Graham Henry wary of All Blacks burnout for the World Cup

by robbo277 Thu 14 Jul 2011, 11:13 pm

After Nick Easter recently caused a scandal on these boards by claiming that players from the Tri-Nations countries could burn out before the World Cup, Graham Henry has come out and said that "A lot of (his players) are overdone at the moment."

New Zealand coach Graham Henry admits many of his players are "overdone" as they prepare to begin a Test season which will culminate in the World Cup.

The All Blacks play Fiji next Friday, 22 July, before four matches in the Tri-Nations series, which does not finish until two weeks before the RWC.

Henry believes he will have to "bring players down" and rest players before the World Cup starts on 9 September.

"A lot of them are overdone at the moment," he told BBC Radio 5live.

"Take [Super 15 finalists] the Crusaders for example. They have been all over the world and have been playing on a lot of emotion. They can't maintain that level of intensity for the next three months.

"So even though we're going into an international season, we're going to have to bring the players down to bring them back up again. That's going to be a major challenge.
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The English side is getting better and better and Martin Johnson has done a great job with them

Graham Henry New Zealand coach

"I think we need to take each individual as an individual and work with them to make sure they're the best they can be come the World Cup.

"Some players have played too much football, and have had a very emotional experience during that time. Others have been injured and haven't played. They're all different and we're going to have to treat them as individuals to allow them to peak at the right time."

After winning the inaugural Rugby World Cup in 1987, the All Blacks have failed to win the trophy again, despite having gone into several of the tournaments as hot favourites.

They are almost certain to be favourites for this year's World Cup as well, and Henry admits the pressure on his side is massive - especially as they will be playing on home soil, as they did in 1987.

"There's huge expectation here," Henry admitted. "I think you always feel the heat and the need to deliver. All international coaches - no matter what sport - will say that. And the need for that takes away the pressure as you don't have time to think about the pressure.

"I'm excited about it and I'm sure the players are. We're really looking forward to playing in front of our own people."

Henry thinks England can be one of the biggest challengers to his side in New Zealand.

"I think the English side is getting better and better and Martin Johnson has done a great job with them," he said. "They have got the potential to be a very fine side in the World Cup I think.

"The Irish have got an all-round side, and have plenty of potency behind the forwards - they could be a threat too. And we'd be foolish not to think the French are a threat; if we haven't learnt from the past [World Cup defeats] we never will."

France shocked the All Blacks 20-18 in Cardiff in the quarter-finals of the last World Cup four years ago, and the Tricolores famously launched a stunning comeback to beat New Zealand 43-31 at Twickenham in the 1999 semi-finals.

"We've got them in our pool and I think that's an advantage - we'd rather have them in the pool than the knock-out stages," Henry added.

by Taylorman Thu 14 Jul 2011, 11:31 pm

The only reason our players are more 'overdone' than the other 3 N is due to the earthquake impacts on the Crusaders and I dont think that was Easters reasoning specifically.

SA and Oz have had the same oven time as NZ otherwise. PDV seems to be thinking the same- has his players in cotton wool but that could be an age thing for some of them- theyre getting on a bit

But Oz all seem fresh and ready to go so theres something there but I reckon all 3 will be fine. Managed but generally, fine.

Rest comes in the pool stage again anyway... Whistle

No worries...

by Rob B Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:48 am

Deans is doing something similar - only 1 Reds player in the 15 this week.

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:03 am

Yep, no surprise and others need game time...

by robbo277 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:06 am

So, Easter said that playing a full International schedule might burn players out. Now it comes out that the coaches of these teams believe that also and are all looking into resting and rotating.

There was a lot of SH bravado on the Easter thread, even from you two. At the end of the day, after the longest Super Rugby season in history these players are going into a LONG international window, and as Henry says his top players (especially the Crusaders) can't keep this intensity up for another 3 months. There will be players rested in the Tri-Nations. If the Tri-Nations should be a full-blooded tournament with every country playing their strongest 22 every match, then I think Easter is 100% right and those top players would suffer burnout and not perform at the World Cup.

Despite the -in my opinion- obvious sense in what he was saying, his comments were largely ridiculed. Now, it seems that the SH coaches are thinking on the exact same wavelength and rotating their squads before the World Cup. And if they value that tournament at all, they are right to.

by Rob B Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:27 am

I think Deans will adopt that strategy only this week. And it is only because Reds went through to the final of s15 and so they had an extended season relative to the other teams. They were/are on a hell of high and need to come down from that.

