Kidney Signs New Contract

Kidney has signed a contract extension to the end of the 2012/13 season along with Gert Smal, Les Kiss and Mark Tainton. Gaffney has elected to go back to Australia. His replacement has not be announced.

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/story/144520.html


Thoughts?

I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but will that change if the Irish performance at the world cup isn't as good as expected? Would Kidney be the scape goat?

Have the IRFU learned nothing? O'Sullivan signed a new contract before the last world cup and firing him immediately after was not an option.

Managers are nearly always scapegoats whether it's warrented or not. I'm reserving judgement on how to take this until after our WC campaign.

WillyGilly wrote:Managers are nearly always scapegoats whether it's warrented or not.

That's true.

I hope for Irelands sake that this does not turn into another EOS situation.

Like with what happend the last time.

I'm pleased. I think Kidney is an excellent motivator, head coach but needs to be surrounded by quality coaches.

In my view, we've kept the coaches I like and the one leaving is the one I would like to see replaced.

I hope that we bring in a top-quality backs coach who can bring new ideas to the way we use our backs and shape our new backline post-RWC.

Yeah I'd like to see a new innovative attack coach brought in.

I think it's the right choice as with quite a few players moving on, some continuity was needed. Plus, what other ready made options were there?

Not really any quality Irish coaches with the requisite experience at all; Elwood, Bradley, McLaughlin, O'Shea?

I think Conor O'Shea is the next Irish Irish coach, if you catch my drift, but I'd like the next coach after Kidney to be a guy from outside with top-level test coaching experience. You'd be in a bit of a lottery because you'd feel guys with experience of coaching test sides would move on after the RWC cycle so you could get burnt.

This one year extension is a smart deal for all parties. If the RWC is poor, and they decide we need a new coach, this gives us time to identify a successor.

If Conor O'Shea is as good as any other option at the time we need a new coach, I think the edge should be given to him. Would much prefer an Irish man at the helm.

It's nice, and I'd like to see O'Shea in the job at some point, but I feel we should go for the best qualified candidate

Being Irish helps, being a former Irish international helps though- if there's such a thing as the 'Irish psyche' when it comes to sport he knows it.

I'm surprised the IRFU did this after what happened with EOS. Maybe they had reason to believe other teams were sniffing around the coaches wanting to offer them contracts after the World Cup. I think it would have been better to extend it by one season instead of two.

O'Shea can in a way count as an outside candidate as well.

That's true Munsty.

No problems with this a one year extension to our current coaches with a new emphasis towards attack.

After EOS 2007, have the IRFU learned nothing?

Its quite a bit different Portnoy

Really Stag?

DK has not produced a victory outside any NH side. And then the principle ones have been in Dublin.

He might cost more after a successful RWC, but that's the way it goes.

Eggs and baskets. (Like EOS).

Who do people think will take backs coach? Been a bit disappointed with how Gaffney's reign panned out. The influence Schmidt has had on the Leinster backs has been great

Its different Portnoy:

a) Kidney has only got a contract for 2 years - EOS got a 4 year one.
b) EOS had been coaching Ireland for about 7/8 years - Kidney has only had Ireland for 3. Previous to that EOS had been Gatland's assistant.
c) Kidney delivered a Grand Slam and was IRB coach of the Year for 2009 (not having lost a game that season, including coaching the winning Churchill Cup team).
d) Much and all as I would not like Kidney to coach the Lions, I'd say he is in prime position to be the next coach if Geech doesn't want to do it.

As much as I like Kidney I wouldn't like him to be Lions coach. As a Lions fan.

The difference between a one year contract and a four year contract, Portnoys. That is significant.

I'd like him as Lions coach. I think he understands the dynamic of the squad environment and would be very good for preparing them in such a short period of time.

red_stag wrote:As much as I like Kidney I wouldn't like him to be Lions coach. As a Lions fan.

Not too many coaches up to it there. Alternatives are Gatland & Edwards.

Kidney's strengths are uniting individuals to play well together (i.e., Limerick & Cork for Munster, then Munster & Leinster for Ireland). He also seems to keep his ego under control and gets a great backroom team together. Its quite a coup for the IRFU to get Smal & Kis to stay - a lot of which must be down to Kidney and how he manages his backroom staff.

My take on it is that he has no experience of the Lions ethos. Of what a Lions tour is about. That was the difference between 2005 and 2009. Give me Martin Johnson instead.

red_stag wrote:My take on it is that he has no experience of the Lions ethos. Of what a Lions tour is about. That was the difference between 2005 and 2009. Give me Martin Johnson instead.

