Is now the right time for a the WRU to focus on North Wales

Today saw the Crusaders RL team withdraw its application to remain in Super League. Not to get hung up on that topic, but there will be yet again no high class sport being played in North Wales. A few years ago the WRU took a step forward in developing rugby in the region by seting up the North Wales academy prodject in partnership with the Canadian RU. This has since gone on to become known as RGC 1404.

On the 19th January RGC1404 went into liquidation but the team has continued to play games. For those of us who have not been keeping an eye here is a list of some of their recent results:

March
Carmarthen Quins 14 v RGC1404 47
RGC 1404 43 v Tonmawr 9

April
RGC 1404 57 v Royal Navy 8
Ospreys U20 10 v RGC1404 71
Pontypool 10 v RGC1404 78

I understand that these results cant be taken at face value as the CQuins, Tonmawr and Pooler teams almost certainly had development players in them. But from checking, Pooler had 11 players who played in the RGC game to face Llanelli the following week. So the standard is at least competitive.

As for player development there are a few players knocking around from the North at the moment. George North and Rob McCusker(Scarlets), Cai Griffiths (O's) and Eifion Lewis Roberts (Toulon). Now i understand that four players does not make a team, but the tallent is there and i am a fan of the idea of the Canadian players being their to bolster the squad, for now. I wouldnt suggest that RGC be added to the Pro12, as i dont believe they are ready yet and i also believe that if any country should get another region it should be Scotland. But would fast tracking them to the Prem for the 2012/2013 season not be the right move for the WRU and Rugby in North Wales, or would the reduction in teams increase the standard to a point where RGC1404 would be whipping boys and serve only to disinfrancise fans in the North, like when Wrexham RFC were placed in a higher division in the 1990's only to be religated?

Thoughts?

My only concern with adding them into the premiership is, with the reduction of teams, where would they fit? One of the regions would be losing out? (allthough admittedly, 10 teams into 4 regions doesn't work out equal anyway....)

I think now could be the perfect time to really do something in North Wales though. Like you say there's talent up there, it's stupid for us to continue to ignore it.

Were would they be based? Wrexham? Bangor?

I'm not sure that there is either the interest from fans or the player base to sustain a professional team in N.Wales. Wrexham and Bangor are fairly small towns and people are more interested in football than rugby.

We def need to do something, RGC can't continue to live off friendlies and expect to increase in competitiveness. I would like to see them brought into the Prem and for some of the regions players who don't get game time (Newton, Prydie, Phillips, Gavin Evans) to be loaned out to them to increase competitiveness (they could be called back immediately to cover at their home region).

The comparison with Wrexham is unfair as they were the best Welsh football club for a long time and only got relegated as they were the first team to be penalised for going into administration (and the S Wales clubs only improved when they had massive investment).

I'm fairly sure that they would play out of Bangor as the WRU has spent a bit of money upgrading it in the past few years and The Racecourse is too big. In regards to it being a Pro team i dont think that is the right idea, more likely a semi pro team.

Also the WRU has invested a lot of money in expanding the academy system up North, with the U16's and U18's being involved with two schools up North. Whats the point of having a good standard of junion an youth rugby if there is no progression other then geting lucky and geting spotted by Sale or The Scarlets. The area needs to have one high level team playing in the Prem.

North Wales has a reasonably big catchment, and has good transport links along the coast (A55 and railway), so the logical location to base a team would be somewhere about half way along the coast - somewhere like Colwyn Bay is close enough to attact the cream of the players from as far east as Wrexham and as far west as Caernarfon and Beaumaris.

Yes, there is the issue that the biggest sporting draws for the area are Liverpool and Man U. Also, if they are playing in a Welsh league, it means every away game means a lot of travelling (and consequent costs), but surely it has to be worth trying to expand the Welsh game out from it's heartland of the south.

dummy_half: I agree in principal but I am not convinced that either the volume or quality of players exist in N.Wales and certainly not the volume of supporters to make it economically viable. There are also strong rivalries between the different villages and towns so trying to get players to band together to form and support one team might be a problem.

I would think that if the WRU want to expand the game then they would pay for a team in the North to travel and for teams to travel to them. As the WRU do make a lot of money and 1/3 of the population live in North Wales its stupid not to be trying to expand North.

I though they had upgraded the Stadium in Wrexham as there home stadium.

This is the WRU's chance to reclaimm the North before it was lost to Rugby League, if they waste this chance they may not get another.

