Top 10 heavyweights on a who beats who basis.

This is not based on legacy, but who beats who. Size is a major issue in compiling my list,
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
George Foreman
Joe Louis
Joe Frasier
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitshcko

Obviously some big names missing that would always make my top 10 all time heavy greats, i.e. Johnson, Tunney, Marciano and Dempsey, but I believe all 10 of the above would have beaten them.

What you mean to say is:

"I'm blindly ignorant and don't actually know much about boxing prior to 1970. I have limited knowledge of even the modern era."

Lets just let this drift down the page where it belongs lads.

I can accept that Ali, Holmes and Louis would have beat Jack Johnson but I don't see how you can make a case for even a 'prime' Tyson.

Marciano would would walk through that bottom 4 for fun.

After reading some of your posts, I have a lot more knowledge than you, I can tell you that. I think maybe I have Joe Louis too high. Size is a huge issue, what do you not agree with?

As always, much depends on the prevailing conditions.

Over twenty five rounds, under a baking Sun, with small gloves and old school refereeing, Jeffries beats many on that list, in my opinion. Put him in a twelve rounder and most decent boxers stage a shutout against him.

Not entirely sure that Holyfield is worth a place at the expense of Dempsey and Tunney. Jack and Gene are often dismissed on the basis of size, but Holy is a converted cruiser who was, in most measurements of the ' tale of the tape, ' almost exactly the same size as Dempsey before he bulked up to heavy. Assuming that Tunney and Dempsey could come in around 205 - 10lb., I'd fancy them against some guys on the list.

Never easy with the heavies, though, and it will always come down to opinions.

prettyboykev wrote:I can accept that Ali, Holmes and Louis would have beat Jack Johnson but I don't see how you can make a case for even a 'prime' Tyson.

Marciano would would walk through that bottom 4 for fun.

Would he though? It took him 13 rounds to walk down a 40 something Walcott and he struggled badly with Roland LaStarza, and according to most reports was lucky to get the win. Remember Rocky was around 13 stone mate

HumanWindmill wrote:As always, much depends on the prevailing conditions.

Over twenty five rounds, under a baking Sun, with small gloves and old school refereeing, Jeffries beats many on that list, in my opinion. Put him in a twelve rounder and most decent boxers stage a shutout against him.

Not entirely sure that Holyfield is worth a place at the expense of Dempsey and Tunney. Jack and Gene are often dismissed on the basis of size, but Holy is a converted cruiser who was, in most measurements of the ' tale of the tape, ' almost exactly the same size as Dempsey before he bulked up to heavy. Assuming that Tunney and Dempsey could come in around 205 - 10lb., I'd fancy them against some guys on the list.

Never easy with the heavies, though, and it will always come down to opinions.

I am a massive Holyfield fan, and I agree that I maybe have him a touch too high. Dempsey Holyyfield over 15 would have been a great fight

I agree, mate.

I'm a huge Dempsey fan, and would obviously be tipping him but, as I say, it all comes down to opinions.

coxy0001 wrote:What you mean to say is:

"I'm blindly ignorant and don't actually know much about boxing prior to 1970. I have limited knowledge of even the modern era."

Lets just let this drift down the page where it belongs lads.

Oh dear! You have incurred the wrath of the black and white fan boy! Not good.

Marciano would have terrified Bowe the minute Bowe felt his power and Marciano was unrelenting. Bowe could have worked the jab all he wanted Marciano could take his best Bowe couldn't take Marciano's.
Holyfield was a cruiserweight so wouldn't have a size advantage. Power and chin on the side of Marciano along with the amount of punches coming Evanders way easy wn for Marciano.
As for Tyson he was to easy to hit Marciano would have had fun with that.
As for Klitshcko he may have coped well but I don't see him being able to out box Marciano at range for 12 rounds. He may have a good chin but I'm doubtful he could have taken Marciano's best shots.

Walcott may have been 40 but he always had an excellent defence and although I have never seen the fight I have read that Walcott was their survive and that was about it.

GaryMabbuttYidLegend wrote:After reading some of your posts, I have a lot more knowledge than you, I can tell you that. I think maybe I have Joe Louis too high. Size is a huge issue, what do you not agree with?

'Course you do.

Size is a huge issue yet Jimmy Wilde would walk through and knock out guys he'd be given away over 15lbs against.

