Louis - Conn - Nailing the myths

This is an article that Jeffreyrowley originally posted on 606 that he has allowed to be posted here:

There is often a lot of inevitable debate on here about who is the greatest heavyweight of all time, with the camps being pretty evenly split between Ali and Louis. Whilst I am firmly in the Ali camp I do not believe the gap between the two is as wide as often portrayed and despite preferring Ali’s claims to top spot thought I would write a thread to deal with one of the bigger sticks that is often used to beat Louis and diminish his claims to top spot, that being his perceived poor showing in the first Conn fight.

Now it would be remiss to claim this was a great performance from the Brown Bomber as patently it wasn’t but having read a bit about this fight in both a biography of Conn I recently finished and on the excellent Cox’s corner it does seem there are often a lot of myths perpetuated about the fight that perhaps need nailing and also a number of mitigating factors that perhaps explain the poor showing from Joe.

The first myth is that Conn was a career lightheavyweight, whilst it is undoubtedly true he did his best work at that weight and is deservedly an all time great at that weight going into the Louis fight Conn had fought at heavy with some distinction, holding wins over contenders Gus Dorazio, Al McCoy and perhaps most impressively a win over the excellent Bob Pastor, the last being a KO win, which also serves to give lie to the myth Conn was not a puncher.

However perhaps the biggest myth that needs putting to rest is the idea if Conn had coasted he would have won the fight comfortably. This idea, oft repeated is simply not supported by the score cards. After 12 completed rounds the official score cards (the only ones that matter) were 7-5 and 7-4-1 (both to Conn) and 6 all. This means that had Louis swept the last three rounds he would have had scores of 8-7, 7-7-1 and 9-6 meaning he would have took the fight on the cards.

This ties in with the next point the idea that Conn lost the fight because he decided to go for the KO on Louis, whilst over confidence may have played a part in the fight turning round the idea that Louis did nothing the influence the turning tide is perhaps a little harsh. At the end of the 12th, which was Conn’s next round Jack Blackburn was heard to tell Louis he was losing and needed to knock Conn out. The common telling of the fight states that Conn came out more aggressive in the 13th but the film simply does not support this, Conn comes out fighting as he had previously, circling to his left. What does change is, probably based on Blackburn’s stern warning Louis comes out more aggressive firing stiff jabs and firing stiff combinations to the still circling Conn before showing the brilliant finishing skills he was famed for when the opportunity arose.

The other thing that should perhaps be noted is there was a lot of widespread criticism in the press of the weight differential between the fighters in this fight and to respond to this Louis made a point of coming in at under 200lbs, and dehydrated himself quite dangerously to acheive this, which perhaps explains his slightly sluggish showing. Appreciatethis was totally Louis' choice but cannot be overlooked when assessing his performance. All the reports suggest Blackburn was furious with Louis for doing this and it was very much against his wishes.

There is a reasonable argument that it was Louis’ increased aggression that was the real turn around in the fight rather than any change in tactic from Conn. Sugar Ray Leonard is often, rightly praised for turning round a losing fight against Hearns in their first battle, but Louis is often dismissed as having got lucky, despite the fact that as we have already established even had the knockout not come the fight was not a lost cause on the cards.

It is easy to go along with the myth that Conn blew it in this one, and it should be said this was a line Conn was perhaps happy to perpetuate but having read about things a bit closer and watched the fight again it does appear this does the Brown Bomber a disservice. Still think Ali has a greater claim to top spot but think of all the raps thrown against the Brown Bomber the Conn fight is perhaps one of the more undeserved. [b]

Cracking article, If you're reading Jeff all the best always was a top poster on 606.

As for the article many argue and make it out as if Conn was boxing Louis' ears off for 12 rounds, and then got wild and that Louis hit him with one shot and it was all over. It was a competitive boxing match the whole way, with Louis cutting off the ring very effectively whilst maintaining poise and balance and timing Conn on the way in. It was basically Conn's speed that was allowing him to get the better of it; he was that bit quicker to the punch most rounds and landing that right lead off a jab feint. But Louis was having his moments and closing Conn down nicely, and when the fight got to the inside he mostly just manhandled the guy.


And it wasn't like he pulled the KO out of nowhere
it was actually a right hand catching Conn coming in that started it all. Conn had been smashing Louis with the lead left hook from the outside time and time again, but this time Louis spotted it coming and threw a straight right over the top. That started it all, and it didn't take long for Louis' finishing instincts to take over as he broke Conn down until he was open for the final two blows. As methodical a knockout as you'll see, certainly not a Froch-esque or Chavex-esque, last-gasp, pull-the-rabbit-out-of-the-hat one.

