Kidney Signs New Contract

First topic message reminder :


Kidney has signed a contract extension to the end of the 2012/13 season along with Gert Smal, Les Kiss and Mark Tainton. Gaffney has elected to go back to Australia. His replacement has not be announced.

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/story/144520.html


Thoughts?

He should take some of the responsibility but I think you also need to give him some credit or put some of the responsibility on the players.

roddersm wrote:Guys I'm glad you are all so confident in Kidney and if you are right and I am wrong then no one will be happier than me.

I'm not going to sit and debate every point raised otherwise we'll be here all day but I believe Kidney has to take a fair bit of the responsibility for many of our poor performances over the past 18 months.

I think the timing is wrong to extend his contract and I don't think he deserves it based on our recent form. It's done now and I hope Kidney can lead our best ever squad of players to our most successful WC ever.

As a matter of interest, who are the coaches that you do rate?

Do you rate McLaughlin for instance?

Did you rate Mark McCall?

Do you rate Nick Mallett?

MBTGOG wrote:He should take some of the responsibility but I think you also need to give him some credit or put some of the responsibility on the players.

Absolutely. I think he handled things fantastically in 2009 and of course he deserves credit when we do well but unfortunately the win over England apart we're not doing very well.

Sin it's about having the right coach at the right place and time for a particular team not about rating or not rating them per se. For example Woodward was perfect for England for a long time but a disaster for the Lions in 2005. The game moves on and players and coaches have to adapt and some coaches are just wrong for a team like Henry and Wales.

Having just trawled through this thread, I would make a couple of points.

1. Just because I don't think Kidney should be extended now, doesn't mean I don't rate him as a coach. During his tenure Ireland have had success, he's proven to be a successful coach over time, and I think on the whole he's done a good job with Ireland. Yes, there have been some poor performances, but as MBGOG notes, you can't always lay blame 100% at the coaches door. Sometimes players make mistakes and don't show up. On the whole, I think Kidney is the right man for Ireland. I would simply wait until after the WC to extend, for the reasons I've stated above.

2. The argument that seems to have emerged above is "right now there's no-one better therefore the extension makes sense". No-one is talking about sacking Kidney now, or at least I'm not. I'm merely saying his next contract should take into account WC performance. Yes, if Ireland get dumped out at the group stage, then Kidney should resign (or be sacked). That's when the debate arises as to his successor, certainly not now.

funnyExiledScot wrote: No-one is talking about sacking Kidney now, or at least I'm not. I'm merely saying his next contract should take into account WC performance. Yes, if Ireland get dumped out at the group stage, then Kidney should resign (or be sacked). That's when the debate arises as to his successor, certainly not now.

+ 1

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:He should take some of the responsibility but I think you also need to give him some credit or put some of the responsibility on the players.

Absolutely. I think he handled things fantastically in 2009 and of course he deserves credit when we do well but unfortunately the win over England apart we're not doing very well.

Sin it's about having the right coach at the right place and time for a particular team not about rating or not rating them per se. For example Woodward was perfect for England for a long time but a disaster for the Lions in 2005. The game moves on and players and coaches have to adapt and some coaches are just wrong for a team like Henry and Wales.

Ah, hear now! You just don't rate Kidney (otherwise, you would not be questioning whether he deserves any credit for Munster's success).

Do you rate McLaughlin for Ulster now? How far to you think he will bring Ulster?

Did you rate Mark McCall when he was at Ulster? How do you think he is doing now with Saracens?

Sin é wrote:
Ah, hear now! You just don't rate Kidney (otherwise, you would not be questioning whether he deserves any credit for Munster's success).

Do you rate McLaughlin for Ulster now? How far to you think he will bring Ulster?

Did you rate Mark McCall when he was at Ulster? How do you think he is doing now with Saracens?

I do rate Kidney for his success for Munster and the 2009 GS. I'm just not convinced given the way things have gone over the past 18 months that he's the man to take Ireland forward. I'd like to see how we go over the WC to see if the England victory is the turning of a corner or just a blip on an otherwise downward spiral.

Don't know much about McGlaughlin but his partnership with Humphreys seems to be working. No idea how far we can go hopefully to the top of Irish rugby at least...

I thought McCall did really well up until 2006/7 when we won the League. I thought he might be a future Ireland coach at the time but then things fell apart at Ulster. No idea what went on (Geoff might be the person to ask) but clearly Saracens are going well now.

Not sure what the last two points are to do with Kidney?

roddersm wrote:
Not sure what the last two points are to do with Kidney?

I just want to see who you rate as a coach and if they are allowed any failings whatsoever?

McLaughlin seems to be doing well, but he has some decent material.

I thought McCall was excellent. He was unfortunate that he had a few bad eggs in the dressing room and he wasn't really given the time or the opportunity to get rid of them.

I wouldn't rule him out as a future Ireland coach. It might suit him better than coaching Ulster as he wouldn't have the fans baying for his head if things were not going right.