Tyson was exposed as a chinless wonder yet you think Marciano wouldn't get to him.

Lewis was knocked out by two guys around the 6'2 mark, Marciano (correct me if i'm wrong) was 5'11. Not to mention Tyson was smaller.

Weight tends to only make a difference when you've got 2 guys on an equal level, in most cases a very good "smaller" guy will always beat the heavier "big guy".

Back to the football forums please.

prettyboykev wrote:I can accept that Ali, Holmes and Louis would have beat Jack Johnson but I don't see how you can make a case for even a 'prime' Tyson.

Marciano would would walk through that bottom 4 for fun.

I think Tyson in his prime would have been way too much for Marciano. A 13 stoner against a 15/16 stone monster in Tyson! Marciano fought as a light cruiserweight by today's standards.

Marciano's pressure style would never work against a fighter much bigger and stronger. Stylistically an awful matchup for Marciano who'd have no adavantages against Tyson whatsoever.

Tyson all day every day!

prettyboykev wrote:Marciano would have terrified Bowe the minute Bowe felt his power and Marciano was unrelenting. Bowe could have worked the jab all he wanted Marciano could take his best Bowe couldn't take Marciano's.
Holyfield was a cruiserweight so wouldn't have a size advantage. Power and chin on the side of Marciano along with the amount of punches coming Evanders way easy wn for Marciano.
As for Tyson he was to easy to hit Marciano would have had fun with that.
As for Klitshcko he may have coped well but I don't see him being able to out box Marciano at range for 12 rounds. He may have a good chin but I'm doubtful he could have taken Marciano's best shots.

Walcott may have been 40 but he always had an excellent defence and although I have never seen the fight I have read that Walcott was their survive and that was about it.

Walcott was winning. What about La Starza? he took all Marciano had and more.

Marciano's pressure style would never work against a fighter much bigger and stronger.

It would against one who had no heart and an even worse chin.

Kev I think you're blowing a bit of smoke up Marciano's bottom there mate. Easy to say he would've beaten x, y & z, but to say he'd walk through those guys 'for fun' is stretching credulity. For all his formidable attributes, he's still a cruiser by today's standards and someone like the big Klit would hardly he a walkover.

Same thing with Tyson being easy to hit-the same can be levelled at Rocky, and Tyson was a fast, quick-starter.

As per usual, this thread will no doubt descend into list hell, so I'm off.

GaryMabbuttYidLegend wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Marciano would have terrified Bowe the minute Bowe felt his power and Marciano was unrelenting. Bowe could have worked the jab all he wanted Marciano could take his best Bowe couldn't take Marciano's.
Holyfield was a cruiserweight so wouldn't have a size advantage. Power and chin on the side of Marciano along with the amount of punches coming Evanders way easy wn for Marciano.
As for Tyson he was to easy to hit Marciano would have had fun with that.
As for Klitshcko he may have coped well but I don't see him being able to out box Marciano at range for 12 rounds. He may have a good chin but I'm doubtful he could have taken Marciano's best shots.

Walcott may have been 40 but he always had an excellent defence and although I have never seen the fight I have read that Walcott was their survive and that was about it.

Walcott was winning. What about La Starza? he took all Marciano had and more.

Like I said mate I have never seen that fight just read a few reports about it. Walcott was a very skilled and clever guy although he was 40. La Starza went the distance and good for him but Marciano could punch did stop him in a rematch and La Starza had a very good chin. The same can't be said for Tyson.

BALTIMORA wrote:Kev I think you're blowing a bit of smoke up Marciano's bottom there mate. Easy to say he would've beaten x, y & z, but to say he'd walk through those guys 'for fun' is stretching credulity. For all his formidable attributes, he's still a cruiser by today's standards and someone like the big Klit would hardly he a walkover.

Same thing with Tyson being easy to hit-the same can be levelled at Rocky, and Tyson was a fast, quick-starter.

As per usual, this thread will no doubt descend into list hell, so I'm off.

Balti the problem I see with especially Tyson is if he couldn't stop Marciano early he would have got discouraged and Marciano had the far stronger chin.

coxy0001 wrote:

Marciano's pressure style would never work against a fighter much bigger and stronger.

It would against one who had no heart and an even worse chin.