Top article

Cheers

Rodders

Rodders, didn't become a regular on 606 until about a year ago but often heard about what a good poster you were before I was around, so will look forward to debating with you fella! I'm lazy, so will just copy and paste what I wrote on Jeff's article yesterday.

Great article, Jeff, with some really good points raised. I agree that as Louis' greatness has set in as each generation goes by, the idea that Conn gave him the beating of a life time and only lost because of his 'fighting Irish' mentality has also snowballed, too.

I like the point you've picked up on regarding Conn's punching power, too. Granted, he hadn't put many fighters away inside the distance, but going in to the Louis fight he was actually on a run of four cosecutive knockouts I believe, which must have been a record for him. It does sometimes get forgotten how good a fighter Conn was, and hence nobody should really have been so surprised that he gave Louis so much trouble; the betting odds for him started at 18-5 apparently, which made him Louis' shortest-priced challenger since Schmeling, and by the time of the fight they stood at 11-5.

I think you're bang on when you mention that the fight had been a lot closer than some think, and that the idea of Louis totally getting his ears boxed off for twelve rounds is simply a myth. The first couple of rounds were non-descript with nothing in them, before Conn had an excellent third and an even better fourth (where he rocked Louis with two rights, which puts paid to the idea that Conn didn't start fighting aggressively until the thirteenth). But Louis had his moments too, which people forget. At the end of the fifth round he had Conn out on his feet with a left hook which opened a cut over Conn's eye, and at the bell Conn was so dazed he went to the wrong corner.

I do think there is an element of truth in the old rumour that Conn got ahead of himself in the thirteenth, but not as much as some people make out. He'd actually been more aggressive in the twelfth for my money (I think the twelfth was his best round) and as you rightly said, Louis deserves credit for making Conn 'fight his fight' in the closing stages, as Conn actually left himself open for the knockout as a result of trying to fight back from a series of rights that Louis had landed.

Great article, much appreciated.

Tis always tough un with the Louis v Conn fight as Conn did give Louis fits for sure.

The scorecards didn't do Conn justice though as he had controlled Louis from the outside pretty handily and Louis had looked flat footed and lethargic and a clear second best.

In essence though, no sportsmen has ALWAYS been at the top of their game and it's how they react when they aren't which often gives a better insight into their qualities as a sportsmen.

In Louis, we had a guy who had been totally dismantled by Schmeling, but who come back a more controlled and technical astute foe and then we have the Conn fight too.

Louis beat Conn, he knocked him out when he really needed too despite being far from his best and fighting a guy who was stylistically giving him nightmares. That tells you a lot more about Louis than the 10 rounds in which Conn danced around him.

Combine this with lessons he'd clearly learnt from the Max defeat and you get a picture of man who had the physical attributes, the power, the speed, the talent, but also of a man with a great willingness to better himself, a man with knowledge of his own limitations, a man with character, a learner, a thinker and a winner. All of this combines to make Joe Louis a bonafide ATG and one of the greatest Heavies ever (just not THE best IMO).

Nice to see you guys have made the switch (Chris and IJK), get the feeling i'll need the backing of you both if i'm gonna get the moderator role, also have to add it's a right pain that your knowledge is so superior to mine Chris despite being 4 years my younger

End of the day a win is a win and a better finisher than Louis i've yet to see, in an instant he could turn things around and once he smelt blood it was goodnight Vienna. He may have been troubled by Conns style for large parts of the fight but despite that picked up on how to counteract it and did to devestating effect, a performance like that proves far more than a shut out ever would, you could have all the skill in the world but without the heart you wont get very far.

Rodders, didn't become a regular on 606 until about a year ago but often heard about what a good poster you were before I was around
______________________________________________________________________________

Thank you for the kind compliment Chris, likewise look forward to discussing and debating with you. Nice to see IJK on board hope you're are well mate, hopefully the likes of Super,Dave,Jeff,Captain and Human Windmill will also follow!

Thanks again & all the best

Rodders

Rodney, will be coming over soon, plan to stick it out on 606 until the bitter end but expect this to become my new home. Glad to see you're on here, you have been missed mate.

Cheers & nice one Jeff, nice to see you're still posting, hope everything is well mate. I did try to re-join BBC 606 but found my old profile was disabled and I couldn't be chewed to be moderated for an eternity waiting all day for my posts to be published (not as though they were worth reading) but anyway, hope to talk boxing with you shortly, say hello to the old regulars on 606 from me.

Nice to hear from you mate.

Cheers

Rodders

Interesting thread from the past......

The op rightly claims that 7-5........and 7-4-1 weren't coastable for Conn....

But having sent Louis rocking... one might assume If he'd decided to coast the rest of the round and spoil a dazed Louis....

Then 8-5 and 8-4-1...........= Coastable.......

So the myth isn't really nailed..

But great to read an old thread.......brought up by playing page-Bingo!!