Is now the right time for a ... Britsh common second division?

Technically it would be hopeless for the ML (or should I say Pro-12) as they don't operate a league -but they should be able to monitor, promote and develop players.

Sitting between the Jeff and Nat Division 1.

Six English fully-professional teams and two sides from each of the other home nations.

Why not three from each country in interests of equity?I for one miss seeing
aot of sides that were big names in the past.Gala,Hawick.St.Belvedere,Mosely,Blackheath,Abertillery naming just a few .
I know many of these no longer exist,but for example when a Div 2 has a realistic chance of making the Aviva.
They are told something like,even if you qualify you can`t be promoted because of the ground,catering Facilitites,parking facitilities whatever.
Yes I know that is stating the extreme but teams like Penzance Pirates have been knocking for years.
It seems the same teams go up and down like yo-yos.

You fail to appreciate the set up. Its about tiers. Look at the Irish model.

Clubs - Made up of Club teams nationwide. They compete against each other in the All Ireland League. The best players are selected to the provincial team.

Provincial - Made up of 4 provinces. They compete in the Pro 12. The best players are selected to the national team.

International - The Irish National Team.

In addition I would say that the Heineken Cup is a tournament that straddles the Provincial and International levels. The British and Irish Cup straddles the Club and Provincial Levels.

Its a system yielding results IMO. People will say "Oh wheres more Grandslams" etc but Irish rugby has evolved from a very dark and lonely place under this system.

If the "British common 2nd div" thing were to spoil that I'd say no way.

Same with us Red- we generally have 4 now...club, ITM (Provincial), Sxv and AB's.

Each is a clear cut upgrade to the next and the beauty of it is it lets our coaches know exactly what level a players is at as it shows when they move between each.

Huge benefits selection wise, and with it cream usually rises where it should...

Our sytems wouldn't work in England or France. Their club game has the resources and tradition to succeed with some tweaks.

I can see, respect and admire the Irish model.

To be honest it would probably work better on the British mainland. Six English, four Welsh and two Scottish sides then?

Donald duck was a good example of the level thing.

Last year was plucked straight out of ITM where he was playing unbelievably well. Easily the best 10 in the month prior to the AI's.

Then jumped two levels into the harsh end of the Hong Kong match and suffered big time.

This year back at sxv played ok, nothing great, just ok.

So hes sorted. Excellent ITM player good sxv which is why I think he'd go well in the NH club scene.

The good thing about having distinctly clear levels is it acts as a filter. If you have your hybrid setups where players from different levels are coming together then how do you know if the player, or the team is playing well?

The other thing is the comps cross over at the right time- superxv starts- nothing else is on (well... clubs are at it). Then ITM starts and Internationals are on. By that time the filters have been applied- players go up to tests or down to ITM from Sxv, so both can go ahead independently.

Works well.

In Ireland it also works great for player management.

Take Paul O'Connell. He will play maybe 10 International games and 8 European games in a season. To compensate he will play about 5 Magners League games.

A squad player will play 15-16 Magners League games, maybe once or twice in Europe and a few appearances at club level.

And then there are guys who'll play loads of club rugby and games for Munster A team. They might step up to play a few Magners games.

Keeps things ok.

To be honest Portnoys; the only difference between your idea and the British and Irish Cup is the format of the competition. You're trying to plug a hole that has already been plugged.

British and Irish Cup; The top Scottish club sides, the top Welsh club sides, English championship sides and Irish Provincial 'A' teams. And the fact it's a Cup allows the established second-tier club competitions in England, Scotland and Wales to continue, which would surely be more popular with fans.

Just seems like another dig at the Magners to me, especially with your second line. A reworded dig, but a dig nonetheless.

As Notch says, it's already been done and it's called the B&I Cup

No, it isn't. How would promotion to and from the Jeff work? Or would you shut up shop?

It works well with the Championship and Championship sides playing in the B&I Cup.

Leaving aside the premise of the article I'm curious to know why now would be the right time? This would suggest it was always a foregone conclusion and all that is in question is the timing.

Taylorman with due respect Stephen Donald played in some of the weaker All Black sides in 2008 when the All Blacks had serious injury problems.
True in Hong Kong he came on to close out the match .missed a kickable penalty and failed a touch.
BUT Dan Carter had missed a couple earlier,and if the Aussies had kicked all there penalties,it would`nt have been close.
I don`t particularly like the man but in fairness he is a tidy player,probably no worse than Crudon or Slade at present in there development.
None of these is Dan Carter,but like those who tried to replace johnny Wilkinson 2003 untilToby Flood no one was good enough and England Rugby suffered.
IF he had played in the Full Srength sides,his confidence would have been boosted by a few wins,instead of losses to teams like France and SA 2009.