McCall was excellent, in my opinion, but sufferred from a few handicaps which in the end were too much.

1 - Ex player who had some difficulty managing former team mates
2 - Some bad eggs in the dressing room (one in particular)
3 - A managment , at the time, who were afraid of said bad eggs, and would not back the manager.

His performances as coach since at Castres and Sarcens are showing his true worth. Delighted for him as you could not meet a nicer man.

Fortunately for Ulster now there is no player who is to big for the team; anybody who is out of order would be sent packaging whoever they are e.g. BJ Botha's departure.

Sin é wrote:
I just want to see who you rate as a coach and if they are allowed any failings whatsoever?

Fair enough Sin but it's a fluid thing not set in stone. Certainly I rated Kidney very highly up until the end of 2009 but I don't like a lot of what I've seen since, in terms of selection, tactics and performance. Hopefully I'll rate highly again post WC.

You can only judge a player or coach on performances and results and for me Kidney has plenty to prove right now.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Fortunately for Ulster now there is no player who is to big for the team; anybody who is out of order would be sent packaging whoever they are e.g. BJ Botha's departure.

BJ has arrived at Munster (pictures of him at training in Waterford on Friday). http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9199.php

Surprising place for him to come to if he has notions of himself being bigger than the team!

The sequence of events were:

He agreed a increase in his salary with David Humphreys.
Munster offered him more
He went back to Humphreys and said match Munsters offer and I'll stay.
Humphreys told him he could leave.

Humphreys was not a happy bunny about him going back on his word.
I heard this displeasure vented publically by Humphreys - no second hand rumour.

geoff998rugby wrote:The sequence of events were:

He agreed a increase in his salary with David Humphreys.
Munster offered him more
He went back to Humphreys and said match Munsters offer and I'll stay.
Humphreys told him he could leave.

Humphreys was not a happy bunny about him going back on his word.
I heard this displeasure vented publically by Humphreys - no second hand rumour.

Wow, from DK to BJ..............

geoff998rugby wrote:The sequence of events were:

He agreed a increase in his salary with David Humphreys.
Munster offered him more
He went back to Humphreys and said match Munsters offer and I'll stay.
Humphreys told him he could leave.

Humphreys was not a happy bunny about him going back on his word.
I heard this displeasure vented publically by Humphreys - no second hand rumour.

Sorry OnASide but!

Are you sure it was Munster who came in with a bigger offer in the first place. From what I understand there is some agreement in place between the provinces that they won't compete against each other for players - for example, Sean Cronin had an offer from London Irish (and was leaving Connacht anyway) before Leinster could step in and offer more than what Connacht had offered.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The sequence of events were:

He agreed a increase in his salary with David Humphreys.
Munster offered him more
He went back to Humphreys and said match Munsters offer and I'll stay.
Humphreys told him he could leave.

Humphreys was not a happy bunny about him going back on his word.
I heard this displeasure vented publically by Humphreys - no second hand rumour.

Sorry OnASide but!

Are you sure it was Munster who came in with a bigger offer in the first place. From what I understand there is some agreement in place between the provinces that they won't compete against each other for players - for example, Sean Cronin had an offer from London Irish (and was leaving Connacht anyway) before Leinster could step in and offer more than what Connacht had offered.

..Sin, Geoff is in the Ulster Supporters Club and his info is normally spot on

OnASideNote wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The sequence of events were:

He agreed a increase in his salary with David Humphreys.
Munster offered him more
He went back to Humphreys and said match Munsters offer and I'll stay.
Humphreys told him he could leave.

Humphreys was not a happy bunny about him going back on his word.
I heard this displeasure vented publically by Humphreys - no second hand rumour.

Sorry OnASide but!

Are you sure it was Munster who came in with a bigger offer in the first place. From what I understand there is some agreement in place between the provinces that they won't compete against each other for players - for example, Sean Cronin had an offer from London Irish (and was leaving Connacht anyway) before Leinster could step in and offer more than what Connacht had offered.

..Sin, Geoff is in the Ulster Supporters Club and his info is normally spot on

Not disputing that it happened, I'm just surprised that one branch of the IRFU would outbid another one, particularly since leinster could do nothing about Cronin until he got an offer from London Irish.

Maybe BJ claimed he got an offer from Munster, and Humphreys knows the story and just showed him the door. I seem to remember BJ tweeting about having had an offer from a French club as well and that he definately wasn't coming to Munster!

To clarify it may well be that Munster matched an offer from a French club so were not seen to be directly competing with another Provinces i.e either an Irish povince matched the deal or he would be playing for no one in Ireland. This was certaintly the rumour at the time.

Humphreys annoyance was because BJ had shaken on a deal and had then backed out of it. Money was not the issue as Afoa was given a contract considerably more than BJ Botha's although, I believe, not as much as Botha is getting at Munster.

This is in part backed up in so far as Humphreys did not have any ill will towards Munster, only BJ.

geoff998rugby wrote:To clarify it may well be that Munster matched an offer from a French club so were not seen to be directly competing with another Provinces i.e either an Irish povince matched the deal or he would be playing for no one in Ireland. This was certaintly the rumour at the time.