Kidney is a very intelligent man - well able to understand the Lions ethos. Anyway, didn't Geech say he wanted the Munster ethos on the last tour (play for the jersey) and thats why he wanted Paul O'Connell as captain and why he wanted so many Munster players in the squad.

Edit: Incidentally, Clive Woodward was a Lion before he lead the 2005 Lions Tour which didn't seem to do him too much good.

red_stag wrote:My take on it is that he has no experience of the Lions ethos. Of what a Lions tour is about. That was the difference between 2005 and 2009. Give me Martin Johnson instead.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was woodward not on two lions tours as a player?

I think Kidney would be a better choice than Johnson. Kidney seems to have a knack of gelling individuals and, depending on the make up of his backroom staff, I think he would do a great job.

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:My take on it is that he has no experience of the Lions ethos. Of what a Lions tour is about. That was the difference between 2005 and 2009. Give me Martin Johnson instead.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was woodward not on two lions tours as a player?

I think Kidney would be a better choice than Johnson. Kidney seems to have a knack of gelling individuals and, depending on the make up of his backroom staff, I think he would do a great job.

He was on 2 - 1980 to SA (Syd Miller) and New Zealand with Willie John McBride in 1983. You think he would have picked up something about the Lions from Willie John!

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:My take on it is that he has no experience of the Lions ethos. Of what a Lions tour is about. That was the difference between 2005 and 2009. Give me Martin Johnson instead.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was woodward not on two lions tours as a player?

I think Kidney would be a better choice than Johnson. Kidney seems to have a knack of gelling individuals and, depending on the make up of his backroom staff, I think he would do a great job.

He was on 2 - 1980 to SA (Syd Miller) and New Zealand with Willie John McBride in 1983. You think he would have picked up something about the Lions from Willie John!

Maybe something to do with the fact he has a bit of an ego? I think kidney would be grand but I doubt he will get it.

Notch wrote:The difference between a one year contract and a four year contract, Portnoys. That is significant.

I think the bigger significance is in offering the contract before a world cup rather than after it. We haven't learned from the last time. The length of the contract is a minor detail.

I guess it's a panic measure. If a coach has a great WC and is out of contract just after it then they can name their price or walk into a better job. But it also means it's costly to cut a coach/manager loose after a bad WC.

The IRFU have learned in terms of making sure they don't offer a long contract, but they're still offering a contract on the back of future results, not those past.

greybeard wrote:

Notch wrote:The difference between a one year contract and a four year contract, Portnoys. That is significant.

I think the bigger significance is in offering the contract before a world cup rather than after it. We haven't learned from the last time. The length of the contract is a minor detail.

I guess it's a panic measure. If a coach has a great WC and is out of contract just after it then they can name their price or walk into a better job. But it also means it's costly to cut a coach/manager loose after a bad WC.

The IRFU have learned in terms of making sure they don't offer a long contract, but they're still offering a contract on the back of future results, not those past.

Kidney has a far better record than Gatland for instance, and look at the contract he got.

Club rugby is much more attractive nowadays. I seem to remember that there were a heck more applicants for the Munster job than the Ireland job at the time and those that were wanted, were definately not interested. Only applicants I think you would get now would be those who think it might be good to have on their cv when they want to coach their own country.

Sin é wrote:Kidney has a far better record than Gatland for instance, and look at the contract he got.

I think we'd be better off not worrying about how other unions conduct their business.

greybeard wrote:

Sin é wrote:Kidney has a far better record than Gatland for instance, and look at the contract he got.

I think we'd be better off not worrying about how other unions conduct their business.

I'm not worrying about anyone else, but it is an indication on who is available. For all we know, the IRFU might have someone lined up who won't be available for 2 years because they are tied into another contract (i.e., Conor O'Shea )

Edit: or Robbie Deans - he is just about to sign a 2 year extension with the ARU.

I wouldn't be too concerned it's only a year extension. EOS was with us for too long a change in coaching can be great as it can prevent things going stale. I have faith in Deccie to introduce the newer generation post WC.

I for one, think this is great news for Irish Rugby.

I think Kidney is a man who works very well as part of a management team that has, to be fair, done quite well with the new law interpretations etc. He clearly has the respect of Smal & Co and the one 'weakness' (imo) the mgmt team had is leaving. Good news.