After this week, he will play his best 15 that are not injured throughout the 3N. He wants to win it, unlike SA who don't seem to care this year about 3N when it doesn't suit them.

by **Biltong** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 7:23 am

Could this be that Henry will also have some "injured" players in the Tri Nations.

No! surely that won't be the case.

Besides that, any public anouncements by these international coaches are BS, and anyone paying particular attention to them should be drawn and quartered.

by The Great Aukster Fri 15 Jul 2011, 8:24 am

Shocking news - SH coaches devalue 3N Tests in favour of the RWC?

So is the RWC more important that the average 3N game after all?

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:25 pm

No. Once again you draw it out beyond its intention.
The rest will come over the next couple of weeks. The fiji samoa matches. Come 3N the abs will be at full tick. Thats in two weeks.
Same with oz i believe.
Cant speak for pdv as hes a clown and probably read easters column without knowing who he was and went straight into project cottonwool.
Though in fairness its unlikely as he never listens to anyone anyway.

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:32 pm

Mind you. At this very moment it does feel as though some players could be overdone. Mainly those saders forwards who gave toughed it out over the season.
But some are underdone and many are turning out today for the itm if theyre not in training with the abs.

by TheGreyGhost Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:08 pm

Let's face it. The RWC isn't such a tough tournament. A few knock out romps and then three matches, invariably one of which is against NH opposition. The factors that make the RWC difficult to win is it's infrequency. A spot of bad luck here, rough draw, an off game there, or a poor ref the other and you wait for years for it to rock around again.

The 3N will be tougher to win, and is a fairer contest, based on home and away matches and finding the most consistent side across consistent opposition.

As far as the RWC goes you have to let the chips fall where they may and just show up and give yourself the best chance possible.

As the Dali Lama says, it's folly to try to prepare for a coin toss, and to a certain extent this applies to the RWC. I worry Henry has become a little obsessed, captain Ahab and all that.

by Pot Hale Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:04 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:Let's face it. The RWC isn't such a tough tournament. A few knock out romps and then three matches, invariably one of which is against NH opposition. The factors that make the RWC difficult to win is it's infrequency. A spot of bad luck here, rough draw, an off game there, or a poor ref the other and you wait for years for it to rock around again.

The 3N will be tougher to win, and is a fairer contest, based on home and away matches and finding the most consistent side across consistent opposition.

As far as the RWC goes you have to let the chips fall where they may and just show up and give yourself the best chance possible.

As the Dali Lama says, it's folly to try to prepare for a coin toss, and to a certain extent this applies to the RWC. I worry Henry has become a little obsessed, captain Ahab and all that.

Classic English arrogance there, Grey Ghost. Other teams might view it differently. The 3N has not been a home and away basis since the teams play each other 3 or sometimes even four times - to the point of total boredom in the view of many SANZAR fans. The advent of the Quad Nations with home and away against the other 3 countries will radically improve it - although it remains to be seen how competitive Argentina are going to be.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:15 am

Yeah Grey its just the kind of thing one would say when one hasnt won it often.
You just wouldnt be making those sort of comments if we had won the last 3 or 4.
You'd still be right, but you probably wouldnt feel the need to express it.
Anyway, on and up.

by TheGreyGhost Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:31 am

I disagree. If NZ had won it the last 3 or 4 times, you'd just be agreeing with me.

by blackcanelion Sat 16 Jul 2011, 4:33 am

I think I agree with GG. The tri nations is generally harder to win, given the teams involved, the number of games and the home and away factor. However, obviously the World cup is the onw you want. It's the world championship, it only comes around once every four years. The point is you may only get one shot at it.

I think Grahams point is that the AB's are handicapped by there inability to rest and rotate, due to local media and fan pressure. I think it's incredibly dfifficult to challange for the world cup under these circumstances. So he's signally he'll rest players.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 5:46 am

I didnt say I didnt agree with GG. I actually said I did agree with it. I just wouldnt have expressed it that way in comparison knowing what we know.

Anyway, In particular, last years 3N- 3 vs Oz and 3 vs SA in 7 weeks is far and away tougher than any world cup format.

At best there might be 3 matches of the same calibre. In amongst them are a serious of mismatches and a couple of Autumn International type last 8 fixtures as one offs.

Could anyone outside play any 2 of SA, NZ or Aus over 6 matches and come out ahead of both?