Yes but Donalds been around for years, had his ups and downs. I was just saying superxv is about right for his standard. I think hes a good player too, just not a regular AB as hes not achieved the AB standard when playing at the level enough and in a couple of superxv outings this year had awful matches.

Cruden and certainly Slade just havnt played enough to be 'classified' in the same way. Both are young and work in progress. Theyll go with Slade being Carter-like as it provides continuity through the 80 minutes.

Carter will need to turn his game up though as I reckon he's labouring a bit. Tidy as he always is but I've doubts about his use of space at the moment. Does enough. As he does. But hes been better and needs to be this year.

Cooper for one is stealing his limelight at the moment.

I have to agree, poor Donald has suffered when playing at AB level, he just does not cut it there. He is a hard working lad but I feel the nerves get to him especially when kicking. Seeing him with the Chiefs and Waikato you can see why he was in favour but stepping up that extra level hits him psychologically I think.

Portnoy "I can see, respect and admire the Irish model."

The Welsh model is the same
Clubs>Regional>International

it just sounds like someone who is regionally disfranchised, and wants the old Clubs playing bigger teams again. You have to accept that the clubs are all now feeder clubs to regions.

If Wales want to grow the regions, they shouldn't even have the Clubs in the BandI cup, it should be Dragons 'A', Ospreys 'A' Blues 'A' and Scarlet 'A' teams entered.

The place for the Welsh Clubs is in the Welsh Prem.

But with regionalisation and the creation of Superclubs rather than regions, this was always going to be a problem, clubs should be ok feeding a region. What they are not happy about is a Club feeding a superclub.

Kingshu - in fairness I think the only people who look at the regions as superclubs are either outsiders (i.e. English, Irish, Scots), or fans of other regions trying to have a dig at their rivals. I think if you ask the majority of the fans of the regions whether they are a region or a superclub they would say region. We have copied the Irish model and are trying to make it work, give it enough time and it will, especially as the older generation (those who can properly remember pre-regionalism) pass on and the younger (born/started following post regionalism) start to make up the majority of the support.

I was just playing devil's advocate with teh last paragraph,

I do think that Welsh clubs place is in the Welsh prem, I don't think they should be in the BandI cup, (but if this is what the WRU want, not my place to say) instead it should be regional A sides. Another think is people saying some Clubs should be entered in the Almin, I really disagree with this idea, what would happen if llanelli met Scarlets in it?

Some people miss the Clubs and want them playing again at a higher level, but they'll have to accept that Club level is the welsh prem, if you want a higher level of rugby you have to follow the regions.

Don't understand this idea at all?

Presumably the 6 English teams would be vying for promotion to the AP/ relegation to ND1, whereas the Irish provincial A teams could neither be promoted to the P12 nor relegated to the AIL. So in effect the English teams could be fighting for promotion/relegation but playing against some teams with absolutely nothing to play for. That would be unfair on the contending teams if they just happened to get a favourable draw against non-English opposition at the end of the season. There would also be the anomalous situation where say the top English team could be in 7th place team and get promoted or alternatively the bottom English team could be in 6th place and get relegated!

The idea is presumably to improve the standard of competition below the AP, by having more non-English participation, but IMO that could only work if every team were competing for the same prize - i.e. promotion to the AP. The IRFU (say) could be interested in the idea if they were allowed to have a proper "exiles" team, without any agreements on English player quotas with the RFU. Essentially they would be a fifth Irish "province" operating in the English league.

Kingshu - I think the Neath and Ospreys spat, coupled with Neath pretty much dominating the Welsh Prem for a while lead to calls for them to be able to progress as a club. It would seem that the new Welsh Prem. idea of a team having to be part of a region, and not an individual should smooth things out again.

Also If Llanelli RFC met the Scarlets in the Amlin I think the Scarlets would probably end up losing.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also If Llanelli RFC met the Scarlets in the Amlin I think the Scarlets would probably end up losing.

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But wouldn't the Scarlets just call up Llanellis best players?

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also If Llanelli RFC met the Scarlets in the Amlin I think the Scarlets would probably end up losing.

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But wouldn't the Scarlets just call up Llanellis best players?

Or would Llanelli recall the players that are on regional duty????

See, this is where it always seems to me like the Welsh don't really... well its a bit strange. Surely Llanelli don't get anymore a say in preventing their players playing for their region than the Scarlets get in preventing their players playing for Wales?

Notch - It was tongue in cheek mate. From what I can gather the pecking order of player selection goes something like National, Regional and then Club.

I see, yeah. Thats the point. But I was baffled a while back when the Ospreys made out they couldn't call up a prop from within their region. That didn't make any sense at all

Imagine though if Ponty met the Blues, or Neath met the Ospreys.
Those could be intresting.
Especially if Blues or Ospreys tried calling up soem Ponty or Neath players before the game.

I've changed my mind they should be in the Almin.

and then they'd be playing against the Dragons, the Club region, lines would get really blurred.