Ok the acid test is in a few weeks but I suspect the outcome will never be blamed on incorrect preparation or poor morale. Should the poop hit the fan, then the IRFU has 2 years to find a suitable replacement who then has a further 2 years to prepare for the next WC.

Good business if you ask me......

greybeard wrote:Have the IRFU learned nothing? O'Sullivan signed a new contract before the last world cup and firing him immediately after was not an option.

+1



Kiss is the only one who deserves an extension IMO.

roddersm wrote:

greybeard wrote:Have the IRFU learned nothing? O'Sullivan signed a new contract before the last world cup and firing him immediately after was not an option.

+1



Kiss is the only one who deserves an extension IMO.

And how do you think that would work out? The new coach (probably Mike Ruddock as he is probably the only one who would be interested in the job and wouldn't be too tied down by a club/country contract) would be saddled with someone who they might not want. And do you think that Kiss (& Smal, Feek etc) are going to hang around waiting to find out who the new coach after the world cup is and whether they think they can work with them. They are not going to have their minds on the job in hand if they are wondering whether they will be out of a job in a month's time.

Timing is madness.
So if we do badly, at the World Cuip, another big pay off to get rid of a coach we don't want.

You would have thought we would have learnt from the last time

I agree totally Geoff. If we have a poor WC then we'll be stuck with Kidney the way we were with O'Sullivan. It seems the IRFU have learned nothing from the the last WC.

Sin I'm just saying that in my opinion Kiss is the only one of the coaching team who deserves an extension, I realise that if a new coach came in they'd bring their own staff.

roddersm wrote:I agree totally Geoff. If we have a poor WC then we'll be stuck with Kidney the way we were with O'Sullivan. It seems the IRFU have learned nothing from the the last WC.

Sin I'm just saying that in my opinion Kiss is the only one of the coaching team who deserves an extension, I realise that if a new coach came in they'd bring their own staff.

Are we stuck tho??

Its only a 2 year extension. So if the poop hits the fan then the IRFU have lots of time to find the right man, and then IF they want to sack Kidney it will only cost them a years, 18 month salary, not 4 as it was with EOS. To me it seems the IRFU has hedged its bets. If Kidney has a brilliant WC they get to keep him cheaper that resigning after a succesful stint. If he bombs, it costs less to get rid.

Good business if u ask me......

This is daft. Why on earth do teams do this? As well as EOS, England did the same with Capello before the last football World Cup.

Why on earth would you extend any coaches contract BEFORE the very tournament upon which they should be judged. It's not like Ireland had a particularly strong 6 Nations or anything, in fact they played some real dross before coming good against England.

This is dreadful management. Would Kidney have left had he not had his contract extended now? I very much doubt it. Far better to wait.

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Why on earth would you extend any coaches contract BEFORE the very tournament upon which they should be judged. It's not like Ireland had a particularly strong 6 Nations or anything, in fact they played some real dross before coming good against England.

See my answer to your question above....... no he wouldn't have left but he would charge more for his services after the WC should Ireland be succesfull.

Kidney as lions coach with andy robinson as assistant is the perfect mix IMO

funnyExiledScot wrote: It's not like Ireland had a particularly strong 6 Nations or anything, in fact they played some real dross before coming good against England.

Exactly. If we had won another GS you could understand it but we've been on a downward spiral under Kidney since 2009. The performance against England apart we haven't delivered a substantial performance in two seasons despite having the best squad of players we've ever had.

i agree Rodders, but thats ignoring the fact that we were riddled with injuries to key players and in the midst of a seismic shift in gameplan away from the gameplan that won that GS but was no longer supported by the law 'interpretations'.

Most people agree do they not that the England game was a culmination of an evolving gameplan where Ireland built game on game since Scotland in the previous 6N?

I dont think ANY coach would have been able to deal with circumstances any differently.

funnyExiledScot wrote:This is daft. Why on earth do teams do this? As well as EOS, England did the same with Capello before the last football World Cup.

Why on earth would you extend any coaches contract BEFORE the very tournament upon which they should be judged. It's not like Ireland had a particularly strong 6 Nations or anything, in fact they played some real dross before coming good against England.

This is dreadful management. Would Kidney have left had he not had his contract extended now? I very much doubt it. Far better to wait.

Who says that the world cup should be the tournament that the coaches should be judged on? Ireland has slightly different expectations than New Zealand - and when they spectacularly flopped the last time, they didn't sack their coach and they had very decent candidates available for the job (Deans & Gatland).