I think those teams which much prefer the WCup as its one offness gives them a 'levelling' chance. After winning a big one they dont need to back it up 2 or 3 more times.

by Rob B Sat 16 Jul 2011, 12:17 pm

3N is a harder tournament, but more likely to uncover the winner as the best team as more game against each other.
RWC is more of a lottery, but maintains its status as the most prestigious event. Does it uncover the best side as the winner? Most countries would argue yes. Except one perhaps.

by Gibson Sat 16 Jul 2011, 4:01 pm

If the 3-N is harder to win, why havent the AB's won 2 or 3 more RWC's ?

by TheGreyGhost Sat 16 Jul 2011, 5:01 pm

Like I said. The 3N is about being the best side consistently across the various time zones and conditions. There's a large amount of luck required to win the RWC, you can win the 3N after suffering at the hands of a dodgy ref, or copping a case of food poisoning. In the RWC this isn't true.

by Intotouch Sat 16 Jul 2011, 6:10 pm

The pressure in the World Cup is more intense for obvious reasons. Pressure makes the competition more difficult psychologically than any 3nations.

The quality of the opposition is not so far off 3 n standards. For example sides like France and Argentina get more time to prepare together for the RWC than they do at any other time so there is stiffer opposition from more than just the two other countries that are regular opposition in the 3n. France have played to a serious high standard in world cups.

Is a competition more difficult that allows teams to play the same opposition a few times in a row? Knowing if you lose you get another in a week? Or at the competition itself in twelve months? I'm not so sure. The stakes are higher when there are one off matches. Psychological factors start to play a bigger part in who wins.

by majesticimperialman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 6:52 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Like I said. The 3N is about being the best side consistently across the various time zones and conditions. There's a large amount of luck required to win the RWC, you can win the 3N after suffering at the hands of a dodgy ref, or copping a case of food poisoning. In the RWC this isn't true.

GG, Surely if you are the number one ranked team in the world and have been for the last 3 years, Then surely when it comes to Rugtby World Cups, Luck should not come in to it, right.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 10:38 pm

Yep good points.
The world cup certainly is hard for the AB's to win. Doesnt make it a harder tournament.

Question:

If there was a combined 6N 3N tournament- full round robin one match both home and away- 9 Nations- which would the 6N teams favour themselves winning? that or the current world cup?

It could be done with reshuffling. It would mean the Northern teams would travel once and play all 3 then play the effective 6N and AI's at home.

Same with the 3N. Play ours and throughout make the AI tour to play the away matches. Perhaps bring in Argie just to make it a full 10.

by majesticimperialman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 10:50 pm

Taylormam

I like your idea. Maybe it might happen, with argentina making it four nations after the RWC.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:37 pm

Yeah I put that up on 606 some time ago but in looking at the amount of travel the saders did this year this wouldnt be anywhere near it. Perhaps a two yearly thing but other than the 6N teams coming here regularly most of the matches are already happening.

Last year we played Ireland and Wales both home and away, the 3N and the AI's where we only missed Italy and France so all we had to do was play England, France scot and Italy here and Italy/ France in the NH.

6 tests off the full 9 home and away. Not far away.

by The Great Aukster Sun 17 Jul 2011, 8:09 am

Sorry but having a 10 team home and away test series every year is ridiculous.

This year with the world cup the number of tests have been reduced with someone of Henry's standing acknowledging that some players are overdone - so the answer is to extend this and have it every year!

Tests should be special with each one having it's own identity. Turning them into an international league season would see one game merge into the next, with the overall result being more important than any specific game. The unique one-off nature of a Test is reflected much better in the anachronistic RWC. That has far more charm and is more in the Corinthian spirit than a long drawn out slugfest to assuage the fragile NZ psyche that they indeed have the best players on the planet.

The value of a Cup competition every four years creates balance to the elements, without it fans like GG would have nothing to whinge about!

by Taylorman Sun 17 Jul 2011, 9:11 am

So whats was special about the warmups this year, the AI's, the Wales and Irish tours of NZ last year, the Oz Samoa match today. Whats uniquely special about any of those?

Were they all special with each one having its own identity?

What a lod of rot. It was just a floated idea. Didnt say it every year either.

"Creates balance to the elements", " Corinthian Spirit"

Geez. Youre on the wrong boards buddy. Hamlets around the corner.