The way I think it should be done is not just have a north region, but have a NORTH and VALLEYS region, playing games between Wrexham and Brdgeend..
The academy would be a combination of RGC1404's Bridgeends and Pontys. with Players coming from these teams to create a new region.

The new region at first should be entered in the BandI cup and Anglo-welsh Cup, to get up to speed before trying to enter the Celtic League for next season.

In regards to Kingshu, this is the problem i see here. People seem to want an all or nothing solution. A pro team with Ponty included or nothing. You cant just put a team up in North Wales and expect people to turn up and watch, even more so if its only 4 for 5 games a season.

I feel the right move is to put a Semi Pro team in the North and let it grow organically. The RGC1404 project started in 07 and it has done well to come this far only playing friendly games. The next step is to take that team and put them in to the Prem and then in 5/6 years think about making the team a pro team if it has reached the required standard. Ponty is another issue all in its own.

I agree with that Coleman. Now there's a lack of info on what's going on up north. Can anyone clarify if RGC is still going? I heard it had gone under. What fixtures do they have (if they're still there)?

I don't think rugby league is a major threat up there. I haven't heard that the Crusaders are getting big crowds and just read that they've dropped out of the Super League on financial grounds. Football isn't the big issue everyone thinks it is. Despite popular opinion football has more participants in south wales than rugby does. We still manage to do reasonably well in rugby. I think the two can coincide.

In my opinion the best way to improve rugby in North Wales is through youth participation. If you get youngsters playing all sorts of sports it benefits them all. The more young athletes about, the better. If a young man finds that by the age of 17 he's over six foot and 15 stone, perhaps footy won't be the best game for him, maybe he can have a go at rugby. Just get the kids interested in sports and get the wru development officers and qualified coaches up there to work with the teams. Just give them the option - some will excel.

A premiership team is a must. As many have said a clear route to full professional rugby is needed for aspiring young rugby players in North Wales. The prem should be the shop window for young talent to attract interest from the regions. I am very worried about the make up of the prem and which clubs are under which regional umbrella. It looks very lobsided to me!

Having said all of this the greatest challenge to the WRU is plain old participation accross the board. Numbers are down and falling. It's been a problem for a long time. It's time to sell the game to the public again as a participation sport. If we don't then no amount of organisational jiggery-pokery will help.

See the reason I would make it a Valleys/North wales team is the concern that North Wales would not grow a large and strong enough Academy or supporter base to challenge the south wales teams or even the likes of Glasgow or Edinburgh.

That for example Connacht, as they are based in a largly none rugby playing area like North Wales,
Connacht is represented by Galwegians RFC and Buccaneers RFC in Division 1B. Connacht's other senior clubs are Galway Corinthians RFC in Division 2 and Connemara RFC who are playing in Division 3.

I don't think a North Wales region would have even this number of feeder clubs in as high a divisions.

This means they will struggle for both players and Supporters, now if the RGC1404 academy joined forces with Ponty's and Bridgeends, you could say it would rival the other regions academys.

There is no point of building a weak team in North Wales, when you could Grow a strong North wales/ Valleys team.

Kingshu - the only prob I see with that is logistical, but I do agree that it would be unwise to start up a full NW region without the foundations in place. Personally I'd like to see a prem team ringfenced for 5 years so that a proper development structure could be put in place. Forget about regions until there are at least 3 or 4 strong NW clubs as you allude to.

I think the valleys issue has to be addressed by the WRU and the Blues in particular. Perhaps more could be done in this respect. Now I'm not very knowledgable about the Blues development work and regional activities but I do hear a lot of valeys folk complaining about being ignored or even just shunning the blues on the basis that "it's just Cardiff." I have family in Treorchy who support the Ospreys just because they can't bring themselves to support a team based in Cardiff. Can any Blues folk enlighten us on the wider work of their region?

I thought that RGC 1404 had based itself in Colwyn Bay, I thought they were going to be based in Wrexham but decided that the Racecourse was too big, and then the Crusaders moved into Wrexham.

I think there's more than enough players up there, especially if they can stop the drain of players to RL clubs. And I think if the WRU can find a bit of money to fund the club and run promotional campaigns to encourage fans and particularly kids to attend games.

I think there are a few strong NW teams who just lack anywhere to go (no route to a prem or anything and little funding to keep NW players in the North), Flint and Mold are a very good side - especially at youth level, I've heard Bangor are ok.