With Kidney's coaching record, I'd be pretty sure a few clubs would have their eye on him and he did say about a year ago that he missed day-to-day rugby as an international manager. I'd also say that Kiss & Smal would be very much in demand. Considering Australia don't have a great defence, I'd be pretty sure they would be keeping an eye on Kiss.

Thing is, just after a world cup is not a great time to change your international coach as it differs with the club end of year cycle. After 6Ns is a much better time and it looks like the IRFU are now trying to rectify that cycle.

For Kidney to earn a new contract, what would be the minimum requirement you would set? A quarter final (having to beat USA, Russia & Italy)? I'd be fairly confident that Ireland will do that. Australia is another question? Would you renew his contract if Ireland lose to Australia in the group stages of the world cup?

For the record, when Kidney didn't work out as EOS's assistant back in 2003, he turned down a job as head of Youth Development or some such because it wasn't what he wanted to do and headed off to the Dragons as head coach, so I'd say if Ireland fail spectacularly, Kidney would resign (which would mean he would not have to be compensated for). I seem to remember EOS resigning as well so its not as if he had to be paid off.

OnASideNote wrote:

Most people agree do they not that the England game was a culmination of an evolving gameplan where Ireland built game on game since Scotland in the previous 6N?

I'd like to believe that that is the case but you can't possibly deduce that after 1 game.

My own suspicion is the Kidney got lucky as through process of elimination Earls ended up at 15 and O'Leary was injured. I think if we'd started with the team that played France or Italy then we probably would have lost against England. I'd love to believe it was all a kidney masterstroke but for me I need to see more games to see if we have turned a corner or if it is just a false dawn.

OnASideNote wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Why on earth would you extend any coaches contract BEFORE the very tournament upon which they should be judged. It's not like Ireland had a particularly strong 6 Nations or anything, in fact they played some real dross before coming good against England.

See my answer to your question above....... no he wouldn't have left but he would charge more for his services after the WC should Ireland be succesfull.

You're clutching at straws I'm afraid. This is not shrewd, it's daft. You judge on performance, not potential performance. If Ireland have a stinker, you end up having to pay a heap of cash to get rid of the guy. You seem to suggest that it's only a trivial amount of money, it's not, especially when it should have been zero. Why on earth would you do that when you can just honour the existing contract and then extend it after the WC when you've seen the culmination of Kidney's masterplan? You also seem to think that you'll be saving yourself some money here. Again, you're just guessing. Do you really think Kidney's salary would shoot up if Ireland made the QFs or the semis? He may get a performance bonus, but I really doubt you'll see a massive increase in his demands. But I'm guessing too, truth is that neither of us know how the money would stack up, but what is a fact, is that if Ireland bomb out and lose to Italy, you've just extended a contract that you didn't need to, and it will certainly cost you money to fix the issue.

Yes, it's a less daft move than the EOS 4 year extension, but it's still unneccesary.

roddersm wrote:

OnASideNote wrote:

Most people agree do they not that the England game was a culmination of an evolving gameplan where Ireland built game on game since Scotland in the previous 6N?

I'd like to believe that that is the case but you can't possibly deduce that after 1 game.

My own suspicion is the Kidney got lucky as through process of elimination Earls ended up at 15 and O'Leary was injured. I think if we'd started with the team that played France or Italy then we probably would have lost against England. I'd love to believe it was all a kidney masterstroke but for me I need to see more games to see if we have turned a corner or if it is just a false dawn.

You can argue ifs and buts BUT u cant argue with the stats, errors reduced game on game. We have a very healthy for against ratio pointing to a damn good defensive plan. Our cup (however it happened) is half full. We can all see that the mood in the camp is COMPLETELY different to last time round and the 50 players genuinely believe there is a space up for grabs on the plane.


Kidney may draw the ire of foreigners for his media but he certainly knows how to foster team spirit.

Yes, it's a less daft move than the EOS 4 year extension, but it's still unnecessary.

Well, thats your opinion but mine is that its good business by the IRFU. It also shows their confidence in Kidney & Co, and thats good for the WC surely?

OnASideNote wrote:
We have a very healthy for against ratio pointing to a damn good defensive plan.

Exactly why I'm delighted that Kiss is staying but I remain very unconvinced about Kidney, Gaffney and Smal.

I'm willing to give Kidney the benefit of the doubt as far as the WC goes based on the England performance but I just don't understand the timing of these extensions.