What youre really saying is such a competition would be beyond the abilities of your team, cause some would actually like the idea. Scared of a bit of competition ay? Lets have friendlys all over the place.

Oh... and no need to apologize.

by The Great Aukster Sun 17 Jul 2011, 11:11 am

Taylorman wrote:What youre really saying is such a competition would be beyond the abilities of your team, cause some would actually like the idea. Scared of a bit of competition ay? Lets have friendlys all over the place.

Oh... and no need to apologize.

Obviously there was a great need to apologise considering how ruffled your feathers are that someone should challenge your idea.

You seem a tad unclear as to what I actually said, so what I'm really saying is that it's a bad idea. Where have I said anything about the abilities of my team? AFAIK they play against your team fairly regularly and they still enter the RWC, so I don't think their poor record has any bearing on their desire to keep playing against them. If anything I'm sure the team would wish to play against the ABs more often because everyone acknowledges them as the gold standard.

It's a bad idea:
1. Senior respected coaches realise that players are playing too much rugby, and adding to that workload is bad for players. It's especially bad for nations who have small playing numbers as they don't have the depth to play a lot more tests and maintain a competitive standard. So the overall standard therefore drops and the gap between the teams with large pools widens.
2. Unions would be forced to rest players from their domestic competitions. That would encourage greater influx from nations with player surplus and also from those nations outside the elite 10. This would further restrict playing opportunities for young players, and disenfranchise a lot of fans.
3. Events like the RWC and the 6N, would be devalued. There would be no point in a Lions tour. Yet the fans love these events, so all that revenue is threatened, and that's something a professional sport should pay heed to.
4. What about all the other teams? Should Samoa be denied an opportunity to play Australia, or Fiji to play Wales? How do you grow the game when the top teams don't play outside the 10N? Or are those fixtures added into the schedule as well? Why should it just be ten teams? (The ICC has rightly been challenged by trying to restrict the cricket world cup.)
5. Some fans travel to follow their team halfway across the world. About once every four years to see a series of matches is just about affordable. But would they go to see one game that happened far more frequently? Sure the armchair fans get a more regular fix, but gate receipts are still an important revenue stream.
6. What is the demand for it? The traditional best three rugby nations already play each other in the 3N, and Argentina will add much needed variety. The 6N is as popular as ever, with full stadia and a big tv audience. Having some protracted competition sprawling over both hemispheres doesn't have the natural sporting feel that a discrete RWC has.

by Intotouch Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:34 pm

I agree with Aukster. What's rare is wonderful.

by TheGreyGhost Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:42 pm

"That has far more charm and is more in the Corinthian spirit than a long drawn out slugfest to assuage the fragile NZ psyche that they indeed have the best players on the planet."

Whenever I feel the need to assuaged I just look at the number of NZ players in other first teams. As I've said before, South Africa stand alone as the only country who doesn't have at least one.

I don't need to global tournament to convince me of anything. It's obvious whenever something like Waldrom being selecting over Narraway occurs.

by Taylorman Sun 17 Jul 2011, 9:22 pm

"Obviously there was a great need to apologise considering how ruffled your feathers are that someone should challenge your idea."

Well at least thats got you wasting time on it. I couldn't give a toss about the idea, just threw it out there. The points you make have equal and as compelling opposite arguments "Argentina will add some much needed variety" Whats that about? Why is it much needed. I think looking at their current situation they'll be lambs to the slaughter. The idea was floated when they made a single appearance in a WC semi. Since then they've gone backwards.

There would be no point to a lions tour? Here there's been no point for decades.

And you've already decided that the format would automatically exclude those outside the 10- when did this detail get added to the mix?

How does the game grow in Europe when the 6N means that? 6?

With your thinking its a wonder anything new gets a hearing.

