Saracens reinforce their Saffa credentials

John Smit has agreed to join Saracens. The record-breaking Springbok captain, 33, will join the Premiership champions after the World Cup.

http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=6457

English clubs should concentrate on English players.

And this is not sour grapes coming from a Tigers fan - I spent some time bigging up the Saints this past season.

if you can get quality go for it, the likes of Smit coming is good for the Prem, it's the lesser NEQ players that are the problem, there seams to be a lot of them

Shock horror! A South African hooker being replaced by a South African hooker! Ethienne Reynecke leaves.John Smit joins.

No extra South Africans have been brought in and I expect John Smit was requested by the Rupert family.

You evidently don't know that our first choice as a replacement for Ethienne was Huia Edmonds, an Australian but that fell through as he picked up an injury so needs an operation.

We will be moving to Copthall in the next year or two, an area hardly known for it's South African community.

English players are being brought in like C.Hodgson,Vunipola,Watson etc.

Our academy is pumping out quality players - Ransom and Farrell performed well in the junior world cup.

We are also giving a good platform for less developed rugby nations to improve their players such as USA,Fiji and Namibia. Also have kept Scotland's Brown in good shape and Wale's Gill.

Look out for Hayden Smith and Chris Wyles for USA,Jacques Burger for Namibia,Kameli Ratuvou and Michael Tagicakibau for Fiji in the world cup.

Also another point Saracens picked up the awards for best club for the community this year and community player of the year - Hayden Smith.

This is different.

The Saracens are a Saffa-owned outfit largely based on Saffa players. Some of whom are spurious EQPs.

I have to point out that Tigers and Sarries had the same number of foreign players on final day. This is an old arguement, that dispite having little validity these days, is still often used by those trying to put down Saracens.

Just seems mad as they have the best hooker in the premiership who is available all year round, i'm not saying bringing in cover is a bad idea but i'm sure they are paying smit a well. i think they should have signed a decent no.8 or centre.

How good was Reynecke, seams a bit of a step for winning prem to go to Connacht.
He has Cronins boots to fill, is he capable of that.
Connacht could be building nicely.
What were Reynecke stenghts and weaknesses?

Portnoy wrote:English clubs should concentrate on English players.

And this is not sour grapes coming from a Tigers fan - I spent some time bigging up the Saints this past season.

You mean like Leicester signing Julian Salvi (an Australian) to cover for Craig Newby (a Kiwi) rather than trusting Ben Woods (a young English player) to provide adequate cover.

Portnoy your knowledge of Saracens is sadly lacking. Unsurprising really.

Nigel Wray,Dominic Silvester and Nick Leslau - all English own 49-50% of Saracens.

The Rupert Family/South africans owns 50-51%.

It's hardly as if the South Africans have a massive majority.

Scoped very true. Portnoy is just upset. Quite amusing really.

We coul play this full English side next season:

1.Mako Vunipola
2.Jamie George
3.Matt Stevens (can alternate the props)
4.Steve Borthwick
5.Hugh Vyvan/George Kruis
6.Will Fraser
7.Andy Saull
8.Jackson Wray
9.Richard Wigglesworth
10.Charlie Hodgson
11.James Short
12.Brad Barritt
13.Adam Powell
14.David Strettle
15.Alex Goode

Admittedly a little weak at no 6 in regards to English options but youngsters like Matt Hankin are coming through.

Good English backline though!

This is without including the EQPs like Botha,Saunders,Du plessis etc.

Kingshu in my opinion Ethienne Reynecke is a solid but unspectacular player. He throws well in the lineout and is average in the scrum but isn't amazing with ball in hand. He's never going to be top class but he won't let you down. He would prefer to be starter for a smaller club than be 3rd choice for a bigger one. Jamie George had leapfrogged him. I worry that with Smit's signing - Jamie George won't get much game time.

Kiwicraving I agree. Centre is certainly an area I would have strengthed instead of hooker.

I think Saracens are persuaded to make this signing due to the calibre of the man they're getting rather than necessarily his abilities as a player these days. There will also be marketing benefits to having a WC winning captain on the books.

Smit does also cover prop and hooker - quite unique cover to have in one player, plus he'll be 100% focused on Saracens. Maybe they're thinking long-term to perhaps a coaching position. One hell of a bloke to have around your squad.

needed another hooker Brits played in all but 4 games last year and he well probably mentor Jamie George as well

beshocked wrote:Portnoy your knowledge of Saracens is sadly lacking. Unsurprising really.

