.

nottins_jones wrote:FFS does anyone care if Knoyle outplayed Rees in a game or two? Richie is the better scrum half by a mile which has been quite clear from the international rugby both have played. How Knoyle even got a call-up... Must be another one of Gatlands things a la Bennet.

At last a sensible post on this topic!
Lets have another poll.

Flyhalf:

I only commented on the first game as the second game I was jumping between the two televised games that night i.e., Dragon V Ulster but I remember Knoyle had a very good game. I think he will be the number one scrum half with a bit more experience but I thought he was taught a positve lesson in the first game prior to Rees's ban. What I like with Rees, he makes an impact by speeding the game, similar to how Peel used to make an impact when he came onto the park on as a sub (five years ago).

I think Knoyle is similar to Phillips in style and pace so for me it is either Phillips or Knoyle and on the bench Rees or Williams/Evans/Peel. The main reason for Phillips/Rees combination is they are different in style and they have the experience that Knoyle and Williams just don't have at this level, I don't see this as anti Scarlet.

Evening Alun

One thing I will say now mate at least you have some rationale behind your opinion and dont send back stupid one liners

Anyway
I am a firm believer "if you are good enough you are experienced enough" look at the Welsh introduction of Hook, Halfpenny (and would have been a Lion based on what less than half a season of regional rugby), and Prydie and did very well. I think Knoyle has more experience that them when they were introduced to international rugby

I think this young Williams could be a great 9 and he deffo has been the best Cardiff scrum half last season, but based on FORM Knoyle should the man in possession, now I am not saying during the months training things havent changed. The only worry I have with young Knoyle is his erractic pass!! half the time its almost taking off Jones or Priestland head if he could improve that then IMHO there would be no doubt who is the NO:1 in Wales.

Alun - i agree with wot u say about rees, he does get things movin and is very sharp.one proviso (soz couldnt think of another word) blues fans think williams is beta and rees is off form. I think ur unfair on knoyle hes much faster than phillips and gets the ball movin faster

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think ur unfair on knoyle hes much faster than phillips and gets the ball movin faster

That's not much of an achievement. Adam Jones gets the ball moving faster than Mike Phillips.

yes but I'm not saying Knoyle has a snail like paced pass but it's faster than Phillips - I'm saying that knoyle gives quite fast service and gets the ball moving and keeps the defence guessing as you don't know if he's going to snipe round the edges or spread it. I think his service could be worked on and he should stop box kicking as much (though he has got impressive range and they do come of regularly), but that will come.

flyhalffactory wrote:

I think this young Williams could be a great 9 and he deffo has been the best Cardiff scrum half last season,

LOL!
Williams hardly played last season, when he did, he played in the joking games, FFS.
One thing though, he is better than Knoyle.
Knoyle will lose his seat on the plane to Williams!

Janecory wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

I think this young Williams could be a great 9 and he deffo has been the best Cardiff scrum half last season,

LOL!
Williams hardly played last season, when he did, he played in the joking games, FFS.
One thing though, he is better than Knoyle.
Knoyle will lose his seat on the plane to Williams!

Hadly played last season!!!!!
Now I am not a Blues fan but know a fair few season ticket holders and they told me Williams played about 500 mins compared to Rees 1000 mins and I know he played against Munster, NGD, Bath

I am assuming from your posts you are a Blues fan, or maybe Knoyle has pinched your girlfriend

Smirnoffpriest wrote:yes but I'm not saying Knoyle has a snail like paced pass but it's faster than Phillips - I'm saying that knoyle gives quite fast service and gets the ball moving and keeps the defence guessing as you don't know if he's going to snipe round the edges or spread it. I think his service could be worked on and he should stop box kicking as much (though he has got impressive range and they do come of regularly), but that will come.

Oh please. Knoyle is the most predictable of our scrum halves. I find it funny how he's often compared to Phillips; particulary as west walians use it as an excuse to big up Knoyle and slag off Phillips. The only scrum half that causes defences problems is Mike Phillips who is much better than Knoyle. I don't see the point of Tavis in the squad, his style is similar to Phillips' (only worse). Phillips, Rees and Williams on the plane for me.

I totally disagree with you - to say Knoyle is worse than Phillips - our worst SH on form, is laughable.

And to say that none of the other SH's mentioned above cause the defence problems is equally crazy.

Rees on form was keeping the defence far more honest than Phillips (particularly as everyone knew Phillips was going to stand around for 5 mins stamping his foot and then slowly pick up the ball, run around the ruck straight into a forward)

Knoyle and Rees are pretty much the same scrum half, both of them are slightly faster than Phillips, have a slightly better pass, are just as gobby, and are slightly less physical. However Richie Rees is older and has a worse disciplinary record.

I don't care if you disagree. Can't wait to see Phillips on fire in NZ.

Which hallucinogenics will you be taking to watch Phillips on play well? Or will you literally be going down there to throw molotov cocktails at him? (which to be honest may well speed him up)

Perhaps the same hallucinogenics that you take whilst you watch Knoyle's failures as a scrum half? They seem to work to be fair.