Humphreys annoyance was because BJ had shaken on a deal and had then backed out of it. Money was not the issue as Afoa was given a contract considerably more than BJ Botha's although, I believe, not as much as Botha is getting at Munster.

This is in part backed up in so far as Humphreys did not have any ill will towards Munster, only BJ.

So, we can take it BJ won't be getting much of a welcome back up in Ravenhill?

Just while there is a Saffa threadjack i have heard that Muller is out of the 3N. I wonder does that put his RWC chances in jeopardy.

On the Kidney issue. Im not sure i mind him being given that contract up until the end of 2013. Kiss has been an excellent addition and i am glad he has signed on. With a new backs coach we could really be in business. That being said i would have preferred any contract to end in 2012 thus giving any potential new coach a few years to work with new players. It is probably the biggest rebuilding phase we have gone through in almost a decade and im not sure the IRFU will have the balls to get rid of the guy who is in charge halfway between RWC's.

I understand peoples misgivings but im not sure who would be better. A lot will depend on how the likes of Marshall, Nagle, Jones, Gilroy, Conway, Ruddock etc are brought through.

Standulstermen wrote:
I understand peoples misgivings but im not sure who would be better. A lot will depend on how the likes of Marshall are brought through.

There's no better coach to bring Paul Marshall through, he's Thomas O'Leary's natural successor.....

You're right there. If we're looking for another scrum-half who can't pass consistently well, by god we've got him!

Thats ok boys, with Conor Murray around now, we is saaaawted!!

geoff998rugby wrote:To clarify it may well be that Munster matched an offer from a French club so were not seen to be directly competing with another Provinces i.e either an Irish povince matched the deal or he would be playing for no one in Ireland. This was certaintly the rumour at the time.

Humphreys annoyance was because BJ had shaken on a deal and had then backed out of it. Money was not the issue as Afoa was given a contract considerably more than BJ Botha's although, I believe, not as much as Botha is getting at Munster.

This is in part backed up in so far as Humphreys did not have any ill will towards Munster, only BJ.

I thought it was more to do with the length of the contract as opposed to the amount of money being offered. I'm not sure who got the better deal out of it, botha is injured a lot nowadays but he is very good for bringing on the other props as he is quite a good coach for them. Afoa looks very good in the loose and he is solid in the scrum, if not spectacular, and should cope with most scrums.

Botha agreed a new contract with Humphreys and shook on it, as far as Humphreys was concerned they had an agreement. The money being paid by Munster is way above what he got from Ulster.
Ulster did have serious concerns on Botha re injuries - he seems to be becoming increasing injury prone.

Ulster are delighted with the outcome as Afoa is younger, faster and not as injury prone. (Bit like the Peel/Pienaer situation last year) Botha is a lose in the coaching department,which Afoa doesn't fulfil. They are trying to address that

Botha will be fine at Ravenhill as the circumstances of his departure are not widely known - I don't think my posting them here will change that.

To be honest he is doing the best for himself. A professional has a short career so fair enough. The bottom line is Munster were prepared to pay him more than Ulster, Ulster would have never gone to the figures I am hearing he is getting at Munster.

What gladdens my heart is to hear about his coaching. Munster scrum needs that. Archer, Borlase, Hurley can learn from him.

Exactly Red Stag - McAllister and Court have both been very public in praising Botha for the way he has improved their game. It is alos no coincidence that Ulster have a number of young lads coming through who have benefited from his expertise.

He has built on the foundations laid by Reggie Corrigan and Ulster are starting to reap the benefits

I think BJ will get a good reception at Ravenhill, he was a really good player for us.

However like Geoff says he was increasingly injury prone. Everytime I saw him play last year he ended up hobbling off so I'm not too sad to see him go really.

I don't know if it's luck or genious by Humphreys but he's pulled of another masterstroke with Ofoa and if he and Payne are anywhere near as good as the SH trio were last season then it should be a good season for us.

Geoff - a question. Are Ulster a bit naiive in recruitment/negotiation?

I don't mean that offensively but apparently they've been burnt now by Rush, Peel and Both.

Once bitten, twice shy doesn't seem to hold true.

roddersm wrote:
I don't know if it's luck or genius by Humphreys

A bit of both I reckon. He certaintly has a eye fro a player but lets be honest we would not have Pienaer if Peel had been straight with us.

If Corey Jane had said yes it would be him and Andress and not Afoa and Payne. Albeit that would have freed up a Contract slot for a backrow player.

An outstanding negotiator assist by a fair slice of lady luck is my conclusion.

Well geoff I suppose you can only get lucky so many times. Maybe it's just the salaries we're offering but he does seem to be able to attract some fantastic players. Clearly they're not joining us for the weather....

But based on what your saying none of these players were his first choice?

He wanted Rush, Jane, Andress, Botha and Peel. He didn't get any of them and the replacements turned out to be better.