Nigel Wray,Dominic Silvester and Nick Leslau - all English own 49-50% of Saracens.

The Rupert Family/South africans owns 50-51%.

It's hardly as if the South Africans have a massive majority.

Scoped very true. Portnoy is just upset. Quite amusing really.

Portnoy is upset. Absolutely. Maybe I'd be less so if Sarries had the grace to rename themselves as London Bokke it would make a more substantial recognition of the club's status.

Every Jeff club has to rely on foreign signings because of the loss of players during international windows.

But some need foreigners more than others don't they?

I have no problem being beaten in the league so long as teams meet outside the IWs (which except in RWC years) is entirely feasible.

But don't rely on the playoffs when the fixture list has already helped you.

Every team could put out an English XV, whats your point?

Do you not think that Smit will play a fair amount of rugby at LH as well?

Bathite my point is we could put out a strong English XV. A side which could beat most sides in the AP in my opinion if you applied the same rules of playing only English players.

Smit probably won't play at LH. We have numerous props as it is.

Portnoy your comments just sound very bitter and make you look like a sore loser. We play to the rules. Again I say it isn't our fault if our players are not picked for England. Barritt and Goode are good enough but constantly overlooked.

Our players aren't fast tracked into the England squad like Waldrom, Tuliagi and Fourie. Our players and those of other clubs have to work much harder.

E.g. Robshaw had to work infinitely harder for his squad spot than Fourie.

Really surprised that Allen isn't picked for England either.

You lost to us 3 times. At the VR game, Cockerill decided to put out a weakened side. In the final it was as close to full strength as you can get.

You aren't used to Leicester losing. I can understand that - you have to adapt. You didn't win as many games as us either.

Personally I’m worried about Jamie George’s chances for next season. You don’t bring in a player of Smit’s calibre to play him out of position even if he is getting on a bit.

George is an outstanding prospect (as are many of the young lads at Saracens) and Saracens have handled him well this year by giving him game/ bench time in 12 premiership games. My worry is this going to curtail or decrease. I’m not unrealistic either, he isn’t at an age/ level to make him demand lots of gametime, I’m just worried that Smit will block him from getting to this level.

I think the key point was mentioned above. Bring world class players in like Smit is a good think. Its the rubbish journeymen foreigners that are the issue.

I hope im proven wrong with our signings of Shortland, Mayhew etc....

Sign who you want Sarries, just ditch the banal ' Stand up for the Saracens' song please

The_Hound_of_Harrow

finally someone on this site is talking sense

Beshocked - i would back the Bath English XV against the Saracens! Great blend of youth and experience.

1 Flatman/Catt
2 Mears
3 Bell/Beech
4 Hooper
5 Attwood
6 Moody/Mercer
7 Skirving
8 Fearns
9 Cook
10 Vesty
11 Banahan
12 Barkley
13 Hipkiss
14 Biggs
15 Abendanon

16 Beech
17 Catt
18 Batty
19 Spencer
20 Mercer
21 Keyte
22 Williams
23 Eastmond

TDH - it did my head in during our game at Wembley. So much so that I left about 12 minutes early, safe in the knowledge that that damn tune would be playing in my head when I tried to go to sleep that night. Growl!

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think the key point was mentioned above. Bring world class players in like Smit is a good think. Its the rubbish journeymen foreigners that are the issue.

I hope im proven wrong with our signings of Shortland, Mayhew etc....

What? I was led to believe that these guys were literally the second coming of Christ, now I don't know what to think! I'm severely disillusioned now...

Bathite wrote:Beshocked - i would back the Bath English XV against the Saracens! Great blend of youth and experience.

1 Flatman/Catt
2 Mears
3 Bell/Beech
4 Hooper
5 Attwood
6 Moody/Mercer
7 Skirving
8 Fearns
9 Cook
10 Vesty
11 Banahan
12 Barkley
13 Hipkiss
14 Biggs
15 Abendanon

16 Beech
17 Catt
18 Batty
19 Spencer
20 Mercer
21 Keyte
22 Williams
23 Eastmond

Charlie Beech is a loosehead, since you've missed Davey Wilson, can we have him back? Please???