I also think if you Start a Valleys and NW region it will disenfranchise most, and a lot of the games will end up being played in Ponty or more likely Bridgend (and look how disenfranchised most valleys fans were when most of the Warriors games were played in Bridgend). Also the logistics of paying rent/owning 2 stadiums would be prohibitive. As Coleman says start small, put them in the prem in a season or so, get competitive games up there for 5/6 years, gradually bring the support through and bring people round to the concept. And if you can encourage loans from the regions of players like Prydie, Phillips, Lawerence and Gavin Evans then these more recognised players will help.

I didn't realise they had gone into liquidation, very little coverage on it.
As for is now the right time - It was the right time Donkeys Years ago and the WRU done nothing so don't expect anything off Pickering an Co

It is a shame that North Wales doesn't have a Union prescence of some sort. They love the sport up there but the problem they have is accessibility. I guess thats the reason why Super League's Crusaders didn't work. Wrexham is too close to the english border and other league sides and too difficult for those from mid-north wales to get to.

If the WRU continues to ignore a third of the population it will just prove that the goldfish bowl mindset is as strong as ever.
One or two have said that North Wales is not a rugby playing area but if you look at this list http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/northwalesrugbyunion/a/council-and-club-contacts-18518.html you will see that we have numerous clubs with most having a senior sides and numerous age grade sides.

The problem we have here in the North is the fact that the WRU will do nothing to encourage sides here in fact they seem to do everything in their power to ensure that North Wales sides cant make progress.
Here is one example on how they nearly caused my local club to throw the towel in. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6670521.stm
It would be great if I had a region here commuting down south week in week out is costing me a small fortune and I'm sure that a region up here would be very well supported.

Wonder which club Kingshu supports... Only problem being is Ponty and Bridgend are already each part of a Region. A strong rugby base can be built up over the next decade if it reaches the whole of North Wales. They could play a few different stadiums perhaps.

The story with RGC is that at the moment is:

Rygbi Gogledd Cymru, the cooperative community interest company, which established and managed the current North Wales Regional Rugby Team, went into liquidation today (19th Jan 2011).

The team has been absorbed into the WRU National Academy and continues to play.

So now the North Wales Rugby Union Council run it much like the old District sides used to be run. They cherry pick all of the best players from the local clubs and put them in with the Canadian lads that are there to play. (I think they're still there)

From there they generate their own fixtures against other teams development XV and the WRU get them fixtures playing Prem sides aswell.

I was wrong in my OP when i said they were playing out of Bangor, they are infact playing out of Parc Eirias in Colwyn Bay. From what i understand, they will have fixtures this season. They are looking for sponsorship aswell. So hopfully they will continue playing as i belive that the North Wales Academy project is the best thing the WRU have done for many years. It wont happen over night but if the WRU and the NWRUC can keep this development path going then we could well see more player playing for the national team like McCusker and North.

Would having a North Wales region mean less money for the current regions? The WRU offload a certain amount of money each year for the 4 regions and if there was another it could mean that less cash for each region, unless of course they offload more money but whether they can do this is obviously a different matter.

True sosban. But with the salary cap now in England some of their clubs will be managing with less money than the Regions and they are managing. If we had 5 Regions then they'd have to rely more on sponsorship, merchandise sales and erm...ticket sales to run.

Wales need to get their 4 regions in order before they tackle a 5th.

For years the IRFU looked after Munster and Leinster. From last season onwards when both have established themselves they increased their funding to Ulster and they should have a good future too. Once thats done Connacht will get seen to.

Wales need to be patient. Get your current system working first.

red_stag North Wales should not be made to pay the penalty just because other regions are not drawing in the crowds.

No Cymroglan they shouldn't.

But is there a market for it?

Is there a suitable place to base them?

Are they competitive enough to compete at that level?

Is there room in schedule for another team?

Are Scotland or Italy not entitled to a 3rd team before Wales gets a 5th?

The whole thing seems a non runner IMO. I see them competing against growing teams who the WRU have put a lot of resources into.

But is there a market for it?
Is there room in schedule for another team?
Are they competitive enough to compete at that level?
Is there a suitable place to base them?

There is a market for it because there wont be any competition from any other major sport.
Yes there is room for another team even if it means taking one of the poorly supported region from the south, what you need to understand is that the four existing regions are at least three hours away. Wales is a small nation that cant afford to ignore a third of the population.
They never will be competitive enough unless they are allowed to play at the highest level.
Suitable place to play,, Bangor City are in the process of building a new stadium all it needs is forward planning,

Which region would be scrapped?

I can't help but notice your "Location: Anglesey" and wonder if this has a bearing in your thinking.