by emack2 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 1:43 am

I think with the increasing numbers of Test matches and High pressure tournaments World wide players are going to suffer.
Players like Victor Matfield have gone on record as saying a 3Ns is more difficult to win than a RWC. It has also been said about the 6Ns.The difference being in a knockout tournament there are always shocks.
Who would have picked Argentina to reach a third place in a RWC beating France twice.
Once in a good year a player would play 6 Tests,maybe earn 25 caps and retire at 25 or 6.
Today make that 15,approaching a 100 caps and mid 30`s in RWCs teams like the Pacific Islanders or Argentina only field there full strength sides in RWCs earning there wages in Europe in Top14 or where ever.
Like it or not this years S15 has caused horrendous injury toll,the cynic in me says some have taken a convenently long time to recover.BUT there have been some very nasty ones too.
Pre 2007 there was a lot of player rotation in both Test sides and S14,Jake White was justified because he won a RWC,had he not he would have been roasted alive.
IF as many do people think of the RWC as the be all and end all,then the end justifies the means.
But it seems from recent medical reports world wide there is burn out, and rest and relaxation will be required for ALL players eventually.
You can only function to a peak for so long,IF you are one of the top 3 teams in the world you are expected to produce in EVERY match not just 6 or 7 once every 4 years.
Other teams seem happy with lesser results because maybe expectations are not so high.If you lose a match the media kicks you for a week then it` forgotten.
If your an ALL BLACK or a BOK youare as good as your last game and the media are all over you.There will always be someone with a jibe about choking in RWCs or whatever.

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:11 am

Exactly. The world cup is part rugby tournament, part lottery.

As with all artifacts of gambling, it has a destructive influence and the price we're paying is the natural fabric of rugby traditions.

Who would imagine a Springbok coach would send a reserve side to NZ? Or that an All Black coach would consider resting players in a Bledisloe Cup test? Or that the English side would suggest wearing black and a koru?

It's not natural I tell you and we should stamp it out now before it ruins the entire game.

by **Biltong** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:51 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:Exactly. The world cup is part rugby tournament, part lottery.

As with all artifacts of gambling, it has a destructive influence and the price we're paying is the natural fabric of rugby traditions.

Who would imagine a Springbok coach would send a reserve side to NZ? Or that an All Black coach would consider resting players in a Bledisloe Cup test? Or that the English side would suggest wearing black and a koru?

It's not natural I tell you and we should stamp it out now before it ruins the entire game.

I think we can all agree that the rugby calender is too full. The problem is money is ruining the quality of our game and shortening careers through burn out and injuries. Players simply do not have sufficient time to recover fully from injury. How many players come back without being 100% fit?

The sad thing is Greyghost, there is nothing we can do about it.

by The Great Aukster Mon 18 Jul 2011, 12:46 pm

Taylorman wrote:"Obviously there was a great need to apologise considering how ruffled your feathers are that someone should challenge your idea."

Well at least thats got you wasting time on it. I couldn't give a toss about the idea, just threw it out there. The points you make have equal and as compelling opposite arguments "Argentina will add some much needed variety" Whats that about? Why is it much needed. I think looking at their current situation they'll be lambs to the slaughter. The idea was floated when they made a single appearance in a WC semi. Since then they've gone backwards.

There would be no point to a lions tour? Here there's been no point for decades.

And you've already decided that the format would automatically exclude those outside the 10- when did this detail get added to the mix?

How does the game grow in Europe when the 6N means that? 6?

With your thinking its a wonder anything new gets a hearing.

I’m flattered you think my time is so precious, but disappointed you think your own idea is so bad as to consider any critique of it a waste of time. Considering you “put that up on 606 some time ago”, is it really just a floated idea or a re-launch? Either way it’s surprising that you “couldn't give a toss about the idea”, when you still feel the need to indulge in a personal barb.

It would seem that you’re not keen on Argentina joining the 3N on the strength of “a single appearance in a WC semi” and they will be “lambs to the slaughter”, yet in your proposed format you would “bring in Argie just to make it a full 10”? I take it you don’t know whether you want them or not?

Your initial question concerned “a combined 6N 3N tournament” with the Pumas added at the end of that post, so I assumed you meant the 6N + 3N + Argentina making a “full 10”. I thought by “full” that you meant 'filled up', and therefore didn’t realise that you intend to include other teams in the mix. I have no “format” for such a League other than the one you presented, so how could I decide on how it works? Perhaps you could explain how your competition includes those teams outside the aforementioned 10 and how many more fixtures this will add? Do you have a format?

BTW I agree that six does indeed mean six, but the 6N only became so in 2000, prior to which it was known as the 5N. I suppose it just didn’t seem right to still call it the ‘Five Nations’ after Italy had been added. The NH Unions have a history of this type of logic as they also scrapped the old ‘Four Nations’ designation when France joined. Perhaps there were calls to try something “new”, such as the ‘North American Space Agency’ or ‘My Aunt’s a fish’, but after a suitable hearing such wonderful innovative thinking was rejected?

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