Bathite I would say most of our players out trump yours.

Better in all aspects actually except for the backrow. We are the AP champions for a reason.

The hound of harrow I agree the Saracens song is rubbish.

"Charlie Beech is a loosehead, since you've missed Davey Wilson, can we have him back? Please??? ."

Amen Brother....

beshocked wrote:Bathite I would say most of our players out trump yours.

We are the AP champions for a reason.

Yes you are and its not for having english players, lets not kid ourselves!

I'd take our whole pack over yours in that english xv, without even pausing. Hodgson, Wiggles, Strettle are the only backs i would prefer. Being deadly serious, trying not to be biased.

For what its worth, I think you will win it again this year, as you lose the least players to WC and must have the biggest squad.

Whoops, forgot about davey wilson! Probably wouldn't have him above Bell or Catt, about equal to Flatman after his poor season last year.

oh and stevens of course, he is quality. said a long time ago that he would be in the rwc squad and got laughed out of the place. wish i had put money on it! in fact it was during the bath sarries game, where he played lh, only 2nd start i think, that i said it.

Wouldn't pick Smit above Brits though. Fail to see the logic in the move to be honest.

Is rhys gill that good? surely smit starts at lh?

Isn't Smit passed his sale by date?

Beshocked Tigers may invest in some foreign players like everyone else but I'd back our all English team over the rest of the leagues;

1.Stankovitch
2.Chuter
3.Cole
4.Deacon
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Woods
8.Crane
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Smith
12.Allen
13.Manu
14.Robinson
15.Twelvetrees

Ok tad weak in the back three but we have a young full back coming through who could be very good in Lewington and Forscyth is a handy looking utility back. Both are a tad young though. We'd have a strong bench as well.

As a Tigers fan I really couldn't care that Sarries have signed Smit, it's not a great signing and if anything may hamper them long term as Jamie George will see less action. Tigers fans in the main aren't bitter about losing the final, we played rubbish and Sarries stuck to their game plan and won fairly. What worries me as a Tigers fan is next year Sarries backline might actually function once the kick happy Farrell and Hougaard plan second fiddle to Hodgeson.

Smit may be getting on but he's still an excellent leader, if Brits is still there will Smit act as back up? Or will he move to LH, it's hard to imagine a player of his quality sitting on the bench for the whole season

If Stevens goes to the World Cup and Six Nations, Sarries could start with Smit and Brits in the front row. When Stevens comes back Brits could move to the back row, or Stevens, Brits and Smit could all play in the front-row together.

Sam that's not a great back three. Never heard of Robinson.You are picking Smith and Twelvetrees out of position.

Stankovich is English? George Chuter is getting on a bit now. Woods and Parling haven't done anything of note except be injured.

The rest of the side is good though.

Wow really Bathite? Skirving over Saull? Any Bath prop over Stevens? Any Bath lock over Borthwick? Barkley over Barritt? Abedanon over Goode? Biggs over Short? Seriously? Obviously the Bath bias which is fair enough.

I think most Bath players are overrated. If they weren't they would be more than just flat track bullies (basically good against the weaker sides).

I would also take Jamie George over Lee Mears.

Beshocked the difference between our line out with Parling (great steal to win the GP Final included) was uncomparable to the mess it was last season whilst it was injured (note the limp set piece we brought to the AP Final which Sarries easily disrupted). He is a classy athletic lock. Woods is a decent openside when match fit and was very good when he managed to be match fit last season.

Chuter is getting on though you're right there, Hawkins or Tom Youngs may well over take him this year. Smith is as comfortable on the wing as he is at centre, Robinson is a big winger we signed off of Bristol and is squad cover and Billy played some full back for Bedford in the Championship. Stanko is English qualified, English mother Kiwi father I think.

Are you concerned about Jamie George's development for next season? Ditto Farrell's what with Hougaard retained and Hodgeson signed?

Um, Sam I think you forgot Tait for a number 14 or 11 place. I'd certainly start him ahead of Robinson! Or put him at 15 with 36 on the wing...

Saull is a 7 and someone i really rate, but yes i would prefer Moody to him


Stevens i did agree with you on, the guy is class either side of scrum

Hooper about equal to Borthwick and would prefer Attwood. Ideally, Attwood and Borthwick, that combo has everything.

Barkely over Barritt, in a heartbeart, so much more to offer, controls a game and can be a match winner.