Knoyle seems a clone of Rupert Barker Moon.
Same type of player, poor pass, cannot control a game, and headless.
All i hope he is not on that plane.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Janecory wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

I think this young Williams could be a great 9 and he deffo has been the best Cardiff scrum half last season,

LOL!
Williams hardly played last season, when he did, he played in the joking games, FFS.
One thing though, he is better than Knoyle.
Knoyle will lose his seat on the plane to Williams!

Hadly played last season!!!!!
Now I am not a Blues fan but know a fair few season ticket holders and they told me Williams played about 500 mins compared to Rees 1000 mins and I know he played against Munster, NGD, Bath

I am assuming from your posts you are a Blues fan, or maybe Knoyle has pinched your girlfriend

His record for all to see http://www.cardiffblues.com/rugby/blues_squad.php?player=62136&includeref=dynamic
Mostly MEANINGLESS games he played in, notice his ONLY 10 MINUTES CAMEO APPEARANCE in a heineken cup game.Plenty of experience there for him to play in the world cup. LOL !

Ahem he played half the game time Rees did, so how is that "hardly any games"
....and Munster, NGD are meaningless !!!........ keep it up, you are doing so well

So Jane you dont think much of Gatland then

I mean imagine selecting a rookie (Williams) ahead of a much more experienced and better player (Rees), and even worse keeping an obviously "poorer" player (Knoyle) for goodness sake he just doesnt know what he is doing does he!!

Well done that boy!!

Flyhalf:

I am no great fan of Gatland he makes so many bad selections and some strange selections over the years I wonder sometimes if he watches many games. Take England the season before last, who would have picked G Williams, A Powell, G Copper and T James to start and then after sub-ing them all, he picked them again for the next game against Scotland to be kicked off again. In both games R Rees came on and made a massive difference (then) but too late against England. Wales threw away the England game not because of the interception pass from S Jones (did not help) it was poor team selection (I did not want to go to that game because of the selection but I did not want to let a mate down) we were playing catch up. I felt sorry for S Jones the ball was flying everywhere except at him (he was outplayed by Jonny but he had good service).

Why does Gatland persist with Powell, Bennett, J Thomas is it they are good gym monkeys?

There are other games with strange selection like the Fiji game and T Prydie who can't get into the Ospreys team when he is fit! Why he has not picked I Thomas at prop is beyond me, he has probably been the best loosehead in Wales this season, clearly demonstrated against Wales in the BaaBaas match?

I wonder sometimes if Gatland is looking for a big payoff and he will leave Wales with rubbish coaches in his wake!

I conclude Flyhallf don't reference Gatland as the source of knowing what he doing as he seems to have his own agenda and I am not sure Wales is just a stepping stone.

Alun

Its amazing that your WRU presented Gatland with a new contract before the WC!!!.............. considering how much more established regionalism is now and the quality of the overall welsh player base is (fitness, conditioning, and skill level) he certainly has been left wanting in the Welsh performances over the last 3 seasons

I was told by a fairly astute Swansea ex-player that Prydie could have been capped by Ireland and they were seriously looking to bring that on board. Gatland picked him to prevent this and then discarded him for no real reason (I thought he played well when picked). If that is the case Gatland whilst low in my book had plummeted to new depths. Contrast to our respect and feeling for Andy Robinson who with limited resources has done a sterling job

I agree 100% with you re: Iestyn Thomas, ML player of the year in his position of loosehead, had a great game for the Baa Baas set up one try!!, yet still hasn't been picked it beggars belief. Contrast this with his stubborness in selecting Phillips and Byrne (both out of form since the Lions) or playing Hook at FB!!!!......as a result now you might have Priestland at FB (who is a confidence player) with hardly any game time in such an important match

Bennett, JT, and yes Powell (disciplinary sake) should have been discarded in 2009, personally I would go with Ryan Jones and Charteris as locks, and would deffo look at Tuperic at 8 for one game at least.

In spite of Gatland I am sure you will provide England a severe test both home and away.................... cheers mate

flyhalffactory wrote:Ahem he played half the game time Rees did, so how is that "hardly any games"
....and Munster, NGD are meaningless !!!........ keep it up, you are doing so well

So Jane you dont think much of Gatland then

I mean imagine selecting a rookie (Williams) ahead of a much more experienced and better player (Rees), and even worse keeping an obviously "poorer" player (Knoyle) for goodness sake he just doesnt know what he is doing does he!!

Well done that boy!!

Off for 6 weeks school hols now are you?
Some imature posting going on by you here, quoting how many minutes played.If you want to be childish.
Williams played 465 mins, 35 mins less than you state, in Williams game time,going on the stats that is 3 games less. LOL
Digging yourself into a bigger hole, you wont get out

Flyhalf:

Agree with your comments, if Prydie was played just to stop Ireland it was a big mistake as he played more than the single game to skupper Ireland and could have deprived a better player on the wing game time e.g., Brew/Harries/Mustoe etc also could have cost Wales victories! Prydie was dire against the AB's and was involved or not with missed tackles in both games. I could see why the Ospreys did not pick him last season and the season before although he does look a good prospect for the future.