Before we get into a 'peak/prime' Tyson discussion AGAIN and I'm compelled to neck whatever I can find underneath the sink, Tyson wasn't as chinny as you're making out there coxy. He's hardly Enzo.

coxy0001 wrote:

GaryMabbuttYidLegend wrote:After reading some of your posts, I have a lot more knowledge than you, I can tell you that. I think maybe I have Joe Louis too high. Size is a huge issue, what do you not agree with?

'Course you do.

Size is a huge issue yet Jimmy Wilde would walk through and knock out guys he'd be given away over 15lbs against.

Tyson was exposed as a chinless wonder yet you think Marciano wouldn't get to him.

Lewis was knocked out by two guys around the 6'2 mark, Marciano (correct me if i'm wrong) was 5'11. Not to mention Tyson was smaller.

Weight tends to only make a difference when you've got 2 guys on an equal level, in most cases a very good "smaller" guy will always beat the heavier "big guy".

Back to the football forums please.

Both McCall and Rahman were monsters in size compared to Marciano. Marciano was 5'10 and 13stone, Lewis would have been a joke fight. Lewis would have knocked him out within 2 rounds. 'Marcianos chin is the greatest!', Walcott had him down and hurt, LaStarza almost stopped him in the 5th (I think it was the 5th). Marciano was in wars with men his own size, a man a foot taller and 5 stone bigger may not nessasarily win, but a man that size with Lewis' talent would blow him out.

Jimmy Wilde was a great great flyweight, beat bigger men, yes, but no one north of featherweight who was ever really that good.
Boxing has weight divisions for a reason.

Kev, it's a fair point you make about Tyson and the 'stopping him early' thing, but saying Rocky would march through them all every day of the week and twice on Sundays is just a bit too rose-tinted for my liking.

Just occurred to me that Sonny Liston isn't on the list.

Head - to - head he'd be a tough night for anybody on his best night. Sound technician, vicious puncher, authoritative jabber, with a reach the equal of Lennox Lewis' and a very strong chin.

The Liston who twice dismantled a peak Cleveland Williams was an awesome heavyweight.

BALTIMORA wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Marciano's pressure style would never work against a fighter much bigger and stronger.

It would against one who had no heart and an even worse chin.

Before we get into a 'peak/prime' Tyson discussion AGAIN and I'm compelled to neck whatever I can find underneath the sink, Tyson wasn't as chinny as you're making out there coxy. He's hardly Enzo.

He said worse chin then Marciano...No mention of being chinny BALTI...Disagree with him though on the no heart issue

Tyson has more heart than coxy, has the heart to step in and face the likes of Lewis...Something I doubt you would have the heart to do.

If its 'who beats who' then SURELY Holmes should be above Ali, seeing as Holmes beat Ali.

Just ask Walcott and La Starza how they felt after their fights with Marciano, one was on the receiving end of the most brutal KO in boxing history while the other had broken arms caused by punches, a small man yes and most likely beaten comfortably by the likes of Lewis, Holmes, Ali, Liston and Foreman but against anyone else he has every chance of knocking them out.

HumanWindmill wrote:Just occurred to me that Sonny Liston isn't on the list.

Head - to - head he'd be a tough night for anybody on his best night. Sound technician, vicious puncher, authoritative jabber, with a reach the equal of Lennox Lewis' and a very strong chin.

The Liston who twice dismantled a peak Cleveland Williams was an awesome heavyweight.

Along with Tyson, Dempsey and Foreman...the most feared heavyweights ever

HumanWindmill wrote:Just occurred to me that Sonny Liston isn't on the list.

Head - to - head he'd be a tough night for anybody on his best night. Sound technician, vicious puncher, authoritative jabber, with a reach the equal of Lennox Lewis' and a very strong chin.

The Liston who twice dismantled a peak Cleveland Williams was an awesome heavyweight.

Good point. I was thinking of him. I would tip Liston to beat Marciano.

The genius of PBF wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Marciano's pressure style would never work against a fighter much bigger and stronger.

It would against one who had no heart and an even worse chin.

Before we get into a 'peak/prime' Tyson discussion AGAIN and I'm compelled to neck whatever I can find underneath the sink, Tyson wasn't as chinny as you're making out there coxy. He's hardly Enzo.

He said worse chin then Marciano...No mention of being chinny BALTI...Disagree with him though on the no heart issue

Tyson has more heart than coxy, has the heart to step in and face the likes of Lewis...Something I doubt you would have the heart to do.