Biggs to Short, not much in it - short got more to prove

Bendy over Goode, yes and Johnson agrees

Agree that over the last 2 seasons, we havn't beaten the top 3 sides very regularly, thats a fair point and a the reason why we havn't kicked on. Have played very well in two halves of a season, not got the consistency that sarries, saints and tigers have.

Sarries are probably my second side to be honest mate, like a lot of their players, Saull, Goode, Stevens, (cato) Borthwick, Britz, but i'm really happy with the quality of the bath squad this year. Much will depend on how quickly donald gets settled i think

Tait isn't yet confirmed as the club are waiting on the results of his shoulder rehabilitation before signing off on the deal. Otherwise I'd have him in there somewhere.

oh, sorry George over Mears...sorry mate, you lost credibility at that point!

I'd have chuter, paice, hawkins all ahead of him, sure there are others about as well, i can't remember

Not at all worried about Farrell's development. He will either play at fly half or inside centre. He proved his worth last season - they can't/won't ignore him. Farrell offers something that Hodgson and Hougaard don't. He could well rotate with Barritt at inside centre.

In regards to Jamie George yes I am a little worried. I hope he gets enough game time.Smit could well help with the development. We'll have to wait and see but if I was a rival club I would watch how it unravels closely. If one of the hookers picks up an injury his importance grows. Hopefully what they will do is give them all equal game time. The advantage for Jamie George is Smit won't arrive till October/November.

I hope Ben Ransom and Mako Vunipola get the opportunity to show what they can do. Not optimistic about that happening though. They will probably be playing for Bedford (dual signing) - I don't think the other championship clubs will particularly enjoy that.

Bathite we'll have to agree to disagree! I was comparing Saull to Skirving who you picked at 7. Yes moody is better than Saull but I wouldn't call Moody a conventional 7. I really rate Jamie George. Every single time i see him he always puts in a good performance. He is complete contrast to Brits but that's what you want.

Haven't seen anything from Barkley that says he is a top class 12 and MJ agrees! Plus Barkley has been injured for a while. Short proved himself in my eyes with two incredible performances - the try of the season vs Gloucester where he set up Brits and the AP final where he scored the only try. Biggs is exciting but has he proved himself?

Who is Hooper? Borthwick is probably the best lineout man in the league. Abendanon against Goode is just personal taste. Attacking flair vs the all round abilities. Banahan vs Strettle is power vs agility.

Don't get me wrong I think your side is good but I prefer the Saracens one. Bias of course plays a factor.

Much more reason there fella, good to see that people can have discussion on here. I rarely spoke on the old 606 boards, as people were too uptight and took it personally.

Also, gutted that you signed Mako, we were rumoured to have him in the bag for a long time, got beaten at the last minute apparently!

Mate, Barkley was on the last England tour and only got dropped because he opened his mouth! Barritt is the best option for England right now, but only because of a lack of other options. Barkley with a broken leg and upset MJ of course.

Who is Hooper? Cheeky!

Wouldn't rate players on 2 good performances!

Time for Goode to kick on I think, if he really is that good and playing for the champs, he should be getting picked for England squads

Bathite I just think the Bath side need to front up a bit more. We know you can play exciting rugby and blow teams away. It's not enough though.

Leicester don't particularly enjoy playing against us as we front up against them. We can match them in almost every aspect.

I think Donald is a really good signing for you. Best bloke currently on the market. He's no Dan Carter but that means he doesn't get Dan Carter's wages!

Players like Hipkiss,Fearns,Attwood etc are clever signings. You need them to gel with the rest of the side now though.

Yes I am very pleased we got Mako Vunipola. I think our league position and possibly a chat with Owen Farrell and Ben Ransom, his two U20s team mates could have swayed it. Also we are the one side to have the financial backing you have and the rest!

I think next season will be interesting as I see Saracens,Leicester,Saints,Gloucester,Bath and Quins as doing well.

Welcome to the site SAm.....

beshocked wrote:Bathite I just think the Bath side need to front up a bit more. We know you can play exciting rugby and blow teams away. It's not enough though.

Tell me about it fella, its so frustrating at times! The game away to you at the end of the season is one that sticks firmly in the memory.