I can't see it being a good decision personally looking in. With hindsight yes but for now the WRU need to ensure the current regions are well run.

red_stag
The four regions are all within a few miles of each other and that is one of the problems you then have a third of the population without a region.
You seem to forget that it's the Welsh Rugby Union and it's their duty to ensure that every child in Wales has a equal opportunity of being able to become a professional rugby player.

Which region would be scrapped?
It does not bother me which region would be scrapped if it means that the Welsh International side is able to select players from every corner of Wales, it would only be a small sacrifice for a stronger Wales.

Cymroglan wrote: It's the Welsh Rugby Union and it's their duty to ensure that every child in Wales has a equal opportunity of being able to become a professional rugby player.

That most certainly is not their duty.

red_stag wrote:

Cymroglan wrote: It's the Welsh Rugby Union and it's their duty to ensure that every child in Wales has a equal opportunity of being able to become a professional rugby player.

That most certainly is not their duty.

Don't dwell on words you knew full well what I meant. A North Wales child adult male female should have the same opportunities as their southern counterpart.
How far are you away from a region three hours like me ? or are you living close enough to a first class rugby side that you don't know what it's like to be without one.

People you're jumping the gun. There isnt the space for a North Wales pro region at the moment, you cant just put a team there and expect it to work. This is why i think the RGC system is working, its growing at an organic rate, the local players have been slowly blooded at a higher level. Now its time for them to be enterd in to a league system.

As stated in the OP. If there is any expansion Scotland should get the next team, but there should be a place in the semi pro Welsh Prem for a North Wales distric/regional side to develop the players up there. Then in 5/6 years look at it and decide if the infrastructure is there to suport a pro team.

Wonder which club Kingshu supports...

Ulster

I don't think the League has spacce for any more teams, I commented on 606 before that Wales will prob want a 5th team and Scotland a 3rd, Italy could have 2 more teams in waiting in a year or two, were are they all going to fit?

I thought before if italy have 4 teams they may leave the Celtic League and Creat a central European League with there 4/maybe 5 teams and SC 1880 Frankfurt and the Wild Rugby Academy with Bucureşti Oaks and another Romanian side

Kingshu - If in the future the Italians, Scots, and Welsh increse their number of regions/clubs then maybe there would be justification in a two teired league. With the top 8-10 teams in the current league staying in the top teir and the new sides (3-4 of them) and bottom 2-4 sides making up the lower teir. This would then allow the likes of Romania to have a chance at entering a side or two in the years following.

Personally I do think that a side does need to be set up in the North, and that the WRU should make provisions to ensure that it can be kept running for atleast 3 or 4 seasons. Even if that is just at the Welsh Prem level, and then openning up a path to the regional scene if they do pull in the fans and appear to be able to keep afloat on their own two feet (or as much as any of the other regions are now). Also during that time I believe that the other regions will be more financially stable.

I doubt if the Celtic League will ever be two tiered, as H-cup is Union based
imagine if the 2 Italians/Scots were in the 2nd tier and got in the H-cup and there are some top tier teams that can't,

A central Eurpeon League would work better with Itialians,Germans and Romanians. That would leave space for 2 teams (1 Scottish 1 Welsh) in about 5-10 years time, in the celtic league. when a North Wales region may be ready, and the Scots may have a 3rd team ready.

The Itialians are aready planning on 4 teams, the Germans are trying with Wild Titans, and maybe a northern Academy/team in future, and Bucureşti Oaks plus maybe another if Romania can support and build it in time

again this is all 5-15 years in future.

I think thats the point Kingshu - nobodies talking about parachuting in a 5th region now, but developing one and giving it support while it grows at semi-pro level so that in 5-15years (when anything could happen) there'll be a review to see if the NW region has generated the support, sponsorship and competitiveness to become a region and also IF there is space for it to enter a pro league.

But the least that should be done is for the WRU to support the RGC 1404 team and build it's Academy up so that any promising player/youngsters in NW have a route to good level rugby.

Kingshu "Ulster" - ok good for you. Have you spent any time in Wales though? Have you been in and around the areas where you're calling for a 5th team? (valleys) Do you have Welsh rugby friends from Pontypridd or Bridgend? Have you played rugby here?

RGC seems to be working slowly as the OP has pointed out. As for the expansion of the Celtic League, perhaps teams just play each other once. Home one year, away the next. Can't really see room for more than 15 teams though. And I expect Wales and Italy to have an extra Region ready to enter before Scotland do.

We need top level pro rugby at every corner of the country to expand. Every other major nation has apart from us. I'd have thought you could see the advantages of that Kingshu.