Do yourself a favour and check your facts before posting simply to 'have a go'. Coxy said:

Tyson was exposed as a chinless wonder

Thanks.

Harrison beat Williams
Williams beat Tyson
Tyson beats Holmes
Holmes beats Ali

Harrison the greatest

HumanWindmill wrote:Just occurred to me that Sonny Liston isn't on the list.

Head - to - head he'd be a tough night for anybody on his best night. Sound technician, vicious puncher, authoritative jabber, with a reach the equal of Lennox Lewis' and a very strong chin.

The Liston who twice dismantled a peak Cleveland Williams was an awesome heavyweight.

Agreed Windy, in a head to head basis which doesn't account for style so is largely pointless, can only say that i'd be confident in backing Ali to beat him, against Lewis and Holmes think his superior snappy jab could win the day

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Just ask Walcott and La Starza how they felt after their fights with Marciano, one was on the receiving end of the most brutal KO in boxing history while the other had broken arms caused by punches, a small man yes and most likely beaten comfortably by the likes of Lewis, Holmes, Ali, Liston and Foreman but against anyone else he has every chance of knocking them out.

Riddick Bowe?

Tyson had a brilliant chin, even at 35 well past his best he took 8 rounds of punishment from Lewis, not an easy thing to do

BALTIMORA wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Marciano's pressure style would never work against a fighter much bigger and stronger.

It would against one who had no heart and an even worse chin.

Before we get into a 'peak/prime' Tyson discussion AGAIN and I'm compelled to neck whatever I can find underneath the sink, Tyson wasn't as chinny as you're making out there coxy. He's hardly Enzo.

He said worse chin then Marciano...No mention of being chinny BALTI...Disagree with him though on the no heart issue

Tyson has more heart than coxy, has the heart to step in and face the likes of Lewis...Something I doubt you would have the heart to do.

Do yourself a favour and check your facts before posting simply to 'have a go'. Coxy said:

Tyson was exposed as a chinless wonder

Thanks.

Do yourself a favour and quote it then!

Thanks

Ignore Coxy. He's just upset because he is a low skilled worker.... A web designer, pretty easy stuff. A very respected colleague of mine once compared the skill of a road sweeper to a web designer.

"A broom is more difficult than java" he exclaimed!

GaryMabbuttYidLegend wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Just ask Walcott and La Starza how they felt after their fights with Marciano, one was on the receiving end of the most brutal KO in boxing history while the other had broken arms caused by punches, a small man yes and most likely beaten comfortably by the likes of Lewis, Holmes, Ali, Liston and Foreman but against anyone else he has every chance of knocking them out.

Riddick Bowe?

Think he beats Bowe 8 times out of 10

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Just occurred to me that Sonny Liston isn't on the list.

Head - to - head he'd be a tough night for anybody on his best night. Sound technician, vicious puncher, authoritative jabber, with a reach the equal of Lennox Lewis' and a very strong chin.

The Liston who twice dismantled a peak Cleveland Williams was an awesome heavyweight.

Agreed Windy, in a head to head basis which doesn't account for style so is largely pointless, can only say that i'd be confident in backing Ali to beat him, against Lewis and Holmes think his superior snappy jab could win the day

Certainly agree about the styles thing, Ghosty.

The old adage : ' Boxer beats slugger beats swarmer beats boxer ' isn't always apt, but it's not a bad guideline. We need only think of the Ali / Frazier / Foreman round robin to see the underlying point.

Jimmy Wilde was a great great flyweight, beat bigger men, yes, but no one north of featherweight who was ever really that good.

He was a natural and small flyweight, why should he go upto feather? Dear me. And i guess we shouldn't give him any credit for beating Lynch @ Bantamweight then.

Tyson has more heart than coxy, has the heart to step in and face the likes of Lewis...Something I doubt you would have the heart to do.

Amusing comment of the day. Yup, i'm always going to have a chance to get in with a hw world champion because i've earnt the right to be there. Great comparison. Trot on please.

Pbf: you're the one trying to belittle me, the onus is on YOU to do your research.

The first 'Super sized' heavyweight Liston fought he quit. Saying that he was probably in his 50's!

coxy0001 wrote:

Jimmy Wilde was a great great flyweight, beat bigger men, yes, but no one north of featherweight who was ever really that good.