First full season of Geech and the first summer without turmoil, so hoping to turn a corner. Attwood adds big grunt, as does Louw and I think Perenise should add some PI flair and bulk. Hipkiss will of course tidy up and make the gain line, where Hape struggled with decision making

All the words coming out of the Bath camp are that we are looking for pragmatic players and to have an ability to play more then one gameplan. Everyone in rugby knew this was our problem, so good to see that someone has finally worked it out. Meehan played a sensational brand of rugby, but I would rather front up against the big boys as you said and maybe lose the odd game then smash ok teams with 80mins of brilliance a few times a year!

Almost two seasons in one this year, personally really excited about seeing how teams non-wc squads get on....won't see any of it though, as im in Auckland for a month! Get in!

Bathite I loved that match against you at home. Our defence blew you away in my opinion. My favourite moment was pushing you so far backwards you were behind your try line.

We didn't put a massive amount of points past you but we weren't in danger of losing. That's one thing I have loved about Saracens - they seem to be in control of the game most of the time. Getting points past us has become a huge task. Also we have been good at asserting pressure.

We need to learn how to punish the weaker sides like Saints and Leicester do on a regular basis. Our lack of bonus points meant we didn't top the league and could damage us in the HC.

Ian Mcgeechan is used to success. I think he'll turn you around. The real test will be how you do against the top 4.

Not sure a defence can blew anyone away, but it was a thoroughly dull game. We were bereft of ideas, tried nothing different, as we have discussed and sarries soaked it up, defended well and gave nothing away. You had one chance and took it, game over!

beshocked wrote:Shock horror! A South African hooker being replaced by a South African hooker! Ethienne Reynecke leaves.John Smit joins.

No extra South Africans have been brought in and I expect John Smit was requested by the Rupert family.

You evidently don't know that our first choice as a replacement for Ethienne was Huia Edmonds, an Australian but that fell through as he picked up an injury so needs an operation.

We will be moving to Copthall in the next year or two, an area hardly known for it's South African community.

English players are being brought in like C.Hodgson,Vunipola,Watson etc.

Our academy is pumping out quality players - Ransom and Farrell performed well in the junior world cup.

We are also giving a good platform for less developed rugby nations to improve their players such as USA,Fiji and Namibia. Also have kept Scotland's Brown in good shape and Wale's Gill.

Look out for Hayden Smith and Chris Wyles for USA,Jacques Burger for Namibia,Kameli Ratuvou and Michael Tagicakibau for Fiji in the world cup.

Also another point Saracens picked up the awards for best club for the community this year and community player of the year - Hayden Smith.

Your a saracens fan, this explains a few things on these boards!! :p

Hey Sam good to see you on here!

If we're doing all English clubs then can I put in Harlequins offering? As the only club to actually come near to starting a fully English first XV

1. Marler
2. Gray
3. Collier
4. Robson
5. Kohn
6. Guest
7. Robshaw
8. Easter
9. Care
10. Clegg
11. Monye
12. JTH
13. Lowe
14. Smith
15. Brown

And we'd probable beat a fair few teams as all those players except Collier have played together multiple times over the season. Infact 13 of those barring injuries would be starters. Can any other team say that?

And well done to Sarries for getting Smit, it's good for the league for teams to get these big name very experienced foreign players. Just look at how much help Mauger was on the development of some of Leicesters centres.

It's the chris Malones of the league that are the problem.

I understand the original point, but to me, this is different. John Smit has captained SA for 50+ times. He is a natural leader and, from what I have read, a positive role model. I would absolutely want someone like that in my club. Who wouldn't?

Bad news for George - he doesn't need 'mentoring', he needs game time. There are virtually no A-team games this season too. Plus Sarries aren't short of leaders so I don't see the need to bring in another.

Saracens are developing a few young English forwards who are stuck: Wray (potentially very good) behind Joubert, Saull behind Berger, Kruis behind Smith, and now George won't even get a bench spot and Vunipola has been sent straight back to the Championship. This could become quite damaging as these players need exposure to top class games to develop.

DaveM

Saull will start the beginning of the season at openside flanker if not injured.

Wray will be on the bench at the beginning of the season in my opinion.

Kruis will either start or be on the bench.

George will definitely be on the bench.

I agree Vunipola might struggle but Farrell and Short showed that breaking into the first side as no 1 choices is not impossible.

Probably for Vunipola to feature there needs to be a few injuries in the frontrow.