He was a natural and small flyweight, why should he go upto feather? Dear me. And i guess we shouldn't give him any credit for beating Lynch @ Bantamweight then.

Tyson has more heart than coxy, has the heart to step in and face the likes of Lewis...Something I doubt you would have the heart to do.

Amusing comment of the day. Yup, i'm always going to have a chance to get in with a hw world champion because i've earnt the right to be there. Great comparison. Trot on please.

No the most amusing comment when you said Tyson was chinless wonder...Always thought you looked at boxrec

Tyson proved many times in his career he had a chin

coxy0001 wrote:

Jimmy Wilde was a great great flyweight, beat bigger men, yes, but no one north of featherweight who was ever really that good.

He was a natural and small flyweight, why should he go upto feather? Dear me. And i guess we shouldn't give him any credit for beating Lynch @ Bantamweight then.

Tyson has more heart than coxy, has the heart to step in and face the likes of Lewis...Something I doubt you would have the heart to do.

Amusing comment of the day. Yup, i'm always going to have a chance to get in with a hw world champion because i've earnt the right to be there. Great comparison. Trot on please.

Give him credit, yes, but thats only a few pounds north. Lewis would out weight Marciano by 5 STONE

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Ignore Coxy. He's just upset because he is a low skilled worker.... A web designer, pretty easy stuff. A very respected colleague of mine once compared the skill of a road sweeper to a web designer.

"A broom is more difficult than java" he exclaimed!

Bearing in mind yesterday you were on about javascript and now you're saying java leads me to believe you don't actually know what you're on about. Mainly because java would never be used by a pure web designer as an application developer (which is what java inherently is) would be in charge of using such a programming language.

And you claim to be an IT manager? Thank god i'm not working under you

GaryMabbuttYidLegend wrote:The first 'Super sized' heavyweight Liston fought he quit. Saying that he was probably in his 50's!

Unfair.

Ali was a phenomenon. Liston chopped down the large and dangerous Cleveland Williams like an old tree. Don't see Liston losing to Moorer and don't see him nearly coming a cropper against Bert Cooper.

Tyson proved many times in his career he had a chin

Apart from getting wobbled by Bruno, knocked out by a journeyman, knocked out by a supposedly shot Holyfield.... lets not mention the rest shall we.

Funny how they didn't want any part of Lewis until he needed the money eh?

Would give Tyson a chance against Lewis for instance who I think beats Foreman but Tyson stands little chance against Foreman

A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean A beats C

If this article has achieved anything then it's to establish the fact that Tyson was far from the "chinless wonder" that Coxy is making out.

He took an almighty beating against Lennox beofre going over in eight, a thorough beating against Douglas who bar the "long count" won pretty much every round. Took a vicious shots early in Holyfield 1 before bowing out in the eleventh and survived hefty bangs againt Bonecrusher and (don't laugh) Bruno as well. Hardly a chinless wonder and despite his failings as a person outside of the ring you can't say he lacked heart inside it.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Would give Tyson a chance against Lewis for instance who I think beats Foreman but Tyson stands little chance against Foreman

A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean A beats C

Spot on, thats the problem I had with this list. Foreman would slaughter Tyson due to styles, but I could see him struggling against Holyfields movement and boxing ability for example.

coxy0001 wrote:

Tyson proved many times in his career he had a chin

Apart from getting wobbled by Bruno, knocked out by a journeyman, knocked out by a supposedly shot Holyfield.... lets not mention the rest shall we.

Funny how they didn't want any part of Lewis until he needed the money eh?

Ali got decked by Henry Cooper did he not have a chin...No shame in getting stopped by a great in Holyfield

If you cant see that Tyson did have a chin then I feel very sorry for you.

coxy0001 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Ignore Coxy. He's just upset because he is a low skilled worker.... A web designer, pretty easy stuff. A very respected colleague of mine once compared the skill of a road sweeper to a web designer.

"A broom is more difficult than java" he exclaimed!

Bearing in mind yesterday you were on about javascript and now you're saying java leads me to believe you don't actually know what you're on about. Mainly because java would never be used by a pure web designer as an application developer (which is what java inherently is) would be in charge of using such a programming language.

And you claim to be an IT manager? Thank god i'm not working under you

We've got a nibble on the line... Reel him in guys.